Debate: What is 'Rank' really worth?

[Bob Hubbard]

Explains why I had trouble in a class....brought in 3 other text books, and the class text with the correct info highlighted and called him on the carpet for being quite wrong. It....didn't go over well, lol!

I've seen it stated that past a certain point there are no new techniques, something that I disagree with. I think there is always new material out there, and a level of polish. I expect a 7th to move better than a 4th. To know the material better, in more depth. But how good can an 8th dan really be at 26?

 

[Last Fearner]

Rank is only worth the paper it is printed on.

I might not disagree with the above post, but I might interpret its meaning differently, and I would like to clarify my perspective, lest some translate this as meaning "rank is worthless."

What is "worth?" In my opinion, "rank" is not "worth" in and of itself. Legitimate rank is a representation of worth. Just like paper currency is not really worth anything itself (in most cases), but is designed to represent something of value (ergo: gold, silver, or objects for trade).

The key word is "worth!" Following is what I hope some will hail as a brilliant explanation and analogy of worth as compared to rank! :ultracool

There are three kinds of worth:

1. Internal Worth - The worth that you see in yourself.
2. External Worth - The worth that others see in you.
3. Intrinsic Worth - The worth that you possess whether anyone sees it or not.

Rank, as "Internal Worth," is like looking at yourself in the mirror. It is a reflection of who you are, and if you look deep enough, you can see right down to your soul. The reflection is not the actual worth, but it can be accurate because it is how you see yourself, and is a good measure for you to view and make adjustments. It can also be distorted (like a fun-house mirror) this is why it is important to have an instructor helping to keep your reflections straight and pure, and understand what you are seeing.

External Worth is more like a photograph of yourself. Like when models and actors send in a "Head-shot" so that people they have never met before can see what they look like. This can be a good gauge for them to compare to others for what they are looking for, just like rank can represent who you are, and be compared between other Martial Artists. However, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, while skill is in the hands and feet of the performer. Just like a photo can be re-touched, or changed to make you look completely different, so can rank be a false representation of skill.

Intrinsic Worth is what happens when potential becomes kinetic, and you are capable of accomplishing the task at hand. From this perspective, it does not matter what you think of yourself, or what others think of you. The only issue is how you perform. The cheapening of other people's ranks by fraud, does not diminish your rank as long as you strive to bring your intrinsic worth to be even with the rank of which you have been awarded.

All worth of rank is either a reflection of, or a distortion of your Intrinsic Worth. In my opinion, most serious, or enlightened Martial Artists focus on the Intrinsic Worth, since they view the skill and ability to perform as the real value. However, I would not dismiss "rank" as being of no value. If it represents the true skills, then it is a representation of your Intrinsic Worth, thus it can have comparative worth.

In my opinion, my rank is only worth something to me, if it was a genuine acknowledgment of my real skills which came from someone I respect. This worth will change if my perception of my skills as compared to my current rank changes.

My rank will have external worth based on what others believe about the validity of my rank (genuine or not), and the value of my skills. This worth will change any time people decide differently about how they perceive my rank and skills.

The Intrinsic Worth of my rank will only change as my skills improve, or diminish over time.

That's how I view the "worth" of rank.
(I should be saving this stuff for my book - :ultracool )

CM D.J. Eisenhart

 

[Em MacIntosh]

I would consider that wise.

 

[kidswarrior]

In my opinion, my rank is only worth something to me, if it was a genuine acknowledgment of my real skills which came from someone I respect. This worth will change if my perception of my skills as compared to my current rank changes.

My rank will have external worth based on what others believe about the validity of my rank (genuine or not), and the value of my skills. This worth will change any time people decide differently about how they perceive my rank and skills.

The Intrinsic Worth of my rank will only change as my skills improve, or diminish over time.

That's how I view the "worth" of rank.
(I should be saving this stuff for my book - :ultracool )

CM D.J. Eisenhart

Yeah, I can buy most of that. Think I'm seeing your categories real skills and intrinsic worth as the same, which can be conjoined if we take out the phrase 'coming from someone I respect.' At my age, I don't respect anyone enough to turn over to them my entire self-perception of my place/value in the the MA world--even my tiny corner of it. Those people are human, they have good days and bad, fights with the spouse, are prone to common human emotions like jealousy, greed, vindictiveness (even over merely perceived wrongs) etc., and so having the final say over my worth is more power than I want to give them.

