Why Rank?

[Bill Mattocks]

A Piece of Colored Ribbon | Randy Pennington

Every leader struggles with how to engage people to continually accomplish more. The answer could be as easy as a piece of colored ribbon.

www.penningtongroup.com

 

[Mider]

Colored belt distribution is an unregulated industry. Belt awards in any art are highly subjective which means anyone's belt is not a great standard to evaluate them. Their history and background are better ways.

And there are a lot of arts that don't even do belts, that produce better quality martial artists than those that do.

Compare that to college degrees and military ranks and awards, both are regulated. Are there fakes out there, sure, but like Instructor said, figuring out fake military service or college experience is kind of easy (these places keep records and have to maintain standards).

There are lots of people out there with multiple black belts. In my view the more black belts someone has, the more suspect they are.

If you had one black belt in one art, I think that says a lot more than if you collect them.

How about kung fu? The only purpose of belts in CMA is to hold your gut in and avoid hernias when doing intensive exercise.

I think colored belts are a thing of the past.

I agree with you to a point. But if someone has a black belt in judo or BJJ it tends to be regulated

in other arts not so much. But then we can get into what makes someone a master or expert. The ability to fight, teach, background?

 

[Hot Lunch]

I agree with you to a point. But if someone has a black belt in judo or BJJ it tends to be regulated

Not necessarily. I know five judo dojos in my area. Two are affiliated with USJA, and one with USA Judo. Of the remaining two, one is independent and the other is affiliated with IFJA (International Freestyle Judo Alliance) - an association not recognized by the IJF. So we're 3 for 5 in my area for Judo.

in other arts not so much. But then we can get into what makes someone a master or expert. The ability to fight, teach, background?

I was involved in a pretty heated debate on Reddit about this: the importance of being affiliated with an association or federation. Some believe that it's important, others don't.

I'm of the mind that it is. However, this doesn't just pertain to martial arts. For example, if you look at the so-called "pimp preachers" - like Creflo Dollar, Joel Olsteen, and the late Eddie Long - they tend to be Baptist, non-denominational, or any other denomination that has a congregational polity (as opposed to an episcopal polity). This doesn't mean that those denominations of Christianity are bad. But what it does mean is that is that the pastors of these churches have no bishop, elder, archbishop, presiding bishop, metropolitan, patriarch, pope, or whatever above them to answer to. Hence, pimp preachers have the freedom to do pimp preacher things unchecked.

That's why I check for associations when selecting a dojo.

 

[Hanshi]

There are lots of people out there with multiple black belts. In my view the more black belts someone has, the more suspect they are.

I disagree with this statement for a number of reasons. Primarily it's because of the saying, "a kick is a kick and a punch is a punch". If you can do a snap kick in ma #1 then you can do the same kick in art #2. Getting rank in one art makes it easier (often) to get rank in another separate art. Plus a mixture of arts broadens one's field of knowledge and ability. One grandmaster who founded an organization - large and well known - welcomed any martial arts and they had access to high ranking teachers of quite a few arts. In fact my grandmaster recommended that if you had a shodan (at least) in one art you should get rank in at least one more art for a well rounded course.

If you had one black belt in one art, I think that says a lot more than if you collect them.

True, as stated, if collecting is the reason behind doing it. But then I'm not a collector and do not know anyone who is into this.

I think colored belts are a thing of the past.

I don't think so, at least not as some sort of "sea change". Some schools/organizations may elect to trim the steps to black belt. But then the popularity of colored belts is still with us especially with the younger crowd.

 

[Mider]

Not necessarily. I know five judo dojos in my area. Two are affiliated with USJA, and one with USA Judo. Of the remaining two, one is independent and the other is affiliated with IFJA (International Freestyle Judo Alliance) - an association not recognized by the IJF. So we're 3 for 5 in my area for Judo.

I was involved in a pretty heated debate on Reddit about this: the importance of being affiliated with an association or federation. Some believe that it's important, others don't.

I'm of the mind that it is. However, this doesn't just pertain to martial arts. For example, if you look at the so-called "pimp preachers" - like Creflo Dollar, Joel Olsteen, and the late Eddie Long - they tend to be Baptist, non-denominational, or any other denomination that has a congregational polity (as opposed to an episcopal polity). This doesn't mean that those denominations of Christianity are bad. But what it does mean is that is that the pastors of these churches have no bishop, elder, archbishop, presiding bishop, metropolitan, patriarch, pope, or whatever above them to answer to. Hence, pimp preachers have the freedom to do pimp preacher things unchecked.

