Hurting taekwondo

[Daniel Sullivan]

My kids are able to defend themselves, SD is often one of their favorite parts of the night. We don't do the sport thing at all. Atleast in the 16 years I've been involved in my school, we've never had a competition team, a demo team, any of that. While I would support any student that wished to compete somewhere as andividual, as a school we don't do it. My students are quite happy this way. I don't see the parents believing their kids are learning real SD is a minority mindset.

Nor do I. Most parents who enroll their kids in martial arts want their kid to be better protected, and see the class as another way to accomplish that. That is not all that they want, but it generally tops the list in my experience.

For the record, my view of 'sport' with kids and SD is that the worse thing a kid can have is nothing. If the kid can kick like a mule thanks to sport, then so much the better. Generally, with adult predators, the more noise and fight that a kid puts up, the better, so certainly, a competitive ten year old will have an extra tool up his or her sleeve from sport alone.

Also for the record, it is not my view that those who compete in sport are inherently less able to defend themselves than those who don't.

In fact, there aren't any schools in the area that I am aware of that push the sport side. Some teach some really crappy TKD though.

Crappy schools seem to be everywhere, and not just TKD. Sure makes it easier for the good schools to stand out though.

Daniel

 

[bluewaveschool]

I get embarrassed for the kid when I pick off the occasional student from one of the other local schools. Almost universally they are behind the curve in the basics. We just promoted a kid to yellow belt. He had been a yellow belt at another school in town. Yet when he came to us, he could not show us any stances. He could not do a side kick or roundhouse. He could barely do a front kick without falling over. But he broke a board there. Schools like that hurt TKD.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Do they really believe that?

they have every right to believe that. They have enrolled little johnny in a "martial arts" class, of course they are going to believe he can defend himself. They looked up martial arts in the yellow pages, found a club near by and put their son in, if they werent looking toward self defence they would join him up at the local soccer club or scouts group. My daughter does tkd and can defend herself (against schoolyard bullies of around her age) and that is a large part of the reason I joined her up.

 

[puunui]

They have enrolled little johnny in a "martial arts" class, of course they are going to believe he can defend himself. They looked up martial arts in the yellow pages, found a club near by and put their son in, if they werent looking toward self defence they would join him up at the local soccer club or scouts group. My daughter does tkd and can defend herself (against schoolyard bullies of around her age) and that is a large part of the reason I joined her up.

Maybe that is your reason, but it isn't the reason why parents sign up their kids for martial arts lessons where I am from. Here, parents aren't looking so much for "self defense", but rather more discipline, exercise, and that sort of thing. Self defense falls under the "that's nice" category, but not essential. This is especially true in more affluent areas, where parents send their kids to private school, and the bully issue isn't all that pronounced.

Fighting or self defense isn't all that much of a concern I don't think for even the children themselves, at least for the majority of students who tend to be age ten or below. Perhaps it might be a concern for the older kids, but I have my doubts because they generally quit when they are in their teens, when I would think they would have the highest probability of being attacked at school.

The people who are most concerned about self defense tend to be adults. But I feel like those self defense motivated types aren't going to be interested in an average taekwondo dojang, with it's 80-90% kids. No, they tend to join other types of martial arts like filipino martial arts or MMA or even kenpo.

But if you have a different experience, then by all means keep concentrating on self defense.

 

[dancingalone]

The people who are most concerned about self defense tend to be adults. But I feel like those self defense motivated types aren't going to be interested in an average taekwondo dojang, with it's 80-90% kids. No, they tend to join other types of martial arts like filipino martial arts or MMA or even kenpo.

Agreed. And I see this as a huge problem and would like to see it redressed.

I get the feeling sometimes that I am in the minority however.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Maybe that is your reason, but it isn't the reason why parents sign up their kids for martial arts lessons where I am from. Here, parents aren't looking so much for "self defense", but rather more discipline, exercise, and that sort of thing. Self defense falls under the "that's nice" category, but not essential. This is especially true in more affluent areas, where parents send their kids to private school, and the bully issue isn't all that pronounced.

Fighting or self defense isn't all that much of a concern I don't think for even the children themselves, at least for the majority of students who tend to be age ten or below. Perhaps it might be a concern for the older kids, but I have my doubts because they generally quit when they are in their teens, when I would think they would have the highest probability of being attacked at school.

The people who are most concerned about self defense tend to be adults. But I feel like those self defense motivated types aren't going to be interested in an average taekwondo dojang, with it's 80-90% kids. No, they tend to join other types of martial arts like filipino martial arts or MMA or even kenpo.

But if you have a different experience, then by all means keep concentrating on self defense.

