Why Rank?

[Shadow Hunter]

I give up. I just freaking give up. Some people/groups just have to trash the other guy and get the last word in with some snide comment.

Why should I even bother sticking around here? Jesus!

 

[paihequan]

Shadow Hunter,

Please stay and contribute towards bringing the discussion back on topic.

:asian:

 

[Shadow Hunter]

Ok, how about you do the same thing and ask your buddies to do the same.

I am getting pretty damn sick of this. Give it up already!

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Admin Note:

2 suspensions. 1 for beating a dead horse, 1 for getting the last word.

Whose next?

:soapbox:

 

[DAC..florida]

Originally posted by DAC..florida
My opinion,

In my time in the arts I have seen many frauds or paper champions as I like to call them, these people claim to be somthing they are not and then they try to sell these lies to the public. Sooner or later they all get caught and it puts distrust of the martial arts into the public, they dont know who they can trust and the entire martial arts world takes the hit while the paper champions laugh all the way to the bank. So its no wonder that real martial artists across the globe are trying to catch and expose the paper champions in a attempt to restore the arts image to the public. I agree with those who try to expose the truth, but there is a time and place and most lies always get exposed, thats called irony. I dont dwell on rank but beleive it is important to have promotion levels in the arts that way you can set goals and have a more even match up at tournaments ect.
:asian:

:asian: I will attempt to use my earlier quote from page two of this discussion to return this thread to its original topic, I beleive we had a good conversation going here for a while! :asian:


I have Black Belts in three styles and have been sucker punched and knocked out by someone with no training (not somthing I'm proud of) but I learned a valuable lesson, just because someone has martial arts training (rank) does not mean they are a better fighter just that they strive to acomplish they emotional, physical, and mental awards of the martial arts.
HAS MY TRAINING IN THE ARTS TOUGHT ME TO DEFEND MYSELF?yes


DEFINITIONS:
1. rank- level of trainig you have received.
2. black belt- serious student
3. certificate- somthing you hang on your wall or keep in the closet in a box.
4. credentials- your background in the arts, who you have trained with ect. mostly used for instructors to give thier students some idea of who the instructor is and where they came from.

:asian:

Just my opinion!

 

[GaryM]

Originally posted by John Bishop
[B

I can see it now, we take the 25 year old black belts, have them challenge the 70 year old 9th degrees who have been in the arts over 50 years. If they can't beat the 25 year olds, they don't deserve to wear the 9th degree rank. [/B]

I think that this would result in fewer 9th degrees, and FAR fewer 26 year old blackbeats!

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Originally posted by GaryM
I think that this would result in fewer 9th degrees, and FAR fewer 26 year old blackbeats!

:rofl:

I somehow think you are right.....heh

 

[Shadow Hunter]

Just thinking and trying to get this conversation on track.

Within certain orginizations, there are chances to train with respected, high ranking teachers that are limited to those that hold a certain level of rank. The teacher quite simply does not want to teach the basics yet again or teach stuff that is above most students.

So, in this case of large orginizations with centralized ranking procedures, there is a good reason for rank. If you want advanced training, you have to prove you are ready for it.

At the same time, because few orginizations have the same standards for rank, letting the public at large know what rank you have does not seem to make much sense IMHO. If you want to impress people with a lofty rank or pretty title, then yes. But I do not feel the need to impress others. Some orginizations do not let people teach unless they are of a certain rank. But if you are teaching, then that is a moot point to tell the students.

I still am of the opinion that telling others what rank you are is a sign of insecurity, but I do not feel that talking about it is anymore appropriate than going into burger joints and lecturing on the evils of eating meat. Some people do it, I don't and I respect their right to do what they want without a lot of preaching.

 

[A.R.K.]

Shadow,

I would like to add that it is important to remember that we are all at different places in 'life'. Different levels of training, different ages, different backgrounds and certainly different in viewpoints.

As I mentioned, an individual may start out with 'rank' in mind. But over the years realize how little it actually means. We have to allow for others to take their own walk down the martial arts path and come to their own conclusions.

As an example, as an Instructor I need to provide credentials to students when asked. But when I'm with peers we normally don't even wear a belt much less care about what degree each other is. We just train for trainings sake.

:asian:

 

[Shuri-te]

In all sorts of endeavors, people seek status. And rank, an indicator of status, in all its shapes and forms, has its privileges. It is earned in all different sorts of ways including hard work, luck, scheming, and forming alliances with the right people. The list goes on. And the ways in which we award rank to people are countless. Some are formal, others not. The military and law enforcement are just two examples of organizations that issue formal rank.

There are also many martial arts that award formal rank. I can only comment on those karate systems in the U.S. that I have some familiarity with.

In the arts that were influenced by the Japanese (Okinawan and Japanese Karate as well as Korean systems) we have the concept of black belt with different degrees with the very highest ranks reserved for elder masters that have devoted their lives to the art. I think the idea of rewarding high rank to long term students of the art has great merit. IMO, one of the best things we can have in karate is lots of old masters who have consistently practiced throughout their lives. If they have achieved great skill in their life, and are good, decent human beings with the character and demeanor befitting a master, then we should hold a place of special respect for them. That is their due. In special cases, their years of training and devotion to an art can even bring great wisdom, even more befitting of high rank.