That's why I check for associations when selecting a dojo.

I said tends to be…

 

[Hot Lunch]

Cheap and fake and easy to spot sure, but there is no quality control in the colored belts industry, unlike the Ivy League.

You mean Ivy League schools have curriculums to evaluate their students against for advancement through the school, and martial arts schools don't have that for belts? Interesting.

Some arts like to pretend their black belts are worth more than others, but none of them matters in the real world, except in certain places.

So there's no colleges or universities that believe their degrees are worth more than degrees from other colleges and universities?

Black belts are a personal thing. Outside that nobody cares. It's 2023.

Nobody cares about your college degree either.

I don't think it's a fair comparison, any black belts vs. real military recognition or accredited academic success.

But it is.

If you earn a black belt, you now have a credential. Same with a college degree. But if you simply purchase the belt or diploma, you may have the physical object, but you do not have the credential. People like having credentials.

 

[Steve]

You mean Ivy League schools have curriculums to evaluate their students against for advancement through the school, and martial arts schools don't have that for belts? Interesting.


So there's no colleges or universities that believe their degrees are worth more than degrees from other colleges and universities?


Nobody cares about your college degree either.


But it is.

If you earn a black belt, you now have a credential. Same with a college degree. But if you simply purchase the belt or diploma, you may have the physical object, but you do not have the credential. People like having credentials.

I think I’m tracking here but not sure. What’s the difference between a credential and a diploma or a black belt?

And I might be wrong, but I think the concept of accreditation is being overlooked in the belt vs diploma stuff.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

But if someone has a black belt in judo or BJJ it tends to be regulated

I'm not sure what you mean by regulated. In BJJ, someone is recognized as a black belt if they have been awarded that rank by someone who has the necessary rank to do so (generally a 2nd degree black belt). There is no governing body in charge of who is a legitimate black belt. (The IBJJF is a for-profit private company in the business of running tournaments and they make some extra bucks charging exorbitant fees to register ranks for those who want to compete in their tournaments, but they are in no way an arbiter of who is a legitimate BJJ black belt.)

 

[Hot Lunch]

I think I’m tracking here but not sure. What’s the difference between a credential and a diploma or a black belt?

If you earn a PhD, you can burn the diploma. Doesn't change the fact that you earned a doctorate, doesn't change the fact that you're still "Doctor Smith." Same thing with earning a black belt. You're still a shodan, regardless of what you do with the physical belt.

The belts and the diplomas are not the credentials themselves. They represent the credentials.

And I might be wrong, but I think the concept of accreditation is being overlooked in the belt vs diploma stuff.

Association/federation membership. If I earn a black belt from a USJA dojo, other judo dojos may never have heard of my dojo or instructor; but those other dojos - be they USJA, USJF, USA Judo, or any other IJF recognized association - see that it's from USJA, and they will recognize that credential.

 

[Hot Lunch]

I'm not sure what you mean by regulated. In BJJ, someone is recognized as a black belt if they have been awarded that rank by someone who has the necessary rank to do so (generally a 2nd degree black belt). There is no governing body in charge of who is a legitimate black belt. (The IBJJF is a for-profit private company in the business of running tournaments and they make some extra bucks charging exorbitant fees to register ranks for those who want to compete in their tournaments, but they are in no way an arbiter of who is a legitimate BJJ black belt.)

Doing my research before deciding to train where I do now, everything I've read says to make sure that the lineage of the professors trace back to the Gracie family. I have two professors, and they both go back to Carlson Gracie. I don't know if that's the "official" determination of what makes a BJJ black belt legit, but that was the best thing I could find to go on.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Doing my research before deciding to train where I do now, everything I've read says to make sure that the lineage of the professors trace back to the Gracie family. I have two professors, and they both go back to Carlson Gracie. I don't know if that's the "official" determination of what makes a BJJ black belt legit, but that was the best thing I could find to go on.

