A Reason Why Rank Might Be Important

[Gerry Seymour]

Your confidence is part of the trap that allows incompetent instructors to continue plying their trade and bilking folks out of their money.

So, your assertion is that talk is better evidence of their competence than seeing them in motion. Interesting place to stand, Steve.

Not a snipe. At least not intended to be. You have a blind spot. Its really that simple. When you offer advice. Expert advice, no less, on self defense, you are part of the problem. When you sayyou'reent comfortable, it indicates that this is intentional.

No, you just keep assuming you know inside my head and what I'm capable (and incapable) of. As for your assertion that it's intentional, that's just plain insulting - and apparently meant to be so. I think we can wrap this discussion up now.

 

[Steve]

So, your assertion is that talk is better evidence of their competence than seeing them in motion. Interesting place to stand, Steve.

I don't think I said that at all. I don't see how one is better than the other, if you don't actually understand the subject.

No, you just keep assuming you know inside my head and what I'm capable (and incapable) of. As for your assertion that it's intentional, that's just plain insulting - and apparently meant to be so. I think we can wrap this discussion up now.

I only know what you've shared. And I'm not trying to insult you. I would never offer to go with a friend to offer my expert opinion on aikido, or present myself as an authority on that subject, even though I have more academic knowledge than a lay person by virtue of the many discussions I've read here and my own intellectual curiosity. I've never trained aikido. But this is exactly what you do in many areas. Not just you, but you're the most vocal about it.

 

[drop bear]

Your confidence is part of the trap that allows incompetent instructors to continue plying their trade and bilking folks out of their money.

Not a snipe. At least not intended to be. You have a blind spot. Its really that simple. When you offer advice. Expert advice, no less, on self defense, you are part of the problem. When you sayyou'reent comfortable, it indicates that this is intentional.

By defending the brand they destroy the brand.

Because martial arts is set up to be assessed in such an obscure manner. It becomes very hard to judge real from fake.

So if I can say it works on the street. I allow anyone to say the same claim.

 

[dvcochran]

Yeah I missed the whole stab thread drama. I had a guy at work who came to us complaining he had been beaten up.

I had a look and saw some holes in his t shirt and it wound up he had a sucking chest wound.

And apparently he had been walking around for ten minutes.

Now having said that he wasn't in good shape by the time the ambulance got there.

Where as for me I need a sit down if I cut my finger.

Was he juiced up?

 

[drop bear]

Was he juiced up?

Nah. Probably just a heap of adrenaline from the beating he took.

 

[Steve]

By defending the brand they destroy the brand.

Because martial arts is set up to be assessed in such an obscure manner. It becomes very hard to judge real from fake.

So if I can say it works on the street. I allow anyone to say the same claim.

Sales 101. Here's what I think is the real issue. People become so used to equating A with B that they become unwitting agents of the deception. A guy wants some self defense. He's watched TV and seen the movies. He thinks, "I should train in Martial Arts. I've always wanted to be a samurai, and if I get my black belt, I will be really cool." He's no dummy, so he says to himself, "Self, I should talk to my friend, Frank. He's a black belt in something. Maybe he can point me to a good school." Frank, who has no practical experience in anything other than training Aikido in his dojo, says, "Sure. I'll help you. There are some things you should look for in a good school." Then Frank parrots everything he's ever been taught or told about self defense and good schools. And the guy believes every word of it, without question, because Frank is credible. He's trustworthy, and Frank truly believes he's being helpful. But Frank really doesn't have the experience to tell good information from bad. He is just trusting his sources, whom he believes are credible and trustworthy. It's a circle jerk, really. A lot of well meaning folks passing along information that may or may not be complete bunk.

And yes, I know the response. "But Steve. You can't read my mind." I disagree. I would never knowingly hire a trainer for a management course who has never managed staff. And close doesn't always translate. I would never hire a tennis coach to teach me to play table tennis, even though both involve hitting a small ball with a paddle or racket over a net. And I wouldn't expect a tennis pro to help me find a good table tennis coach.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I don’t think a black belt is something sacred or holy. Not by a long shot. But it should mean something.

No a black belt is not sacred and holy but as you put it, it definitely means something. If you had to earn it that is. In the world of martial arts they say a black belt is not a master or even an expert, although that would depend on how you got it and the standards you had to meet to get it, but I would say its just the beginning. Once you make black belt the real training and the real learning begins. That's why I believe it is important to get your first black belt provided that your main style is a style that has a ranking system with a black belt. That way when you make black belt, you take your training to the next level, the next level being that you start to learn the real stuff.

 

[oftheherd1]

The belt hierarchy is asian.... originating at the Kodokan. it has a definite class system.
with it comes a preloaded system of social hierarchy that is partly the sempai and cohai thing. and lining up by class rank.

in this western alternative.
there is no kyu/dan grade
there is no Mudansha
there is no Yudansha
there is no Kodansha

it is curriculum taught by semester units.

I find the concept interesting, but maybe in need of polishing. In a loose paraphrase of @skribs and @Dirty Dog, your rank system and the "Asian" rank system both look like a rose and so smell like a rose. They seem to be attempting to accomplish many of the same things.

Feel free to disagree.