The challenge we have is that in many systems, there are often no standards so that many get to high dans at a relatively young age. We can't ignore that today we do have have lots of people starting in the arts as children or teenagers, and for those that are devoted, by the time they are in their 30's they can achieve extraordinary skill. Many more traditional systems wouldn't promote these dedicated students above 5th dan, certainly not above 6th dan. But some systems, less constrained by the norms of tradition, might reward a student of considerable skill with very high rank regardless of their age.

To prevent the problem of young people prematurely attaining the high rank reserved for the elder masters, the Japanese karate organizations adopted a standard grading system. Many traditional karate systems abide by these rules. Following are the 1971 guidelines of the Federation of All-Japan Karate-Do Organizations (FAJKO) for awarding first through 8th dan.

Grade.....Minimum Age...Years After Last Rank
Shodan..........16..............1
Nidan.............18..............2
Sandan..........21..............3
Yondan..........25..............4
Godan............30..............5
Rokudan.........36..............6
Shichidan.......42..............7
Hachidan........50..............8

If one looks at the history of traditional karate in the U.S., one can see an explosion of high dans in the past several decades, and some might think that this is due to lower standards.

But a look at history reveals this can be viewed, in large part, as a normal progression. Over the last 50 years, scores of thousands of GIs were exposed to karate. Many studied arduously in Okinawan dojos under some of the very best masters and then took their newfound art home with them.

Sometimes they took the masters as well. In some cases, Japanese and Okinawan systems sent out "emissaries" to grow the art abroad. And the case of TKD, this was done on a grand scale and this mass migration of Korean TKD teachers to the US is the foundation for the enormous popularity of this art. But regarding karate, it was the numerous GIs who were primarily responsible for bringing the art to all corners of the US.

If you go back to the early 60s, there were just a handful of ex-GIs teaching. But as more returned, and as more Okinawans and Japanese karateka emigrated to the U.S., and more students joined these new dojos, and trained long enough to open their own dojos, the number of karate students with many years training mushroomed.

The important point is that in the early 60s, we had a handful of ex GIs in the US all with perhaps 5 years of training. So of course their rank was relatively low. Fast forward some 40 years, and now these karateka have 35-40 years experience, and many of their senior students 30+ years in the arts. I think we should all expect a corresponding explosion of high rank as a result.

Under this group of senior students is a very large group of students with 15-20 years experience. I would argue that as this group ages, we should anticipate even further growth of high rank.

 

[John Bishop]

Very Well Said

 

[A.R.K.]

Bravo :asian:

 

[Shuri-te]

In this era of rank inflation, some might be tempted to look at the old-school Okinawans and think that high ranks are rare in those systems. But many systems, including those that are clearly well-respected, have amassed quite a surprising number of high ranks.

There is probably no system as mainline as Seikichi Iha's Shidokan. His teacher, Katsuya Miyahira, now 85, was one of the top four students of Chosin Chibana, the founder of Kobayashi Shorin Ryu and a protégé of Itosu. Iha is now heir apparent to the system.

Iha moved to LA in 1967 and then to Lansing Michigan in 1976 where most of his students have studied. He also picked up a splinter organization when Robert Herten left Shuguro Nakazato's Shorinkan system a decade ago. (Nakazato was also one of the four senior students of Chibana.)

At www.ihadojo.com, you can find a directory of Iha's current students. Following are the rankings 3rd dan and above.

3rd dan - 40
4th dan - 20
5th dan - 14
6th dan - 12
7th dan - 5

The 6th and 7th dans began training in the late 60s and early 70s. Most all have their own schools and are helping to grow the art.

I doubt anyone who has trained with Iha would ever call his school a McDojo, or accuse him of being a dan factory. He is about as old-school as they come. This guy jumps rope on the knuckles of his toes. And when it comes to integrity and honesty, this great master has it all. He lives to teach his students. And they return the devotion in full.

And these guys are no wimps. His top student, Nakasone, is on video driving his forearm through the lower shaft of a baseball bat. That's just an example of Iha's senior students who are all serious, long-term practitioners of the art.

I bring up this example to show what one might expect regarding rank promotion under a successful, respected Okinawan master in the U.S. Here is just one karate teacher, and one can see how he has grown a fairly large crop of high-dans, and high-dans in the making.

 

[Shuri-te]

Regarding awarding high rank at young ages, here's something I posted on an earlier thread.

In Japan, there have been young high dans. One example is Shogo Kuniba who reached 7th dan at 31 (http://www.kunibakai.org/history_of_shogo_kuniba.htm). Eizo Shimabukuro, headmaster of Shobayashi Shorin Ryu, was promoted to 10th dan at 34 by Kanken Toyama. (http://www.okinawankarateclub.com/Shorin_Ryu.htm). Oyata was a 7th dan by the time he was 36.

In the system I began in, my sensei had been promoted by Kuniba to 5th dan at age 34 with only 16 years training.

