Sport Vs. KKW

[d1jinx]

Ok I have a few question about sport VS. non-sport, forget about sparring, one steps or any self defense. Lets talk about poomsae for a minute, the WTF have came up with rule sets over what they call sport poomsae, does this not seperate one from the other? Lets talk Koryo for a good example, nobody I know throws the first two kicks to the floor and to the cieling, KKW is actually the knee and the head, if the WTF and the KKW are suppose to be one why is it the WTF wants the flashy kicks and not the KKW standards? I am not trying to stir the pot but I am really trying to understand how anybody can truely say there is no seperation from sprot and Traditional TKD.

thats the new arguement. Do you do them the way KKW says, or the way WTF says. They are "supposed" to be the same.... but we see differences.

In the KKW Master course, they talked about that and how its coming from the split between KKW and WTF. They said KKW invents "things" then gives it to the WTF who may modify it for the "sport". such as sparring and now poomse. No clear answer was given.

But like everything else going on between the 2, why would you not expect the same in poomse?

 

[bluewaveschool]

The "provisional" black belt rank may be an ATA thing, as it's something that my school does.

 

[puunui]

No offence but I just wont waste my time. What I think or you think wont change anything and certainly wont affect my tkd training. We could have a 4 page back and forther but you wont see my opinion and I wont see yours. I have just read through all of your posts on the subject and its obvious we wont agree. I respect your opinion but certainly cant agree with it and in all honesty the less I say on this subject the better. Cheers.

It's not about whether you change my opinion or whether I change yours. Other people may be interested in the discussion and want to hear both of our positions, so they can draw their own conclusions. The discussion isn't only for you and me, but rather the entire membership of MT. Or at least that is how I look at it when I post here.

 

[puunui]

I am not trying to stir the pot but I am really trying to understand how anybody can truely say there is no seperation from sprot and Traditional TKD.

We are looking at things from two different perspectives. My perspective is what the pioneers stated is Taekwondo, that it is all unified and not separated into discrete parts. You are looking at what the non-pioneer juniors are doing to Taekwondo, which is to separate things, which causes confusion and in my opinion, causes the eventual destruction of Taekwondo.

 

[d1jinx]

if I may give this analogy to kind of explain the sport/KKW thing....

Its like NASCAR racing. Somewhere before the actual racing began there were drivers who knew about driving. They knew left turn, right turn, back-up, signal, parralel park, 3 point turn....etc. all the fundamentals of driving. Then one day they decided to have a driving contest to display thier driving skills. Using the fundamentals to be a good racer and win the competition. Over time the sport of racing evolved into NASCAR. A race that only involves left hand turns and going fast. No basic fundamentals are required although most have mastered the basics. Soon you have billy-bob who never drove a day in his life jumping in a car and only learning how to make a left hand turn and step on the gas. And he becomes efficient at it. Eventually this may catch on and others skip the fundamentals and focus ONLY on the racing aspect....

In the begining, it was to showcase skills and techniques.... somewhere along the way it evolved into what it is...

So does that mean one cannot learn the fundamentals AND perfect racing? or should they only focus on racing and ignore the regular stuff like making a right turn?

whatever they do and However they got there.... they are still classified as "drivers".



and for the record.... I HATE NASCAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:rofl:

 

[bluewaveschool]

Didn't several of the pioneers abandon Choi and the ITF during the 60s and 70s, and at least one kwan founder refused to join the other kwan heads to unify? Would we even have a 'unified' TKD (KKW TKD) today if the Korean Government had kept their nose out of things?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Didn't several of the pioneers abandon Choi and the ITF during the 60s and 70s, and at least one kwan founder refused to join the other kwan heads to unify? Would we even have a 'unified' TKD (KKW TKD) today if the Korean Government had kept their nose out of things?

Probably not.

Daniel

 

[puunui]

Hands down to hide intentions is not a factor in WTF sparring, however; no meaningful hand attacks are allowed and what are allowed can be directed only to the body anyway, so guarding the head from the fists at close range (the primary reason for a hands up guard) is not a factor.

