A Reason Why Rank Might Be Important

[Gerry Seymour]

This is the Japanese view of shodan (first degree black belt) as espoused by a number of senior level Japanese martial arts instructors that I have discussed this with in the past. Shodan indicates that a proponent has learned the basics of the art, and can now begin learning the underlying and more advanced principles. Prior to that, he is a beginner and is trying to just to learn the basics.
Some arts take longer than others to learn the basics. There are a few that have very simple basics and so it is very easy to attain shodan. This is why a black belt only has meaning within the school or organization that granted it. People outside the organization generally don't understand what the basics entail, and so have no real idea of any black belt's knowledge or proficiency.

While I agree, even that view isn't universal. Within the NGAA, Shodan is assumed to be much further along than that (it's the first "instructor" rank). Of course, in BJJ, they've clearly decided someone who has just gotten the basics isn't going to be a BB.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Boy, this is a popular topic! And so many different opinions. Quite a mess (not meant derogatorily) to wade thru.
This just reflects the current state of affairs with so many schools with varying standards. The head instructor sets the standards within his dojo (or association head if applicable). One dojo's typical green belt may be equal to another's brown belt, or may be equal to another's yellow. I strive for the former.

It also reflects that belts have different meanings and importance to different people, just like MA in general. For some its a sport, or exercise, self-defense or a lifestyle. Each of us sees belts from our own point of view. For me, belt rank is: 1. a recognition from your sensei of your progress and dedication, a sign of respect to the student and so something to be valued. This encourages us to further efforts. 2. within a dojo, a student knows who to ask for help. 3. And most importantly for a kids class, it helps them line up in less than ten minutes.

 

[isshinryuronin]

On the first point. there was an Okinawan phrase
... which escapes me right this moment. But in English it comes across as "Dan Collector", in reference to somebody who has jumped styles a few times, right after obtaining shodan. It was seen more often as something westerners seemed to do.

The fact that there was a phrase for it, surprised me at the moment. But upon reflection I totally get it.

As for the last point, my methods have always been under critical self review. Is there a beter way to do something?
If so, how can I implement it?

In the last five or so years, I did a lot of soul searching, while also looking back in time, at karate about the time Itosu brought it out into the public.

When karate was by todays standards more karate jitsu then karatedo. More primitive in a sense. Not a quest to make yourself a better person, but a regimen for phisical health, and unarmed self defense against a relatively low skilled assailant.

The kata wasnt pretty or flashy like the jka tournament stuff of today. It had a rough around the edges... but could cripple and maim someone flavor.

The bunkai was deep. It was more about the practical. Karate for better or worse changed greatly when it went to Japan. In oh so many ways.

The more got into the work of Patrick McCarthy and other researcher the more I felt a need to revert some practices, and methods.

As time went on, I realized I didnt have to do it the way I always did. So I took everything apart. Looking back, what changed? Why did it change? Are these changes neccessary?

I rebuilt and tried to remain faithful to what was originally Te, and was was additions were added by the Koreans and the Japanese, that were useful.

And then adopt a western scholastic mode.
Prior to Itosu Karate was an bujitsu artesian enterprise.
Post Japan exportation... Dojos taught karate more like an assembly line factory.

We have a DO.. a blueprint, a way... a method. We teach this way, no deviation.

To promote health, make you a better citizen, and a good recruit.

A lot of this is cultural. Japan even to this day is very very big on "Do".

Post war... karate in japan saw a sea change in "budo" emphasis. Less jitsu... more do. Primarily, because of the Allied Forces GHQ edicts that led to the purges at the DNBK... and the supression of Japanese martial arts schools.

This is the flavor of most GI Serviceman karate that came back to the US.

My question is what would karate in Hawaii have been like if Choki Motobu had been allowed into the country before WW2? Instead of being denied entry to to having questionable character. His streetfighter background was known well enough to get him barred.

What would that dojo have for us today?
Certainly not the kick punch kick kata and point fighting that is of questionable value (imho)

On the first point. there was an Okinawan phrase
... which escapes me right this moment. But in English it comes across as "Dan Collector", in reference to somebody who has jumped styles a few times, right after obtaining shodan. It was seen more often as something westerners seemed to do.

The fact that there was a phrase for it, surprised me at the moment. But upon reflection I totally get it.

As for the last point, my methods have always been under critical self review. Is there a beter way to do something?
If so, how can I implement it?

In the last five or so years, I did a lot of soul searching, while also looking back in time, at karate about the time Itosu brought it out into the public.

When karate was by todays standards more karate jitsu then karatedo. More primitive in a sense. Not a quest to make yourself a better person, but a regimen for phisical health, and unarmed self defense against a relatively low skilled assailant.

The kata wasnt pretty or flashy like the jka tournament stuff of today. It had a rough around the edges... but could cripple and maim someone flavor.

The bunkai was deep. It was more about the practical. Karate for better or worse changed greatly when it went to Japan. In oh so many ways.

The more got into the work of Patrick McCarthy and other researcher the more I felt a need to revert some practices, and methods.

As time went on, I realized I didnt have to do it the way I always did. So I took everything apart. Looking back, what changed? Why did it change? Are these changes neccessary?

I rebuilt and tried to remain faithful to what was originally Te, and was was additions were added by the Koreans and the Japanese, that were useful.

And then adopt a western scholastic mode.
Prior to Itosu Karate was an bujitsu artesian enterprise.
Post Japan exportation... Dojos taught karate more like an assembly line factory.

We have a DO.. a blueprint, a way... a method. We teach this way, no deviation.

To promote health, make you a better citizen, and a good recruit.