There has been some mention of the dan factories that have existed in Okinawa for the Marines and Airmen stationed there. From my U.S. location, it is hard to differentiate a dan factory from a legitimate traditional Okinawan Karate dojo. But following is an example of a mainstream Okinawan system awarding high rank to a rather young U.S. airman.

On http://www.usashorinryu.org/About/fdrh.cfm, Frank Hargrove describes his ascent under Shuguro Nakazato. After a year he made shodan, and three years later, at the age of 22, he was promoted to 4th dan. Six years later, he was awarded 6th dan.

My guess as that Hargrove was in the dojo pretty much every waking minute he was not on duty, training many hours every day. But even so, his blistering movement through the ranks is an indicator that this issue of rapid promotion is not limited to U.S. dojos, but can been found in mainstream Okinawan schools as well.

 

[A.R.K.]

Good information. It would seem it is folly to cast judgement [negative or positive] on another individual without having an in-depth and first hand knowledge of their training. Standards vary dramactically as does personal commitments. To base an opinion soley on 'paper' [or lack thereof] is to turn a blind eye to the entire picture.

That might be an interesting topic i.e. the 'big' picture. What should be the guide rod to measure a practitioner? I would suggest;

Total time in training [in terms of months/years].

Amount of time in training [in terms of hours per day/week].

Who the instructor is/was [although this is only a superficial item].

Organizational affiliation [again only a superficial consideration].

Practical experience.

Contribution to the arts.

Interesting topic.

:asian:

 

[Hot Lunch]

Regarding awarding high rank at young ages, here's something I posted on an earlier thread.

In the system I began in, my sensei had been promoted by Kuniba to 5th dan at age 34 with only 16 years training.

There has been some mention of the dan factories that have existed in Okinawa for the Marines and Airmen stationed there. From my U.S. location, it is hard to differentiate a dan factory from a legitimate traditional Okinawan Karate dojo. But following is an example of a mainstream Okinawan system awarding high rank to a rather young U.S. airman.

On http://www.usashorinryu.org/About/fdrh.cfm, Frank Hargrove describes his ascent under Shuguro Nakazato. After a year he made shodan, and three years later, at the age of 22, he was promoted to 4th dan. Six years later, he was awarded 6th dan.

My guess as that Hargrove was in the dojo pretty much every waking minute he was not on duty, training many hours every day. But even so, his blistering movement through the ranks is an indicator that this issue of rapid promotion is not limited to U.S. dojos, but can been found in mainstream Okinawan schools as well.

I never met the man myself. However, I recently learned that he's the reason behind why my last dojo (it's from his lineage) is the way it is, in terms of how rigorous the training is, and how brutal the tests are. Apparently, his training methods were highly controversial and were against what Nakazato wanted (or so I'm told).

In my opinion, if schools under Hargrove's lineage actually branded themselves that way (like Kyokushin does), it would at least allow potential students to make a more informed decision on where they choose to train. Kyokushin has established itself as a style where those who don't want all that need not apply. Schools that have adopted Hargrove's training and testing methods should do the same.

 

[Tez3]

I never met the man myself. However, I recently learned that he's the reason behind why my last dojo (it's from his lineage) is the way it is, in terms of how rigorous the training is, and how brutal the tests are. Apparently, his training methods were highly controversial and were against what Nakazato wanted (or so I'm told).

In my opinion, if schools under Hargrove's lineage actually branded themselves that way (like Kyokushin does), it would at least allow potential students to make a more informed decision on where they choose to train. Kyokushin has established itself as a style where those who don't want all that need not apply. Schools that have adopted Hargrove's training and testing methods should do the same.

Did you realise that this thread is 20 years old and is a fat acrimonious mess?

 

[geezer]

Did you realise that this thread is 20 years old and is a fat acrimonious mess?

20 years? Precocious little thread. I'll be 68 in a couple of weeks and it took me at least half a century to become a fat, acrimonious mess.

 

[Tez3]

20 years? Precocious little thread. I'll be 68 in a couple of weeks and it took me at least half a century to become a fat, acrimonious mess.

You're still younger than me though.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I never see someone saying it's perfectly fine to have a teacher, lawyer, doctor, etc., who is skilled, but not credentialed.

I've seen plenty of teachers, lawyers, doctors who were credential and still horrible in terms of the skill of their trade. Just because those guys have credentials doesn't mean they are good or even knowledgeable about what they do. It just means that they passed a test.

Rank in my system is based on who has been there the longest. It's not a skill-based rank. It's a hierarchy system, just not one based on skill level. Today I look at belts as an indication of what test they may have passed and give it less meaning to the skill level. If I know the school bases their belt on applicable skill level, then I then to look at the belts for the school in the same light. But off the back my default is to assume that the belt just means that someone passed a test.

The only reason I think this way is because I know that many marital artists train for other reasons than learning how to fight or for other reasons than learning how to use the techniques. It is what it is. I don't feel as negative about it as I used to in the past as I have seen more martial arts schools begin to focus on the application of techniuqes.