You guard your head from kicks though. Many competitors go off the line to the head. the hands down position hides your intentions in a taekwondo sparring situation in a similar fashion that it hides intentions in a self defense situation, because it relaxes an opponent and makes them think you aren't going to attack or aren't putting pressure on them. It is a psychological strategy that many people fall for. You'd be amazed. Easier to show that discuss in words.

So far as I know, taekwondo is the only martial art who's sport aspect emphasizes a hands down guard in competition. This is mainly because WTF taekwondo is one of the few martial sports with little to no hand usage. Were the tournament rules to allow hand strikes to the head, I'd guarantee that the guard would change.

Taekwondo doesn't emphasize having your hands down. People do it because they understand the concept that you don't put your "shields up" to use a star trek analogy, if you are not in red alert. In boxing for example, boxers keep their hands up primarily because they are standing within striking range of their opponent at all times. The ones that went in and out, like Roy Jones or Muhammed Ali, tended to keep their hands lower.

Also, while the poomsae may start off in a hands down position (joon-bi), they don't stay down; they tend to stay mid to shoulder level during the execution of all of the kicking. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMhY2Ioeof8&NR=1

You are assuming that Taekwondo competitors keep their hands down even when they are in kicking distance of their opponent. the fact of the matter is since the increase in points for head kicks, and the failure of lajust to score points to the body, competitors have been keeping their hands up to guard their head because that is the only point that often gets scored.

Any meaningful attempts to relate the sport directly to self defense fall short because the sport is way too focused and doesn't account for many of the very obvious things that can happen in an actual fight (such as what to do when an opponent gets inside of your guard and starts punching your face or when he kicks your non kicking leg).

Again, you are assuming that your opponent gets inside your guard and is able to get within range to punch your face. I think that is a very big assumption. Again it is easier and more believable to show in person than to discuss online. When I first opened my own dojang over twenty years ago, it was during an era where people would still come to "challenge" a new instructor. I would stand there with my arms at my sides and people (including students) would play what ifs with me, including what if your opponent punches you in the face. I can tell you that for the majority, once I started kicking them in the leg, their focus changed from punching me in the face to getting me to stop kicking their legs.

In fact, the last time I got into a physical altercation, I was at a bar watching Monday Night Football. I was wearing business attire and I was sitting next to some local guy who was taller, bigger and younger than me wearing a lumberjack shirt, ripped jeans, and a baseball cap. Every time I would say something he would say some crap to put me down. After the first quarter, I told him that I was leaving now, but if he wanted to he could wait outside for me while I used the bathroom. When I left, he was waiting for me outside and tried his best to punch me in the face, I just did long off the line roundhouse to his leg or long padduh chagi to his leg. He kept coming and I just kept kicking his leg to the point where he was in tears. Finally I felt like enough was enough and so I faked to his leg, which drew both his hands down, and he lifted up his front leg, and I came over the top with a punch to his nose. But at the last minute, I pulled the punch and didn't follow through. He stood there with his broken bent nose, tears in his eyes, and yelled out "you broke my nose!". One drop of blood came out of one nostril, followed a few seconds later with a gush of blood all over his shirt. At this point, the security guard came, and asked me if he should call the police, to which I responded, "no need, I think our discussion is over."

I can tell you numerous other similar stories from my own personal experience and the personal experiences of my students, both in or out of the ring. You might be concerned about keeping your hands up because of face punches, but we aren't. you may believe that tournament fighting is different from self defense, but we don't. it's all the same to us. If anything, street fights are much easier because you are generally fighting someone who is not trained all that much (maybe some training) and they have a distinct disadvantage because they don't know what we are about. In tournaments, especially high level tournaments, your opponents have video of you, know you and your style, and are specifically training year around to beat you.

But to the eyes of many well informed people who know what they're looking at (as opposed to armchair fighters who never take a class but watch UFC fights and thus think themselves expert), it is a sport that has a marked difference from the rest of the art. Puunui does not see it that way, but he is probably the only person that I have conversed with who does not.

The fact that I am the only one who you have conversed with who does not believe like you do only speaks to the fact that we speak to different people. I think the point that is being missed here is that this isn't my personal opinion, but rather it is the personal opinion of the pioneers who founded and created Taekwondo, including but not limited to practitioners such as GM LEE Won Kuk.