A lot of this is cultural. Japan even to this day is very very big on "Do".

Post war... karate in japan saw a sea change in "budo" emphasis. Less jitsu... more do. Primarily, because of the Allied Forces GHQ edicts that led to the purges at the DNBK... and the supression of Japanese martial arts schools.

This is the flavor of most GI Serviceman karate that came back to the US.

My question is what would karate in Hawaii have been like if Choki Motobu had been allowed into the country before WW2? Instead of being denied entry to to having questionable character. His streetfighter background was known well enough to get him barred.

What would that dojo have for us today?
Certainly not the kick punch kick kata and point fighting that is of questionable value (imho)

Trying to quote and expand on TSDTexan.

Great analysis of pre-1920's/1930's Okinawan karate (toudi) evolution. Talking about belts, they didn't even have Gi's then. Luckily, karate resisted being all combined into a single entity like Judo as part of the Japanization, and we're still Ronin at heart, although we are civilized enough to wear Gi's and colored belts.

I'm working on getting back to "the way karate used to be" utilizing seizing, grappling, leg attacks and other moves that were original (pre-Itosu) bunkai. Also bringing back some of the old training methods including body-hardening (kote-kitai) and conditioning.

Would love to see Motobu in action outside a Shuri cathouse.

 

[KenpoMaster805]

It dont matter what belt ythey should take it seriously

 

[Hanshi]

Rank is important but often indicates nothing about knowledge and abilities. If one trains in a specific style, there are things one learns and this is notated by a belt. I'm sometimes asked about my rank and can see my answer doesn't mean much. But when I get to the part where I mentioned when I started or the number of years I've put in, it gets a reaction. I've seen too many 11 year old godans to count rank as definitive.

 

[TSDTexan]

Trying to quote and expand on TSDTexan.

Great analysis of pre-1920's/1930's Okinawan karate (toudi) evolution. Talking about belts, they didn't even have Gi's then. Luckily, karate resisted being all combined into a single entity like Judo as part of the Japanization, and we're still Ronin at heart, although we are civilized enough to wear Gi's and colored belts.

I'm working on getting back to "the way karate used to be" utilizing seizing, grappling, leg attacks and other moves that were original (pre-Itosu) bunkai. Also bringing back some of the old training methods including body-hardening (kote-kitai) and conditioning.

Would love to see Motobu in action outside a Shuri cathouse.

Circa 1930 ish Karate class at the Shuri Elementary School. Chojun Miyagi is teaching.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Circa 1930 ish Karate class at the Shuri Elementary School. Chojun Miyagi is teaching.
View attachment 22197

The lack of uniformity of clothes reminds me of something I read in an Aikido book, perhaps Tohei's. Early Aikido classes didn't have a bunch of black hakama - students often "borrowed" their grandfather's good silk hakama, so the dojo was full of color.

 

[Buka]

The lack of uniformity of clothes reminds me of something I read in an Aikido book, perhaps Tohei's. Early Aikido classes didn't have a bunch of black hakama - students often "borrowed" their grandfather's good silk hakama, so the dojo was full of color.

I love reading stories like this. Love picturing it in my mind, too.

 

[JR 137]

Circa 1930 ish Karate class at the Shuri Elementary School. Chojun Miyagi is teaching.
View attachment 22197

Where’s Miyagi in that pic? It’s got a “Where’s Waldo?” vibe going for me.

 

[TSDTexan]

Where’s Miyagi in that pic? It’s got a “Where’s Waldo?” vibe going for me.

Good question. I have repeatedly asked it myself. Yet I am told that he is definitely in it.
???????
what gives.... you tell me brah.

 

[JR 137]

Good question. I have repeatedly asked it myself. Yet I am told that he is definitely in it.
???????
what gives.... you tell me brah.

I think I found him!!! I think I found Waldo!!!

See the guy all the way on the left in white? There’s a gap between him and the next guy. Look at the guy in white’s fist that’s up. Right at that level and right against the fist is a guy in the background that blends into the rocks. Zoom in on it. It’s either Miyagi or a ghost! Can’t really tell

Somehow I see it now and can’t not see him. Like a picture that everyone tells you looks like something else, yet you can’t see until all of a sudden it’s clear as day and you wonder why you didn’t see it sooner.

 

[JR 137]

Speaking of pictures of Chojun Miyagi...

Everything I read said this one picture was the only known picture of Chojun Miyagi.

The other day I somehow unintentionally came across a Chojun Miyagi Facebook page. And I don’t have Facebook. There’s quite a few pics of him. And the page was created in 2009. And I guess today would’ve been his birthday. And he says Osu. I thought Okinawans hate that word?
Chojun Miyagi

 

[Headhunter]

Where’s Miyagi in that pic? It’s got a “Where’s Waldo?” vibe going for me.

Probably getting one of his students to wax his car or paint his house....sorry couldn't resist lol

 

[JR 137]

Probably getting one of his students to wax his car or paint his house....sorry couldn't resist lol

Yeah... he’s just outside the pic, teaching “sand da floor.”

 

[Brandon Miller]

One thing I love about Sambo is that we have no ranks. We all wear either a red belt or a blue belt depending on which color set Kurtka, shoes and shorts you’re wearing. In competition their are no skill level divisions only age divisions. You could show up to a competition as a beginner and draw a Sambo world champion as your first opponent. Competition results speak for itself more so to speak. Although the only rank in sambo comes from the Russian Federation, Master of Sport or International Master of Sport or what contributions you bring to the sport as a coach. You get these ranks in Russia purely off competition results. I love it.