Why Rank?

[geezer]

You're still younger than me though.

Great to know that compared to many on this forum I'm still just a kid.

...Guess I'm in good company!

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I'll be 68 in a couple of weeks ...

When I was 69, I still wrestled with 20 years old guys outdoor on the grass. Those were some good old days. When I was 73, I started to reduce the amount of weight that I used to work out.

When Li Ao was 72, he told his 20 years old girlfriend that he no longer wants to see her anymore. He said that he didn't mind being treated as a father image. But he didn't want to be treated as a grandfather image.

 

[rabbittoystory]

Ranks and belts give you goals, keep you hungry for progress, and celebrate your journey. Think of it like getting those high scores in a game it's not everything, but it adds that extra layer of excitement.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I don't care about rank, and I do.

I worked hard to earn my kuru obi, and I truly felt I did earn it. It represented something important to me. I've been a third-degree for nearly five years, and I'm thinking I may not make it to fourth, just because my health and my abilities have declined. In terms of the art I study, I have truly declined. My skills now seem to be more helping others in my dojo.

Does it matter? Not in the larger world. Some people are impressed at work. It doesn't really mean anything, as most martial artists know. The belt doesn't mean I'm a good (or bad) fighter, or that I would be evenly matched with others of the same rank in my dojo, let alone other arts. There's just no apples-to-apples comparison.

Ultimately, I'm happy to have my belt. I notice that kids are motivated by belts and many want to be promoted and will work hard for the next belt.

I'm not going to get upset by it either way. It seems to me that some folks are a lot more upset over the discussion of belts than the belts themselves.

 

[Hot Lunch]

I don't care about rank, and I do.

I worked hard to earn my kuru obi, and I truly felt I did earn it. It represented something important to me. I've been a third-degree for nearly five years, and I'm thinking I may not make it to fourth, just because my health and my abilities have declined. In terms of the art I study, I have truly declined. My skills now seem to be more helping others in my dojo.

Does it matter? Not in the larger world. Some people are impressed at work. It doesn't really mean anything, as most martial artists know. The belt doesn't mean I'm a good (or bad) fighter, or that I would be evenly matched with others of the same rank in my dojo, let alone other arts. There's just no apples-to-apples comparison.

Ultimately, I'm happy to have my belt. I notice that kids are motivated by belts and many want to be promoted and will work hard for the next belt.

I'm not going to get upset by it either way. It seems to me that some folks are a lot more upset over the discussion of belts than the belts themselves.

I'm seeing what appears to be a lot dishonesty. Not from you, but in general when it comes to these discussions.

In particular, once people reach a particular dan grade, they have no intention of seeking further promotion, because rank isn't important to them. The problem though, is that they waited until reaching that particular grade before deciding that "rank isn't important." If getting promoted to the next rank means greater involvement that adversely affects their work/life/family balance outside of martial arts that they are unwilling or unable to commit to, then I wish they'd just come out say that. You see, rank is important to them. Just not the next rank.

The highest rank I can get by showing up to train three times a week is what I will be content with.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I'm seeing what appears to be a lot dishonesty. Not from you, but in general when it comes to these discussions.

In particular, once people reach a particular dan grade, they have no intention of seeking further promotion, because rank isn't important to them. The problem though, is that they waited until reaching that particular grade before deciding that "rank isn't important. If getting promoted to the next rank means greater involvement that adversely affects their work/life/family balance outside of martial arts that they are unwilling or unable to commit to, then I wish they'd just come out say that. You see, rank is important to them. Just not the next rank.

The highest rank I can get by showing up to train three times a week is what I will be content with.

Heh. I flat out refused my black belt test because I didn't feel like taking it, until one day I was handed it and told to wear it. This was for first dan, the rank most people strive to. Rank totally is unimportant to me, and others, it just depends where the motivation goes from extrinsic to intrinsic.

 

[Mider]

As a reasonably newcomer to MT, I have noticed that several threads ultimately end up in discussions (often heated) reagrding people's rank, who they may have studied with or the title they may use.

Why is this aspect of the martial arts so important?

Rank and title is but a small part of the martial arts yet is given to the most discussion. Why is this. Surely the arts themselves are more important than the belts around the waists of those who practice them? Perhaps it's time for more discussion about the arts and not the personalities inviolved within?

Idk man…maybe people want to know that their teacher has spent a significant amount of time training and honing his skill and in certain cases proved his skill and earned his rank so he can teach others

 

[Hot Lunch]

Idk man…maybe people want to know that their teacher has spent a significant amount of time training and honing his skill and in certain cases proved his skill and earned his rank so he can teach others

Agreed.

When the Dodge Viper was released in the early 1990's, it caught a lot of attention. It was a mass market sports coupe with a V10 engine. To the average person who saw that fact that it was a V10, it automatically knocked the Corvette out of the #1 spot for mass market sports coupe. For people who know cars, they were able to look at other specs and see that it wasn't that that simple.

That being said, if the dojo website advertises that the owner is a x-th degree black belt, the experienced martial artist isn't the target for that message. To someone with no prior martial arts experience, the higher x is, the more valuable they believe the training that they receive will be. This isn't unique to martial arts. If you've ever needed to purchase any service, you're going to look at the number of years experience, accolades, etc that they have and take it into consideration. And you might even look at "rank" (i.e., journeyman, craftsman, master, etc - or any other system applicable to the service they provide).

 

[Instructor]

Coming from a military background the word rank to me indicates a hierarchy. The Captain is higher than the Sergeant who is higher than the Private etc. Really in most schools the belt simply indicates proficiency level. It's more like grades in school than ranks.