Where did GM Lee get his ideas from? Here is a quote from JKA Chief Instructor NAKAYAMA Masatoshi Sensei: "During the years I was in college, Master Funakoshi developed and systematized Shotokan Karate into three basic area of training -- kihon, which is basic training in fundamentals; kata, which is formal exercises; and kumite, which is sparring. He taught that these three areas are one and that they cannot be separated."

Please note that Funakoshi Sensei does not mention or focus on self defense, but rather sparring, specifically competition sparring.

That is the kind of practitioner that you are arguing with, Funakoshi Sensei and the pioneers of Taekwondo, who felt all aspects of the art are one and there is no distinction or separation. I am just the messenger. If you have a problem with Funakoshi Sensei's beliefs, then your problem is with him, not me.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

It's not about whether you change my opinion or whether I change yours. Other people may be interested in the discussion and want to hear both of our positions, so they can draw their own conclusions. The discussion isn't only for you and me, but rather the entire membership of MT. Or at least that is how I look at it when I post here.

. The points I would bring up to highlight the many differences have already been brought up at some point in this thread by others and you clearly have your own thoughts on the matter. I just didnt want the thread to keep going around in circles.

 

[bluewaveschool]

How would those pioneers feel about the fact that you provoked a fight? I know my instructors, starting a fight (inviting a guy to meet you outside to settle things) was a one way ticket out of the dojang, as it is with me, and I'm willing to bet several other instructors on here.

 

[d1jinx]

How would those pioneers feel about the fact that you provoked a fight? I know my instructors, starting a fight (inviting a guy to meet you outside to settle things) was a one way ticket out of the dojang, as it is with me, and I'm willing to bet several other instructors on here.

I encourage it. Mercy is for the weak. Strike First Strike hard, Show no Mercy. Sweep the leg johny, sweep the leg....:rofl:

'jokin' of course.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Please note that Funakoshi Sensei does not mention or focus on self defense, but rather sparring, specifically competition sparring.

That is the kind of practitioner that you are arguing with, Funakoshi Sensei and the pioneers of Taekwondo, who felt all aspects of the art are one and there is no distinction or separation. I am just the messenger. If you have a problem with Funakoshi Sensei's beliefs, then your problem is with him, not me.

I will read through the rest of your post and respond later, as I am short on time.

In this last part, you seem to be assuming that I have a problem with the sport, sparring, or the detachment of sparring from SD. I do not. I simply see it as different from the rest of what I see in KKW taekwondo. Not better or worse; just different.

This last part also agrees with what I am saying; that WTF sparring really does not relate to self defense. The primary point of my post is that the hands down postion in WTF competition in no way relates to real world self defense and is done for reasons that are specific to the rule set.

As a general rule, sparring is used to foster a sense of competitiveness, and in this WTF sparring succeeds. While ITF sparring is different from WTF, I recall someone stating that the General had considered the sparing portion to be essentially competition and the hoshinsul and one steps to be self defense. If could remember who posted that and the thread, I'd quote it.

As far as who we each talk to, yes, I'd gather that we do talk to different people; in fact, I would hope that we do. Part of the reason that I participate in these discussions is precisely because other participants talk to people that I do not.

The majority of people that I converse with on the subject online are here at MT for what its worth.

Daniel

 

[dancingalone]

How would those pioneers feel about the fact that you provoked a fight? I know my instructors, starting a fight (inviting a guy to meet you outside to settle things) was a one way ticket out of the dojang, as it is with me, and I'm willing to bet several other instructors on here.

Dunno about the TKD pioneers, but a couple of the legends who predate the universal acceptance of karate as "karate-do" like Motobu, Choki and Kyan, Chotoku would probably have jumped in just for fun.

 

[puunui]

Didn't several of the pioneers abandon Choi and the ITF during the 60s and 70s, and at least one kwan founder refused to join the other kwan heads to unify? Would we even have a 'unified' TKD (KKW TKD) today if the Korean Government had kept their nose out of things?