 

[JR 137]

No a black belt is not sacred and holy but as you put it, it definitely means something. If you had to earn it that is. In the world of martial arts they say a black belt is not a master or even an expert, although that would depend on how you got it and the standards you had to meet to get it, but I would say its just the beginning. Once you make black belt the real training and the real learning begins. That's why I believe it is important to get your first black belt provided that your main style is a style that has a ranking system with a black belt. That way when you make black belt, you take your training to the next level, the next level being that you start to learn the real stuff.

I view shodan as being proficient in the basics. You know them and can use them at a functional level. You can use them effectively under a few different situations. When you’re sparring and or fighting, you can use what you’ve been taught. Not at a mastery of the techniques level, but a holding your own level.

Beyond that is being able to use those techniques under more and more circumstances and they’re progressively more effective.

All IMO.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

.

 

[skribs]

I find the concept interesting, but maybe in need of polishing. In a loose paraphrase of @skribs and @Dirty Dog, your rank system and the "Asian" rank system both look like a rose and so smell like a rose. They seem to be attempting to accomplish many of the same things.

Feel free to disagree.

I am anosmic. Therefore I don't think anything smells like anything.

 

[Steve]

I view shodan as being proficient in the basics. You know them and can use them at a functional level. You can use them effectively under a few different situations. When you’re sparring and or fighting, you can use what you’ve been taught. Not at a mastery of the techniques level, but a holding your own level.

Beyond that is being able to use those techniques under more and more circumstances and they’re progressively more effective.

All IMO.

That's a blue belt in bjj, or possibly a purple belt.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I view shodan as being proficient in the basics. You know them and can use them at a functional level. You can use them effectively under a few different situations. When you’re sparring and or fighting, you can use what you’ve been taught. Not at a mastery of the techniques level, but a holding your own level.

Beyond that is being able to use those techniques under more and more circumstances and they’re progressively more effective.

All IMO.

Exactly. That's why I view it as all the more important to at least get a first degree black belt in my primary martial art, provided my primary martial art has a black belt. If you're not going to be a master at least be proficient in the basics and at least be able to hold your own.

Of course if you do want to go on to become a master you have to get to that level where you're proficient and can hold your own first.

Then after making 1st dan, you go beyond and learn to use your techniques under more circumstances and make them more effective, that is how you go to the next level.

 

[PhotonGuy]

That's a blue belt in bjj, or possibly a purple belt.

Generally speaking, a purple belt in bjj is considered equivalent to the average black belt in most other styles.

 

[Steve]

Generally speaking, a purple belt in bjj is considered equivalent to the average black belt in most other styles.

Based in Jr's definition, that would be a blue belt in many schools.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Based in Jr's definition, that would be a blue belt in many schools.

Agreed. From what I'm familiar with, I'd say somewhere in BJJ Blue is equivalent to the earlier structure of Black in many styles (a couple of years, solid fundamentals). For styles with longer paths (like mainline NGA and similar paths), I'd say somewhere closer to late BJJ Purple, or maybe even BJJ Brown.

 

[JR 137]

Based in Jr's definition, that would be a blue belt in many schools.

I guess where it gets tricky would be what’s the definition of proficient. And holding your own against who.

If you’re fighting or sparring against someone and you’re not using what you’ve been taught, it’s easy enough to say you’re not proficient. If the student is actually using it and you can clearly see the person has training, is that proficient? What level of effectiveness is the line between on their way and proficient? And then effective against who; an untrained person? A novice? Expert? Those will all be looked at differently by each evaluator. One person’s “good enough” is another person’s “not quite there yet” and another’s unquestionably yes or no.

I look at being proficient as using what you’re taught and being able to spar/roll with people a decent amount better than you without being completely embarrassed. Striking is a bit easier for me - take a 1st Dan candidate and have them spar with a 2nd, 3rd or even 4th dan. Are they going into the fetal position and turning their back out of fear or are they standing their ground? Are they throwing everything out the window and going on pure untrained instinct, or are they throwing what they were taught? Are they making the higher rank work or are they a moving punching bag? Is there any strategy?

My last test was for 1st kyu. At the end I had to spar with a 6th dan, a 4th dan, two 3rd dans, and a 1st dan. I went down the line for 2 minutes each person. I went through the line twice. I did the things I mentioned above. No one gave me any free shots, and I didn’t give anyone one either. I’m not delusional and think they went all out on me and hit me every time they could, but certainly didn’t carry me and make me look better for the hell of it.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

I can tell you i wish people did technical ranks and then actual sport ranks more and keep the two separate. So you know who is quite good at fighting and who is quite knowledgeable in the technical side of things.

I dont think dividing your ranking into those two is common though.

 

[pgsmith]

This is the Japanese view of shodan (first degree black belt) as espoused by a number of senior level Japanese martial arts instructors that I have discussed this with in the past. Shodan indicates that a proponent has learned the basics of the art, and can now begin learning the underlying and more advanced principles. Prior to that, he is a beginner and is trying to just to learn the basics.
Some arts take longer than others to learn the basics. There are a few that have very simple basics and so it is very easy to attain shodan. This is why a black belt only has meaning within the school or organization that granted it. People outside the organization generally don't understand what the basics entail, and so have no real idea of any black belt's knowledge or proficiency.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I can tell you i wish people did technical ranks and then actual sport ranks more and keep the two separate. So you know who is quite good at fighting and who is quite knowledgeable in the technical side of things.

I dont think dividing your ranking into those two is common though.

I considered doing something along those lines (though not with a specific sport focus, but the same idea), and just never came up with a good way to handle it. It just seemed more effort than it was worth.