Why Rank?

[Galvatron]

I don't really have much to add, most of what I'd say concerning this has already been said by other people.
I accept rank as an established part of modern martial arts...
I personally don't place very much value on it, but it serves its purpose...I've been a 2nd Dan since 11/94, because I just haven't bothered testing, I'm sure I will eventually, but I just don't see the need to have another stripe of tape on my belt to tell me I know something.
I sort of get a kick out of meeting other 2nd dan's who's entire martial arts careers span less time than I've been a 2nd dan.

 

[Rick Tsubota]

I think people claim too mcuh rank they look stupid to real martial arts man, but to beginer they look like big shot.
So maybe they want beginer to think they are big shot.

 

[paihequan]

Maybe, just maybe there are some people in the martial arts that don't care about rank at all

:asian:

 

[Brother John]

Many times, rank is awarded not for martial skill, but based on political, financial and personal reasons. One does not goto school for 4 years and automatically get a degree, diploma or award, yet in the martial arts world many organizations will bump you every so many years, provided your dues are up to date. Sadly, just as there are 'diploma mills' that will print anything for anyone for a buck, there are 'rank mills' that do the same.

Rank is important and useful in many ways, but that which is useful/important AND arbitrary/subjective is prone to MUCH abuse... and it has been abused. But that doesn't take away from it's basic usefulness... to the individual. To me it lets me know where I'm at in my art by using both coordinants: where I've been and where I'm going next. It's a gauge, but as the standards of measurement aren't (nor could they be) universal for this guage... it's no more than a point of reference. To me rank has more to do with ME... on MY path in MY art. What others think of it? It's a starting point for what they might be able to expect of me... and little more than that.

As my first instructor told me repeatedly: "Rank is little more than your instructors opinion of you."
Agreed.

Your Brother
John

 

[Shadow Hunter]

In some arts, you are not considered qualified to teach unless you hit a certain rank. And different ranks are allowed to teach different levels.

I get a giggle out of people that mention their rank, and then immediatly turn around and talk about how rank means nothing. On the one hand, they want people to know just how good they are, and they also want people to be impressed with their humility.

My solution- don't mention rank at all. Don't ask anyone else about their's and don't talk about it either having value or not.

By the same token, I don't mention any groups I belong to or the teachers I have trained with. In some cases, my associations and teachers do not want too much talk about them in open forums.

The people that complain the loudest are usually the worst offenders in the ego game.

 

[paihequan]

Interesting viewpoints.

Shadow Hunter: I have to agree. All too often it is those who are attached heavily to the concept of rank that will attack others over this verys same issue.

 

[John Bishop]

Paihequan:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but according to some previous posts here, aren't you the one who claimed rank and background that was shown to be false?
And now your trying to get people to support your new belief that rank is not important, and has no meaning?

 

[DAC..florida]

Originally posted by John Bishop
Paihequan:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but according to some previous posts here, aren't you the one who claimed rank and background that was shown to be false?
And now your trying to get people to support your new belief that rank is not important, and has no meaning?

John,

not for nothing but why are you trying to start another flame war!

:asian:

 

[Rick Tsubota]

Originally posted by paihequan
Maybe, just maybe there are some people in the martial arts that don't care about rank at all

:asian:

Some people maybe dont care about rank. Not many people.
Some people love rank and buy fake rank too.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Mod Note: The discussion of rank is ok. The rehashing of old debates surrounding certain members is not. For a clarifiation, please see the rules on 'Fraud Busting'. As long as it doesn't become another rehash, things are ok.

Thank you.

:asian:

 

[paihequan]

John and Ricky:

With all due respect, how did I know that you'd attempt to go down such a negative path. As stated, those who complain the loudest abour rank are those who try to use it to show their superiority over others. Pretty saddening is it not?

As Bob said, keep on subject please.


:asian:

 

[Shadow Hunter]

I feel like I have wandered into a minefield without directions.

Maybe it would be safest to suggest that anyone who feels that rank is meaningless should not complain about it or start threads asking why rank is needed.

Sitting around and complaining about something just sounds like sour grapes in a lot of cases. I know people who have rank and don't think it means anything. They just don't pay anymore attention to it than a guy living in Hawaii pays attention to his defrost button on his car. It is the guys that don't have a rank they feel they deserve that seem to make the most noise.

 

[A.R.K.]

I haven't seen anyone really complaining about this topic. And I don't see anything wrong with introducing it as a topic of conversation and asking for others input. Thats the whole purpose of this board and a fine way to express yourself and learn from others.

Many people may have at one time desired rank and put it on a high priority list. But at some point changed to regard it as not that important of an item. That shows growth.