Moo Duk Kwan founder GM HWANG Kee refused to join because of his hatred of General Choi. But his students outvoted him and chose to join. The fact of the matter is most everyone wanted unification, including General Choi, it was just a matter of working it through. Read the Modern History translation and you will get a better picture, with actual quotes and insights from the pioneers.

By the way, just to let you know since you are from the ATA lineage, ATA President GM LEE Haeng Ung was having very serious discussions with the Kukkiwon on how to assimilate the ATA such that ATA members could all receive Kukkiwon certification. The Kukkiwon and ATA were working very hard on making that a possibility. GM Lee contributed his business ideas to the Kukkiwon, such of which I believe became part of the Kukkiwon Instructor Course curriculum. But he passed away before anything could get finalized. After GM Lee passed away, the deal fell through because I think the new leadership felt getting Kukkiwon for everyone would weaken the organization and they would lose out financially. So the idea was killed. But it was close though.

I understand even General Choi wanted to "unify" with Kukki Taekwondo, which is one of the reasons why he gave it to North Korea's Mr. CHANG Ung. I believe that Mr. Chang, being an IOC member, could hopefully get a better deal for ITF members than if someone like his son (who I believe was convicted of conspiracy to assassinate the ROK President) could.

There was some movement in this direction also, with Dr. Un Yong KIM sending olive branches to North Korea at the request of the ROK government. However, when the new ROK President came into power, he was from a different political party then Dr. Kim, so they trumped up some charges and hurt the most influential diplomat that Korea ever had, for stupid selfish political reasons. Later, the ROK government admitted, privately, that what was done to Dr. Kim was a terrible mistake that hurt Korea. but it was too late, the damage had been done.

 

[puunui]

How would those pioneers feel about the fact that you provoked a fight? I know my instructors, starting a fight (inviting a guy to meet you outside to settle things) was a one way ticket out of the dojang, as it is with me, and I'm willing to bet several other instructors on here.

I didn't tell all of them every time I got into a fight, but when I did, most were interested in the result, and were not offended by the fact that I got into altercations. "If you don't test yourself in actual situations, then how do you know if your stuff works?" was the prevailing attitude. I was never kicked out of any martial arts school for getting into fights.

I remember when I was training with GM JI Han Jae for example, I got into this altercation where I think I broke some guy's hand with a joint lock, and GM Ji was ok with the fighting and was happy that I prevailed, but was upset when he found out I may have broken the guy's wrist. I got a long speech after that about how Hapkido is for pain only and we do not break people's joints. I thought about that, which is why I pulled back at the last minute and didn't drive through on the punch to the nose. Afterward, one of the waitresses said the funniest part of that whole incident was the fact that the other guy was bleeding, crying and going on about his broken nose, while I was standing there, calm, not breathing hard and not even sweating, like nothing even happened.

Here's another story, not really a fight, but a funny situation none the less. We were at nationals in cleavland back in 2001, we had a free day, so we went to an indians/yankee game. The game was sold out but scalpers were selling tickets. I negotiated a price with one, a really big scary looking man to tell you the truth. I gave him a couple hundred for the tickets, but the guy refused to give me my change. He was standing there yelling at me when I snatched the cash from his hand. At that point, I had both the tickets and my cash back, and he was standing there stunned, not knowing to do. I thought about walking away, and he probably wouldn't have done anything, but I instead gave him the exact amount and we went to watch the game. One of the Hawaii guys with me who I had coached the day before ended up winning the USOC volunteer coach of the year award last year. Anyone who knows him can probably ask him about that crazy day. He was pretty speechless himself at how I handled that situation, because before I did my snatch back, he was looking at me like we just lost $200 and what do we do now.

Most of my instructors got into fights themselves and felt that you couldn't really be a martial arts instructor unless you had some actual fights under your belt. Or at least they looked at students who did get into situations differently than those who shied away from fights at any cost, like there was something unmanly about that. Most or all were old school, hard people who grew up during hard times and were involved in hard situations. It's sort of like the Army, where the soldiers who have combat ribbons or CIB are looked at one way, and those who do not, are looked at differently.