It must just be a regional thing. I have not been to the US and dont know why people over there enroll their kids in martial arts classes. Over here however, when it comes to kids the number one reason for martial arts lessons is to teach the kid how to defend themselves, the parents love all the other trimmings such as discipline and exercise but they realise they can get this from other sports. It does seem different for adults though, as most adults I speak to got into martial arts (not just tkd but any martial art) to lose weight, get fit, make friends , get flexibility etc. If a child student at our club got his *** handed to him by the school bully (after 2+ years of training) we would have the parents on the doorstep wanting a "please explain". One of our 10 year olds came to the rescue of his 12 year old brother being beaten by 2 bullies and easily defended himself amd his brother and controlled the situation, my daughter was there as was my instructor's daughter. His parents were stoked and came to class to thank the instructor because this is why "little johnny" is doing martial arts in the first place. If he had started the fight he would no longer be welcome at the club, but if there is no other choice but defend themself then they should be able to do it.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Maybe that is your reason, but it isn't the reason why parents sign up their kids for martial arts lessons where I am from. Here, parents aren't looking so much for "self defense", but rather more discipline, exercise, and that sort of thing. Self defense falls under the "that's nice" category, but not essential. This is especially true in more affluent areas, where parents send their kids to private school, and the bully issue isn't all that pronounced.

Out my way, its all those things; discipline, exercise, confidence, and all that, but self defense is expected. It is assumed that they will be able to defend themselves, and I have heard many parents say, 'now he/she is so much more confident and disciplined, and nobody's gonna mess with him/her; he's/she's a black belt!'

Yes, they do believe that their kids can defend themselves. Note, I'm not saying that they can't necesarilly. Depends largely on the kid and the school. There are plenty of adults who take the class and believe that they can defend themselves too but either due to reasons particular to themselves or reasons particular to the instruction that they received, they cannot.

Frequently, the ability to defend one's self is more mental than anything else. Much of 'self defense' is preparation, observation, and careful behavior. Much of defending yourself is accomplished before things ever get to the point of needing physical skills.

Once you get to that point, it is beneficial if you don't freeze up and have some skills that you can use without having to think. So to a certain extent, the fact that the 'sport' students are accustomed to taking hits and fighting to physically overcome an opponent and are generally very well practiced in a focused set of techniques that they can use without thinking does give them tools to defend themselves, be they children or adults.

Daniel

 

[leadleg]

Whether the parents or students come to me for s/d is of no consiquence,I teach a martial art my students have to be able to defend themselves. Just coming in and learning from me will be a reason for some to try them out. It is my responsabilty to see that they are no easy targets,for bullys or abduction. The women in my classes may actually be betting their lives that we are teaching them a viable martial art. I like the idea of complete s/d instruction, beginning with verbal skills walking away,avoidance etc, I have a paper I wrote to give to parents outlining the school districts zero tolerance policy. For my teens and adults the legal side of s/d is emphasised along with witness manipulation. we talk about moral issues and assesment of danger and acting appropriatly.
Lastly as a martial arts instructor no matter the style or curriculum it is your duty to see that your bb's can kick @ if called upon to do so.
I ask my little ones (12 and under) to take one punch,push or kick without retaliation,I believe violence in school is best addressed by adults. If the problem persists then its on. They know the difference between abduction or adult attacks and other kids.They will act accordingly,takedowns and attacking large muscle groups for kids.For the adultsthey can attack the eyes,throat,groin etc.

 

[StudentCarl]

Responding to the OP, I think the McDojo effect hurts TKD. I think any school that is more focused on promotion than quality creates students that lack depth of understanding and skill. A weak foundation is bad for students and makes TKD look bad.

 

[puunui]

Responding to the OP, I think the McDojo effect hurts TKD. I think any school that is more focused on promotion than quality creates students that lack depth of understanding and skill. A weak foundation is bad for students and makes TKD look bad.

To play devil's advocate, if the overwhelming majority quit at or before reaching 1st Dan, what is the difference?

 

[bluewaveschool]

The McDojo students, even after they quit, will remember the good times at Master Bob's and recommend him to any friends/family in the future, ensure another generation of sloppy forms, weak kicks and no SD skills. BUT... all of those people will think they have those things, right up to the point they get their @$$ beat. And then the person that delivered the beating brags about kicking the crap out of some 'TKD black belt' and that bragging devalues the impression people have of our art.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

The McDojo students, even after they quit, will remember the good times at Master Bob's and recommend him to any friends/family in the future, ensure another generation of sloppy forms, weak kicks and no SD skills. BUT... all of those people will think they have those things, right up to the point they get their @$$ beat. And then the person that delivered the beating brags about kicking the crap out of some 'TKD black belt' and that bragging devalues the impression people have of our art.

And thats exactly what happens. Irrespective of why you choose to do tkd, whether it be fitness, discipline, the social aspect or whatever drives you, the point is that when the student reaches black belt they should be able to defend themself. They dont necessarilly have to be a world beater but if push comes to shove with average joe on the street they should whoop his ***, they are a black belt.

 

[puunui]

The McDojo students, even after they quit, will remember the good times at Master Bob's and recommend him to any friends/family in the future, ensure another generation of sloppy forms, weak kicks and no SD skills. BUT... all of those people will think they have those things, right up to the point they get their @$$ beat. And then the person that delivered the beating brags about kicking the crap out of some 'TKD black belt' and that bragging devalues the impression people have of our art.

So what? Who cares?

 

[andyjeffries]

There are Taekwondo books out there that only deal with one step sparring movements. I want to say GM Hee Il CHO has one, and there are others too. I think I have three or maybe four.

If you could post a list sometime when you're near your library, I'd appreciate this, particularly with any recommendations on good ones.