Many people may feel the need to present their credentials for an intended purpose. As an example, many here are instructors that have web sites linked to their posts. In this world prospective students wish to see the background of instructors, which is a good thing. Feeling the need to list such credentials in that medium is a necessity from a business standpoint, but the individual instructor may also personally feel that such rank has a less important priority against the much higher priority of what he can teach a student.

However, on the other perspective, if someone feels rank holds an important position in their life no one should look down on that. We are all in different places in live. Some have traveled down the road long ago and some haven't gotten there yet.

Very interesting to see the different opinions here.

:asian:

 

[Rick Tsubota]

Originally posted by paihequan
John and Ricky:

With all due respect, how did I know that you'd attempt to go down such a negative path. As stated, those who complain the loudest abour rank are those who try to use it to show their superiority over others. Pretty saddening is it not?

As Bob said, keep on subject please.


:asian:

Again nobody said your name.

You make this kind of topic that you know might make trouble and then trouble comes you say "oh it always happens", and try to play like you are innocent.

Nobody try to use rank to show superior level except people that say they are very high rank. They want people think they are great or something because of belt or title.
Its stupid idea and usually done by people who are weak martial arts person. Thats what I think is sad. I feel sad for people who do that because they don't get real meaning from martial arts. Just stupid title and pretty belt.

 

[paihequan]

Rick,

If your comments are not directed towards me then could you please explain why it is I continue to receive ill-mannered and rather childish e-mails from you on this very subject to my private e-mail address???

Please adhere to the Moderators request and keep on subject.

:asian:

 

[Rick Tsubota]

Originally posted by paihequan
Rick,

If your comments are not directed towards me then could you please explain why it is I continue to receive ill-mannered and rather childish e-mails from you on this very subject to my private e-mail address???

Please adhere to the Moderators request and keep on subject.

:asian:

You are funny guy.
You always like to twist story and make people think you are innocent guy.

I get email from you first. I never send you email first.

This is your email to me on Thu, 10 Jul 2003

To clarify,_ firstly I find you rude, offensive and ill-mannered for one who
proclaims to be form an Okinawan Karatedo heritage. You are a small minded
individual whose time would be better spent on building yourself as a better
person rather than trying to drag others down to your petty, childish and
unfortunate level.

I spent nine years in total associated with Mr. Yabiku. I spent two weeks
training under him on Okinawa. I never paid for a grade from him!I have had no
association with Mr. Yabiku nor his group for quite a numner of years so your
beating a long dead horse! Stop living in the past and get over it. Dwelling on
this like it's the last scrap of "fact you have is extremely pathetic and sad.
You have my sympathy.

I was unfortunately associated with a group known as_ Juko-Kai prior to Mr.
Yabiku. I did not pay the stated $3000 you mention for a rank. Your "facts" are
incorrect. I made a mistake being associated with this group and am glad to have
left that behind in the past and to have moved on. I claim no rank at all unlike
yourself and your associates.

My direct reply e-mail is tsuruken@austarnet.com.au

I believe in person to person discussions not public boards. If you want to
discuss your issues more then you can reach me care of the above.

In the meantime, I, unlike you, will be moving forward, and enjoying my life and
training.

Best wishes,

Ron

My answer to you.

>
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 9:11 PM
Subject: Re:


> I can email you a copy of the email I got from Ryushikan and Macarthy.
> You want see it?
> I think it said 3,500....you are a fake and a liar.
> I hate both.

(I looked again it was only 1,500 dollar for fake Soke rank)

Your answer.

Ricky. (As you call yourself) ---- What makes you think I care about what
you think!


My question to you.

>
>
> >Ricky. (As you call yourself) -
>
> What does this mean?


Your answer.

> >Ricky,
> >
> >Why does it matter?
> >
> >Ron.
> >

My question.

> You think I am not Rick?
> Maybe you are angry because I think you are stupid gaijin that got rank
from
> fake karate man.
> Funny you make comment about rank means nothing but you get fake rank from
2
> teachers.

your answer.

Ricky,

Again, what makes you think I care for you or your opinion.Grow up!


My answer/

>
Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 4:46 PM
Subject: Re: Re:


> No you need to grow up.
> You are a fake and liar.
> Now you don't claim rank because everyone know you teacher is liar and
fake.

Your answer on 16 July email #1.

Ricky, Ricky, Ricky<

First of all your wrong as Mr. Yabiku is NOT my teacher! I have not had any
contact with Mr. Yabiku for quite a number of years.


I do have_ two teachers/advisors. Both are highly respected in the martial
arts. Once again you are acting on the talk of others who like yourself,
have never met me.

You judge someone on the talk of others! How childish is that! No sir, you
need to grow up --- if even for your own sake!

Ron


(I don't say Yabiku, but you know I mean him. I think its funny, and its not others talk it is your email you wrote and say you bought fake rank. And you steal Mr. Macarthys website and say bad things about him to other people. Do you want to see? Maybe it can make your memory more clear?)