So I think your current definition of intrinsic worth would be what I consider the value of rank: only I truly know if I'm doing the things to build my skills and knowledge, or if I'm allowing them to slowly diminish.

 

[mjd]

The body deminishes over time, but the mind can stay sharpe.

What about the 75 or 80 year old MA who has devoted his like to MA, his skills are overcome but age, does he have worth? I say yes, he can be held high in honor for his life commitment and knowledge, with the help of devoted younger assistants can pass down this knowledge.

Rank or what ever you call it was intended to create order, leadership, guidance from those who by experience and there accomplishments have proven their worth of being capable of providing these things to give the group worth and therfore substain itself.

this is the backbone of a family, the people in the highest rank are the key, they may or may not be worthy, I personally don't disagree with a structured ranking system, but I must believe these people are worthy or I will go elsewhere.

 

[Miles]

One's rank is only worth the work one put into getting it.

If you put in hard training, you are worth your rank. If you bought your rank it is worthless....

Miles

 

[Last Fearner]

One's rank is only worth the work one put into getting it.

If you put in hard training, you are worth your rank. If you bought your rank it is worthless....

Miles

While I understand what Miles is saying here, and I agree with him in principle, I think we should be careful not to accept the general usage of terms for a specific definition.

What I believe Miles is referring to here (as valid as his point is) would be better termed as "validity." We can consider what is the "validity" of a person's rank. Is it genuine, and how did they obtain it?

On the other hand, the term "worth," to my understanding, denotes more of a perception, as well as a practical use. As a perception, "worth" is how I feel about it, or how others feel about it. Do I value my own rank, and do others value it. One does not necessarily affect the other. Just because I value my rank and feel it has "worth," does not mean others will value it. Conversely, just because others dismiss my rank, and say it is worth nothing, does not mean that I will lose my perception of its value. It should be noted that a falsely obtained rank can still generate a "sense of worth" by those that are fooled.

As far as the "practical use" of the worth of a rank, it does not matter how the rank was obtained - - if someone worked hard for it, or if it was made up and forged. If that person is able to earn a living, teach classes for money, or receive some other gain based on that false document, then it still technically has "worth." In the Martial Art community, this would be considered fraudulent, and an unscrupulous thing to do, but unfortunately, even forgeries (like paintings in the art world) can be worth something and have a value of their own.

Most might say that a wooden nickel has no worth, but if someone is willing to give me a steak dinner for a wooden nickel, then I'm going to start carving those puppies out! That object would be worth whatever you can get for it. Is it genuine? Is it a forgery? Is it dishonest? Those are issues to be considered, but it still has "worth" if you can get something for it. If the other person knows it is a wooden nickel and doesn't care, then I guess it's alright.

Your rank is worth whatever you feel it is worth to you in your own perception of worth, regardless of how you obtained it. Others will feel the same or differently depending on what their perception of worth is. Some people will pay you more for your knowledge because of your rank, which gives the rank a worth of practical usage. However, none of this has any affect on the validity of the rank as to whether you really earned it or not. That's part of the "Ethics" of the Martial Art!

CM D.J. Eisenhart

 

[Adept]

I've seen it stated that past a certain point there are no new techniques, something that I disagree with. I think there is always new material out there, and a level of polish. I expect a 7th to move better than a 4th. To know the material better, in more depth.

In what way? How do we define 'move better' or 'level of polish'?

But how good can an 8th dan really be at 26?

I imagine he is probably very good. Probably better than he will be at 36 or 46, when his body is past its peak.

 

[Balrog]

What is 'Rank' really worth?

People get bent out of shape over belts and ranks and certificates. Why? In the end, rank is truly meaningless. It is but a means of keeping score, or setting a pecking order, within a single organization.

I have to agree with that.

Some organizations tie rank to responsibility/leadership and require that you have developed instructors and a student base. Some organizations will promote someone who trains by themself and teaches no one. Which one works? Both. There is no "correct" answer, there are only correct answers within the framework of the organization.

But the bottom line in any art is, and always will be, mastery of one's own self. Belt colors or bars-n-stars on a Black Belt are really nothing more than a visual indicator of one's progress toward that goal by mastering a curriculum.

My $0.02 worth.....