There is actually one other legit lineage of BJJ that goes back to Luiz França and Oswaldo Fadda rather than the Gracies. The Gracie lineage is more widespread, but as far as I can tell there is no substantial difference between the two at this point.

(BTW, your full lineage actually traces back to Carlos Gracie and Helio Gracie, since they were Carlson's teachers. Before that Carlos learned from Mitsuyo Maeda and possibly Donato Pires, but at that point the art was still Judo and had not started the transformation into BJJ. So it's pretty reasonable to start the lineage off with Carlos or Carlos + Helio.)

Maybe it's just semantics, but I wouldn't call being able to trace your lineage back to the Gracies or to França/Fadda as a matter of regulation with regard to rank. I'd call it more a matter of just identifying what art you actually are practicing/have a rank in. But that's why I asked what you meant by "regulation", since I'm not that interested in arguing about terminology.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

There is actually one other legit lineage of BJJ that goes back to Luiz França and Oswaldo Fadda rather than the Gracies. The Gracie lineage is more widespread, but as far as I can tell there is no substantial difference between the two at this point.

(BTW, your full lineage actually traces back to Carlos Gracie and Helio Gracie, since they were Carlson's teachers. Before that Carlos learned from Mitsuyo Maeda and possibly Donato Pires, but at that point the art was still Judo and had not started the transformation into BJJ. So it's pretty reasonable to start the lineage off with Carlos or Carlos + Helio.)

Maybe it's just semantics, but I wouldn't call being able to trace your lineage back to the Gracies or to França/Fadda as a matter of regulation with regard to rank. I'd call it more a matter of just identifying what art you actually are practicing/have a rank in. But that's why I asked what you meant by "regulation", since I'm not that interested in arguing about terminology.

BTW, I have a little more commentary regarding BJJ lineage in this old blog post. for anyone who is interested.

 

[Mider]

I'm not sure what you mean by regulated. In BJJ, someone is recognized as a black belt if they have been awarded that rank by someone who has the necessary rank to do so (generally a 2nd degree black belt). There is no governing body in charge of who is a legitimate black belt. (The IBJJF is a for-profit private company in the business of running tournaments and they make some extra bucks charging exorbitant fees to register ranks for those who want to compete in their tournaments, but they are in no way an arbiter of who is a legitimate BJJ black belt.)

im Out of this convo, it’s pointless

 

[Tony Dismukes]

There is actually one other legit lineage of BJJ that goes back to Luiz França and Oswaldo Fadda rather than the Gracies. The Gracie lineage is more widespread, but as far as I can tell there is no substantial difference between the two at this point.

(BTW, your full lineage actually traces back to Carlos Gracie and Helio Gracie, since they were Carlson's teachers. Before that Carlos learned from Mitsuyo Maeda and possibly Donato Pires, but at that point the art was still Judo and had not started the transformation into BJJ. So it's pretty reasonable to start the lineage off with Carlos or Carlos + Helio.)

Maybe it's just semantics, but I wouldn't call being able to trace your lineage back to the Gracies or to França/Fadda as a matter of regulation with regard to rank. I'd call it more a matter of just identifying what art you actually are practicing/have a rank in. But that's why I asked what you meant by "regulation", since I'm not that interested in arguing about terminology.

@Hot Lunch - Apologies - you responded to my post replying to Mider and I got confused and thought that you had made the original post I was replying to. The comment regarding what "regulation" means should have been directed to Mider.

 

[Hot Lunch]

@Hot Lunch - Apologies - you responded to my post replying to Mider and I got confused and thought that you had made the original post I was replying to. The comment regarding what "regulation" means should have been directed to Mider.

I'm in the same boat as you.

The people who started the conversation on what's "regulated" and what isn't, and what exactly they mean by that word, don't seem to want to talk about it.

I train in Shotokan at an ISKF dojo. That ISKF affiliation assures that I'm being trained in accordance with ISKF standards, those same standards being what students at all ISKF dojos are held to, and are established - and can only be changed - by Hiroyoshi Okazaki.

I would call that being "regulated."

If they don't, then they obviously mean something else by the word.

 

[Oily Dragon]

You mean Ivy League schools have curriculums to evaluate their students against for advancement through the school, and martial arts schools don't have that for belts? Interesting.

I guess I meant that. But there is a big difference between curriculum of some martial arts organization, and a modern scholarly program.

So there's no colleges or universities that believe their degrees are worth more than degrees from other colleges and universities?

Competition among post secondary schools is always there, but that doesn't really factor into legitimacy.

They all have to meet minimum standards to qualify. Which I think is the heart of this matter. Minimum standards.

Nobody cares about your college degree either.

Well that depends on the degree, and you.

The best paying jobs go to college graduates. They definitely don't go to black belts.

But it is.

If you earn a black belt, you now have a credential. Same with a college degree. But if you simply purchase the belt or diploma, you may have the physical object, but you do not have the credential. People like having credentials.

But now you're suggesting all credentials are the same.

A black belt is the same as a college degree? Accreditation matters.

A black belt is a piece of cloth.

 

[Oily Dragon]

I would call that being "regulated."

If they don't, then they obviously mean something else by the word.

It's regulated vs. self-regulation, dude.

There's a whole world of difference.

And I'll posit, self regulation has ruined many martial arts.

 

[Hot Lunch]

The best paying jobs go to college graduates.

No. Just, no. I have an MBA. My salary is barely into the "six figures" (a phrase that hasn't really been impressive since the 90's), but I can make more money right now if I quit my job and go work on and oil rig or the railroad tracks alongside people who only have high school diplomas (if that).

They definitely don't go to black belts.

Nor do they go to Eagle Scouts. Does that really diminish the accomplishment?

But now you're suggesting all credentials are the same.

No, I'm not. I'm saying that concept of "my credential is better than yours" is not unique to martial arts.

A black belt is the same as a college degree? Accreditation matters.

A black belt is a piece of cloth.

The black belt is not analogous to a college degree. It's analogous to a diploma.

To clarify: when you graduate from college, that framed thing hanging on your wall is NOT a degree. It's a diploma. The degree is not a physical object.

The black belt is a piece of cloth, just like the diploma is a piece of paper.

Your dan ranking is what is analogous to the college degree.

 

[Hot Lunch]

It's regulated vs. self-regulation, dude.

There's a whole world of difference.

And I'll posit, self regulation has ruined many martial arts.

I'm not sure how it's "self-regulation" if kanchos are held accountable to higher yudansha.

Anyhow, do you agree or disagree with Mider when he says that judo and BJJ tend to be regulated as opposed to other martial arts? If you agree with him, then what's the difference between, say, USA Judo and JKA?

 

[Oily Dragon]

No. Just, no. I have an MBA. My salary is barely into the "six figures" (a phrase that hasn't really been impressive since the 90's), but I can make more money right now if I quit my job and go work on and oil rig or the railroad tracks alongside people who only have high school diplomas (if that).

Like I said, it depends on the person, and the degree.

Comparing your MBA degree to railroad workers, is weird.

Do you really think railroad workers make more money than you? Oil rig workers?

They don't make 6 figures. If they did, everyone would be one.

Nor do they go to Eagle Scouts. Does that really diminish the accomplishment?

Eagle Scouts are at least, an accredited accomplishment, unlike black belts. There are records for that sort of thing.

No, I'm not. I'm saying that concept of "my credential is better than yours" is not unique to martial arts.

But martial arts credentials are worth very little, when it comes to return on investment. Eagle Scout might win you a job, but not a black belt in anything, on a resume.

The black belt is not analogous to a college degree. It's analogous to a diploma.

I understand what you mean but it's still not regulated like diplomas. Diplomas from high school or college are far more regulated.

Diplomas from accredited schools are nothing like any colored belt. It doesn't matter if they are paper or made of horse hair. You don't get the paper without a proper audit.

To clarify: when you graduate from college, that framed thing hanging on your wall is NOT a degree. It's a diploma. The degree is not a physical object.

The black belt is a piece of cloth, just like the diploma is a piece of paper.

Your dan ranking is what is analogous to the college degree.

But at the same time, "dan" ranks are meaningless in 2023. Nobody cares that you're a 34th degree black belt. They probably don't care that you're a 1st degree either. Dan rankings are not post-secondary degrees. Sorry. Martial arts organizations don't have that kind of leverage. None of them.

They might care if you have an MBA, but they're definitely care more if you have a medical, nursing, engineering, or other professional degree from an accredited institution.