You extra answer today on email #2

Ricky,

Furthermore, If you don't like me why e-mail me? Go on with your own life
and try to find some happiness!



Funny you email me first then tell me not to email you.
I don't understnad this idea.

 

[Shadow Hunter]

This was a rather nice thread until someone decided to take offense at the comments about buying rank and proceeded to anounce to the world just how well that particular shoe fit him.

Drop it. Just drop it. Now. No more parting shots, no snide comments and no hinting about e-mails other people have sent you.

We don't care!!!!!

 

[Shuri-te]

Shadow Hunter:

I did enjoy your post.

It is odd how motivated a "certain poster" is to trash Paihequan. Bringing up tired old issues long ago settled. One wonders if he considers himself the new self-appointed MT fraud-buster-in-chief. Now that Mr. Rousselet is no longer posting under the RyuShiKan ID, it is curious indeed how this void was so quickly filled.

The management and mods have set standards on what is acceptable to post. Over the past few months, a few malcontents have engaged in a major "fraud busting" effort. Many, the management, the mods and the certainly many readers, have commented how utterly useless it his all been, not helpful at all to MT, just detrimental. But some refuse to get the message. Maybe more large type-face might help.

When someone claims that fraud-busting is a good thing, I like to ask: "What is the fraud-buster accomplishing?" It is one thing if some newbie white belt comes on this forum, and writes all sorts of unsupportable statements. Fine, everyone agrees that it is appropriate to let them know that their statements on history, technique, philosophy, or training don't measure up.

And if the "fraud-busting" purpose is to alert MT readers that in a particular seminar or school the instruction was really bad, then that is something else that many posters here think appropriate to comment on.

But that has never been the issue with the recent MT fraud-busting. Skill has never been the issue. Years of training have never been questioned. And perhaps most importantly, teaching ability is never questioned. It all comes down to whether contributors have been awarded high rank from dubious sources. There is an implicit, but false assumption that this has something to do with knowledge, skill, and teaching ability. In fact, they are unrelated.

What is so comical about the whole issue, is that good posting on MT requires no martial arts skill or tenure whatsoever. One can be a complete arm-chair martial artist and make a great contribution here. The speed, power and ability that years of training bring really are all meaningless skills when it comes to posting on the Internet. If someone wants to debate the fine nuances of the use of the words "soke" or "kyoshu" or "atemi", or "you", then one might admit that years of training will have little value.

Let's examine the fraud-buster record of recent. Since mid-February, four have come under intense scrutiny and thousands upon thousands of words have flown across this board. All four individuals are fairly long-term students of the arts, two claiming some 30 years of training in the arts. Of the two others, one was a teacher and one a student to one of these 30-year practitioners.

And what is the issue???? That they have been given high rank from "dubious" sources. There is no mention of their training. No mention of their teaching. No mention of their contribution to the art. And yet they get dragged back and forth through the mud from the moment they post on this board.

And I can just visualize the smug, self-satisfied fraud-buster, shining his nails on his chest saying:

"Yup, just busted me another dang tootin' fraud. How dare these people with a measly 30 years experience come to MT to post."

How about this. How about exposing fraudulent teachers, even ones that have legitimately learned their art but can't teach worth a hoot.

I went to a seminar recently given by a high-ranking Okinawan master who relocated to the US in the 1970's. He comes to the East Coast a few times each year to teach his students here. In four hours, we covered approximately 4 or 5 basic techniques. No combinations. No variations, just a few basic wrist locks and a modified front kick.

His English wasn't great, so he talked through a translator. He droned on and on in Japanese, way past what the translator was capable of remembering. He demoed lots of things we didn't practice. This can be okay, but he did so at a rapid clip, guaranteeing many students would remember little. And he made no effort to even have his techniques seen by many of the attendees. Since the master is not all that tall, most could not even really see through the crowd. And oddly, a stage was behind the master, so he easily could have made himself far more visible. All in all, this seminar was a big ho-hum.

The sad thing is that for many of his students there, this might be all the time they would spend with him that year. And many traveled hours and spent the night in order to attend.

But hey, this guy is headmaster of his own system, and an acknowledged expert. So what if his seminar wasn't all that worthwhile. He was duly accredited, so he is off-limits to the fraud-busters.

Best to go after two or three posters on MT. And go after them again, and again, and again, and again.

 

[arnisador]

Please bring the discussion back on-topic and away from specific individuals.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

 

[paihequan]

Rick,

As stated, I'll not lower myself nor this board to your rather questionable standards and practices.Your actions show more about you than I or anyone else could. The more you post in such a manner, the more ypu reveal about your true character.

I apologize to all on Martial Talk for allowing this thread to go down the path it has.

:asian: