Accepting rank from other organizations

[bushidomartialarts]

I wouldn't accept rank in, say, Shotokan. But I've been offered and accepted rank in other Kenpo organizations. Right now, my rank is recognized by five different orgs. It's a way of keeping the peace, showing respect, making friends.

Now, some instructors will get really, really surly if you go and accept rank from another instructor. Personally, I can't get behind that sort of old-school territorialism.

 

[jks9199]

I wouldn't accept rank in, say, Shotokan. But I've been offered and accepted rank in other Kenpo organizations. Right now, my rank is recognized by five different orgs. It's a way of keeping the peace, showing respect, making friends.

Now, some instructors will get really, really surly if you go and accept rank from another instructor. Personally, I can't get behind that sort of old-school territorialism.

I think that's a different situation. You've got kindred systems or associations recognizing and acknowledging your rank, not someone from a different system entirely deciding you should be Q-level black belt, which is what I read the initial post as asking about.

 

[Balrog]

I would accept it, but only in an honorary capacity.

When I have students come into my school with prior training in another style, I offer them a choice. They can start over at White Belt or I will evaluate them and they can start at an equivalent rank in our style. They will not promote from that rank, however, until they learn our curriculum from White Belt on up. I do this because they have already put in a lot of "sweat equity", and I think that effort should be acknowledged in some way.

Since I became the chief instructor in 1994, the majority of folks have opted to start over at White Belt and move up through the ranks. They will tend to move a lot faster because of their prior training, and will continue to do so until they hit the level in our style that corresponds to where they were in their old style. At that point, they will slow down and progress at their normal rate.

 

[Karatedrifter7]

But what if? You had the same style of an organized chain of schools? I'm not an instructor myself. But what does Tracy Kenpo, or Kim's Tae Kwan do, Or Fred Villari Shaolin Kempo, or many others (that I havent listed) do, when someone travels to a different school of the same chain?

 

[MBuzzy]

It depends on who the person is, why he or she is offering the certificate, what if anything is expected in return and how it will make people feel.

If it would make the person feel better to give me a piece of paper or if he or she would feel hurt if I refused I'd take it in the spirit in which it was intended. It wouldn't mean diddly as a martial arts rank. I wouldn't use it for advertising. But I'd appreciate the thought that came with it. People get honorary degrees from real universities all the time. They don't use them to try and get tenure anywhere. They're like large-size attaboys.

Suppose it were a Grand Old Master. He publicly presents me (Lord alone knows why) this beautiful piece of paper at the end of a gathering or important training camp for his style. Refusing it would cause him discomfort and offense. So I'd smile, thank him, and bow politely.

I have been offered rank in such a situation. I got to know the "#2 man" in a system & he asked me to help teach his students kicking techniques (as his style didn't major on them). In talking with him one night, I mentioned that I wanted to get my 3rd Dan in TKD. He offered a 3rd Dan in his system to me right then. I was flattered, but declined. I then began to earnestly seek out a Taekwondo instructor to continue my TKD studies & rank. This instructor understood & we are still great friends.

I didn't know much about his art & I couldn't take a rank I didn't earn.

I believe that it completely depends on the situation and the people involved. In the situation that Tellner described, it would be much more unacceptable to REFUSE the rank. I would be very shocked if anyone did refuse a rank that was offered to them in a public gathering by a senior of another style. It is simply an insult - especially when dealing with Asian cultures. It is considered a GREAT insult in these cultures to NOT accept a gift like this.

Now in Iceman's situation, things are different, it is not difficult to refuse gracefully. It would not insult anyone, especially since it was reached through normal conversation.

If a senior Master of another style approached me and offered a high ranking, I would humbly decline. Now how much he pushed after that, would determine whether I caved or not. If he was insistent on it, I would begin to feel that it would be an insult to refuse it.

Another important thing to remember is that ACCEPTING the rank and WEARING the rank are two different things. By wearing I mean advertising, telling people that you have it, or actually putting on the uniform. You can accept the rank, but not flaunt it and that is a different situation still.

If I were to ever accept a rank such as this dependent on the situation, I would never under any circumstance attempt to walk in to one of their schools wearing that rank or publicly advertise that I had the rank.

 

[Sensei Payne]

Rank is something that is about time put into the arts and knowleadge of the arts...

for example, someone who is affiliated with Oyata's organiszation would be reconized as such in kaicho Allen Amor's Organization, since Kaicho was a senior student of Oyata.. Kaicho knows what it takes to achive that level in that system, and trusts Sensei Oyata's teachings...so the ackowledgement of that rank and promotion to that rank, is vailid

But if some random organization wanted to send me a promotion just to put me on there roster....I would respectfully decline

 

[Blindside]

But what if? You had the same style of an organized chain of schools? I'm not an instructor myself. But what does Tracy Kenpo, or Kim's Tae Kwan do, Or Fred Villari Shaolin Kempo, or many others (that I havent listed) do, when someone travels to a different school of the same chain?

Then you have a new instructor, that is a different situation than the one presented here.

Lamont

 

[Ceicei]

If it is an honorary belt for an achievement not related to directly being on the mat (not earned), then that belt belongs on the wall or some other place with an explanation of what it is for (clearly defined as honorary and the reason), and should *not* be worn around the waist. That's my take on this.

Would I accept one? I highly doubt I would be achieving that much recognition to the point that other organizations would want to award an honorary belt to me, so this is the least of my worries. I'm perfectly happy training on the mat, learning along the way, and earning my rank.

- Ceicei

 

[Balrog]

But what if? You had the same style of an organized chain of schools? I'm not an instructor myself. But what does Tracy Kenpo, or Kim's Tae Kwan do, Or Fred Villari Shaolin Kempo, or many others (that I havent listed) do, when someone travels to a different school of the same chain?

Within the ATA, there is no issue. If an ATA student moves and joins a new ATA school, the rank is accepted directly because it is a common curriculum.

 

[MarkBarlow]

I've been offered rank in other styles and had a few certificates mailed to me out of the blue. Each was declined or returned. I have accepted rank from instructors outside my chosen system who I trained with and felt that, if required, I could demonstrate their curriculum without making a fool of myself.

There are several organizations that seem to exist only to cross-rank the members in as wide a variety of styles as possible. Typically, you've got a bunch of moderately qualified shodan and nidan who start a system or organization with their buddies and are suddenly 7th and 8th dans, soke and founders. It's sad that they are so delusional. It's even worse when they cloak themselves in religion and explain away their shortcomings by saying that God wanted them to create White Powder Puff Knight of the Oblong Table Right Hand of Yaweh Hapfudo Ryu. I do my best to avoid any type of association with groups that inflate and cross rank.

 

[mrhnau]

Interesting discussion... would I accept the rank? Only if strictly considered honorary. I would not consider myself a skiller practitioner, nor would I consider myself qualified to teach, open a school, etc.. I can see why some people would offer such a rank, but I think its difficult to balance what qualifies one for such an honorary rank. I can see alot of people using that belt in their "resume". I've seen too many people in their tweenties that have umpteen different belts in a zillion different systems. Makes you wonder how they had time to eat!

I kind of see this type of thing in the same light as an honorary doctorate. It's something you rarely hand out to exceptionally special people. More than likely they have made huge contributions to some academic field or in some real world setting. Would I consider them as having another real doctorate? Probably not. Would they likely list it as having an additional doctorate? Most likely not.

So, for me, the question would be... what exactly qualifies someone for an honorary belt? How can you force them to display/mention that the belt was strictly honorary?
How can you prevent unscrupulous people from taking advantage of said belt, or prevent people from handing out belts too frivilously?

 

[14 Kempo]

It seems that everyone, throughout this thread, is looking at the individual's moral values as to whether they would accept rank from another organization or not. It has also been brought up the individual situations as to whether it could be disrespectful to the elder of a particular style that is extending the offer.

Let me play devil's advocate here ...

What about the moral values of the organization itself?
Why would an individual, from outside and organization, be looked down on by the students of the very organization that offered the rank?
Shouldn't those students respect the wishes of thier organizations leaders for the given individual to hold the rank?

Just a few questions. Maybe the students of a given organization should raise questions within, rather than casting blame outside, whether or not the rank is accepted and whether or not the rank is honorary.

Again, not necessarily an answer as to whether or not I would accept the rank, cause I've never been in the situation and therefore can't answer out of experience. Just a look from a different angle, so-to-speak.

 

[Rich Parsons]

I've been offered rank in other styles and had a few certificates mailed to me out of the blue. Each was declined or returned. I have accepted rank from instructors outside my chosen system who I trained with and felt that, if required, I could demonstrate their curriculum without making a fool of myself.

There are several organizations that seem to exist only to cross-rank the members in as wide a variety of styles as possible. Typically, you've got a bunch of moderately qualified shodan and nidan who start a system or organization with their buddies and are suddenly 7th and 8th dans, soke and founders. It's sad that they are so delusional. It's even worse when they cloak themselves in religion and explain away their shortcomings by saying that God wanted them to create White Powder Puff Knight of the Oblong Table Right Hand of Yaweh Hapfudo Ryu. I do my best to avoid any type of association with groups that inflate and cross rank.

Kind of like when a bunch of Kenpo people recognize someone as being an Escrima master (when within the Escrime community they were not). Or a Fencing instructor / master recognizing a Karate Forms or Full Contact Sparring Champion as a master (when in the Karatecommunity there were not recognized as such). Once so recognized they then move on and start using said titles and or ranks.

 

[MarkBarlow]

Kind of like when a bunch of Kenpo people recognize someone as being an Escrima master (when within the Escrime community they were not). Or a Fencing instructor / master recognizing a Karate Forms or Full Contact Sparring Champion as a master (when in the Karatecommunity there were not recognized as such). Once so recognized they then move on and start using said titles and or ranks.

Exactly! I can think of 2 or 3 groups that do nothing but pat the members on the back (when not emptying the wallets of the suckers who came late to the game) and hand out completely bogus rank.

Every now and then, you'll get someone with real credentials and ability who smells money and jumps on the bandwagon. One self-proclaimed O'Sensei contacted some of my students, asked them how long they'd trained under me and what their rank was. In each case, he said, "Oh, you've been held back too long, as of now you're (jump ahead 2 or 3 ranks). Just drop me a check in the mail and I'll get your certificate out to you. The kicker here is that he wasn't offering rank in whatever system he'd pulled out of thin air, he was offering my students rank in the style I taught them, a system he held no rank in or had any connection to. None of my students accepted so I must be doing something right.

I haven't had a promotion since 1994. If I never get another promotion, I'll be just fine. The source of the rank is more important to me than the level.