Maybe it is just the mentality of where I grew up, here in Hawaii, where if you had a dispute with someone, it was perfectly acceptable to go do a one on one with them, with no one jumping in. I can only say that there is something about someone coming at you with everything that they have and me having to respond that is appealing to me, so much so that I chose a profession where that happens on a daily basis. We have a lot of Hawaii kids vying for spots on the national team and they have that same fighting spirit. I can see it in their eyes. Hawaii has a long and proud history of great fighters in the USTU, and I am glad that tradition is still being carried on by the next generation.

 

[puunui]

another quick story before I go to lunch. Back in the 1940's, GM HWANG Kee was telling all kinds of lies about his martial arts background, failing for example to acknowledge GM LEE Won Kuk as his teacher, or his teacher's teacher (GM Hwang learned from GM HYUN Jong Myung when both worked at the Seoul Station railroad). GM SON Duk Sung got so mad at that that he confronted GM Hwang about it, GM Hwang ran away, GM Son chased him down and beat GM Hwang up in I believe a high school playground. I asked GM LEE Won Kuk about that and he just smiled. I believe GM Lee felt that respect for the Chung Do Kwan membership oath was more important that avoiding fights at all costs.

 

[RobinTKD]

Surely we've all been in fights at one time or another? I was in one about 4 weeks ago where the police got involved after I split the guys head open. In my defence, it was all self defence, originally I was trying to pull some guy off my brother who had attacked him as we were leaving a bar, then his mate got involved. It was all caught on cctv and the two guys who attacked us were both arrested. Though I came away with a lot of his blood on my shirt, a hole under my tongue when he fish hooked me, and my brother had a cracked rib, the guy who attacked my brother has a broken hand, and his mate has a huge scar down his face where I managed to throw him into a flowerpot out of wrist lock.

I don't condone such violence, but if I had a chance to change things, all I'd do is bite the gits finger off when he fish hooked me and beat him harder.

 

[puunui]

One more story about a pioneer. My uncle, who lived next door to us, studied Kenpo under Professor William K.S. Chow in the 1950's. My uncle had introduced Professor Chow to his wife Patsy, and the Chows would frequently come over to my uncle's house. Professor Chow was very grateful to my uncle for a lot of different things and he would always invite my cousins and I to train with him for free. I was into different martial arts already so I always politely declined.

Then one day I saw Professor Chow with his wife at ala moana center and he looked upset. There was a large group of teenagers making a scene, being loud and disruptive, so when I went to Professor Chow, he looked at me at asked me "Are they bothering you?!?! Are they bothering you!?!?!" He got that look in his eye like he wanted to mow them all down like they were blades of grass. I told him that not really, they weren't bothering me but I could understand how they were bothering him. We eventually walked away but I don't think that gang realized how close they were to getting weed whacked.

And even though he didn't beat them all up, I kind of liked the fact that he was willing and ready to go for it. Soon after, I went to visit his class and ended up joining. I was super busy and already taking three other martial arts, so adding a fourth was burdensome, but I am glad I did because I learned a lot from him, including many things that he didn't really go over in class. Stuff like how to train when you are older, how important it is to take care of your joints, and that sort of thing, stuff that other instructors never spoke about or you couldn't get from a book or magazine.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

How would those pioneers feel about the fact that you provoked a fight? I know my instructors, starting a fight (inviting a guy to meet you outside to settle things) was a one way ticket out of the dojang, as it is with me, and I'm willing to bet several other instructors on here.

same would happen where I train. If there is any possible way of avoiding a fight then you avoid it. "Inviting a guy to meet you outside" is surely not doing your best to avoid fights. I would only ever fight if my families life is in danger, otherwise I see fighting as an extremely barbaric and immature way to settle a disagreement. Surely anybody who has evolved past the cave man days can see that.

 

[puunui]

Surely we've all been in fights at one time or another?

I don't think so. Personally, I think the overwhelming majority of martial arts instructors never got into a fight in their lives, and if they did, it was once, maybe. Is that the kind of instructor that you want to learn self defense from? How about a surgeon? Rather have one who has operated before, or do you want the one who avoids surgery at all costs?