 

[Hot Lunch]

Coming from a military background the word rank to me indicates a hierarchy. The Captain is higher than the Sergeant who is higher than the Private etc. Really in most schools the belt simply indicates proficiency level. It's more like grades in school than ranks.

It is common for a kaicho to have other yudansha in the assocation that are of a higher dan grade than himself? Because I don't think dan grades exclude the idea of a hierarchy.

 

[Instructor]

It is common for a kaicho to have other yudansha in the assocation that are of a higher dan grade than himself? Because I don't think dan grades exclude the idea of a hierarchy.

Well that is true. Even in our organization we have a formal hierarchy at the top; but the great unwashed masses of students (for which I am one) the only real difference is who teaches and who learns.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Idk man…maybe people want to know that their teacher has spent a significant amount of time training and honing his skill and in certain cases proved his skill and earned his rank so he can teach others

Black belts are a pretty worthless way of proving either time training or skill, especially in today's world where you can buy one online and join circles of other people that did the same, all to maintain some sort of legitimacy.

Don't get me wrong, some people really work for black belt and can do things that will make people objectively point and say, "wow, that's a black belt". The real value there is not the belt, but who gave it to you. And there are plenty of other belt colors who can mop the floor with anyone "ranked" higher than themselves. So black belts are just like anyone else.

I think most black belts, especially the aggressive ones, are paper tigers, because it's just easy to put on on, and that has been proven so often. There's a great scene in "Rising Sun" where Sean Connery points this out.

Doorman: "I'm a black belt"

Connery: "Well of course you are".

 

[Hot Lunch]

Black belts are a pretty worthless way of proving either time training or skill, especially in today's world where you can buy one online and join circles of other people that did the same, all to maintain some sort of legitimacy.

The problem with this logic is that you would have to apply it to any and all organizations where insignia can be purchased by people who didn't earn them. For example, the military.

 

[Instructor]

The problem with this logic is that you would have to apply it to any and all organizations where insignia can be purchased by people who didn't earn them. For example, the military.

Often those stolen valor situations sort themselves out with simple consequence. I suspect a black belt paper tiger situation would be the same. It might work for awhile but eventually it gets sorted.

 

[Oily Dragon]

The problem with this logic is that you would have to apply it to any and all organizations where insignia can be purchased by people who didn't earn them. For example, the military.

That's a problem with the logic?

No martial arts rank out there is a military one. They are all self congratulatory. Like flair.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Often those stolen valor situations sort themselves out with simple consequence. I suspect a black belt paper tiger situation would be the same. It might work for awhile but eventually it gets sorted.

I'm not so sure. Otherwise all the fake black belt masters out there, some of whom make a lot of money, would all have had their asses kicked by now.

I think a lot more get away with it.

 

[Hot Lunch]

That's a problem with the logic?

No martial arts rank out there is a military one. They are all self congratulatory. Like flair.

The military is only one example. If you want a Harvard or Yale diploma, there are people out there who make and sell them too. Cheaper than a pack of cigarettes.

Does that mean a degree from Harvard or Yale means nothing?

 

[Oily Dragon]

The military is only one example. If you want a Harvard or Yale diploma, there are people out there who make and sell them too. Cheaper than a pack of cigarettes.

Does that mean a degree from Harvard or Yale means nothing?

Cheap and fake and easy to spot sure, but there is no quality control in the colored belts industry, unlike the Ivy League.

Some arts like to pretend their black belts are worth more than others, but none of them matters in the real world, except in certain places.

Black belts are a personal thing. Outside that nobody cares. It's 2023.

I don't think it's a fair comparison, any black belts vs. real military recognition or accredited academic success.

 

[Mider]

Black belts are a pretty worthless way of proving either time training or skill, especially in today's world where you can buy one online and join circles of other people that did the same, all to maintain some sort of legitimacy.

Don't get me wrong, some people really work for black belt and can do things that will make people objectively point and say, "wow, that's a black belt". The real value there is not the belt, but who gave it to you. And there are plenty of other belt colors who can mop the floor with anyone "ranked" higher than themselves. So black belts are just like anyone else.

I think most black belts, especially the aggressive ones, are paper tigers, because it's just easy to put on on, and that has been proven so often. There's a great scene in "Rising Sun" where Sean Connery points this out.

Doorman: "I'm a black belt"

Connery: "Well of course you are".

i personally don’t know where you get this, sure you can buy a belt, and then do what? but it’s a silly argument in itself.

who should be teaching then! If he’s not a belt he’s still a master is he not? If he’s not then why would I learn from him?

But personally I think most arguments here are silly….

 

[Oily Dragon]

i personally don’t know where you get this, sure you can buy a belt, and then do what? but it’s a silly argument in itself.

who should be teaching then! If he’s not a belt he’s still a master is he not? If he’s not then why would I learn from him?

But personally I think most arguments here are silly….

Colored belt distribution is an unregulated industry. Belt awards in any art are highly subjective which means anyone's belt is not a great standard to evaluate them. Their history and background are better ways.

And there are a lot of arts that don't even do belts, that produce better quality martial artists than those that do.

Compare that to college degrees and military ranks and awards, both are regulated. Are there fakes out there, sure, but like Instructor said, figuring out fake military service or college experience is kind of easy (these places keep records and have to maintain standards).

There are lots of people out there with multiple black belts. In my view the more black belts someone has, the more suspect they are.

If you had one black belt in one art, I think that says a lot more than if you collect them.

How about kung fu? The only purpose of belts in CMA is to hold your gut in and avoid hernias when doing intensive exercise.

I think colored belts are a thing of the past.