Article: The TKD Billion Dollar Smokescreen

[Bob Hubbard]

Friend of mine said it this way (mind you I'm paraphrasing not quoting him)

"Average person has no idea what the difference is between karate, kung fu, tkd, etc. Your goal is to get them to call you, and come in for a face to face. Then, you can educate them, tell them the difference and why you stuff is the best. Until then, you fish with the term they know."

I train Modern Arnis. I've seen it marketed as Filipino Karate, Filipino Kung Fu, Filipino Ju Jitsu and a dozen other names. Bottom line is, once the person calls, or stops in, it's explained what it's not and what it is. Key was, to get them to call. You can't sell/educate if they don't call you.

No one's gonna look in the phone book for something they don't know about

Not all schools are that honest though.

 

[GenshinKiDojo]

Ok,



Wrong, Isshin ryu did not become Isshin ryu until 1956. In 1954 Shimabuku was still teaching under the name "Chan Migwha Te". He opened his school prior to that, so that's not 1954 either.

Guess TKD is not the only one to confuse dates...



Sort of, but it doesn' mean "strong man" it means "Son of old man" and was given to Shimabuku as a nuckname by the mayor of Chen when he was working there as a tax collector.

You also seem to have a problem with using the meaning of the Japanese equivalent for the Okinawan name of many of the kata. Naihanchi, Ku san Ku all suffer on this.

Seisan is 13, not 13 hands or 13 anything elses, just 13.

"Cheifa" is wrong, most likely a mistranslation of the word Tuifa, or tonfa taken off the video of him doing it. The kata is Hama Higa no Tuifa, and Hama Higa is a region, not a person.

Most of your descriptions tend to mix myth with what can be historically shown, a flaw you want to point out in TKD history a little too much. Some are rather common (ex. Ku San Ku is fighting in the dark), but still myth and not the actual history or purpose of the kata in any way that can be historically (or practically) shown.

I do find it rather odd that you leave out two of the bo kata, especially Tokumine no Kon as that would probably be the one that best represents Isshin ryu kobudo given the source of it. The other two came from Taira Shinken and are very different from what is practised amongst Taira Shinken's Kobudo Lineage.

Your ku san ku sai description I also find rather odd in that it omits the other half of its history, as it came from combining a sai kata from Kyan with Ku San Ku.

I could continue, but I think that makes my point. For a person so concerned with facts and insistent that you are presenting nothing but "facts" you really should research yours a little better.

well.. Andrew Green - I hate to be the one to tell you this, but everything you say above is incorrect. How many years do you have in Isshinryu karate?

I have 32 years sir. I also disagree with Isshinryu schools that do sports competitions - I feel it's counter productive.

That's how I feel. (my perspective)

your mis information about Ku san ku kata is 100% wrong. Shimabuku developed it 100% on his own from the empty hand Ku san ku kata.

Do a little more internet research and you'll find 40 seperate variations of any Isshinryu kata out there and meanings.

So it's easy to try and discredit anyone.

wow you really are hellbent on degrading me in anyway you can.. lol it's amusing really. I see again how your TKD twisting is working here.

Where did you get this bogus information?

The Tonfa kata is the same. read my website that's the facts.

I felt it might be best not to mention 500 variations on the Isshinryu kata facts - I hope that meets your approval. That might have confused the public.

If you wish to dispute any Isshinryu facts why don't you debate it with a higher Dan then I because it wouldn't be as fun would it? Having someone else tell you your incorrect goes against your reasons for trying to discredit me to begin with.

regarding your rediculas claims on a 2 year period about Isshinryu being formed?

Compare this:

TKD says 50 BC on hundreds of websites..

but it was 1955 TKD then changed in 1960 Tae Soo Do, then official in 1965 TKD again

but from 45 to 55 the kwans mostly called it TKD some did and some didn't..

so when was it Andrew?

let's not get silly here about a couple years.

we can say TKD was 100% not from 50 BC and Isshinryu was 1954 - 56 if you like?

 

[Kacey]

yes, I was being Sarcastic.

Hmnn.. so you obviously trained in a TKD type that had head shots in your school. good.

hey this is a TKD board - do you really think one out of 28 million people are going to agree with me or put there inflated ego down? No chance.

Can you ask yourself something?

What in the world do I have to gain from lying? Nothing at all.

I don't gain anything. I am disgusted with the lies, that's why I am here. I've seen it for over 30 years.

In NJ and all over the world. TKD is only part of the issue here. If someone from a Martial arts lies and says My BJJ is from 500 BC - I would be just as upset because it's lying to the public for what? money.. Lie = money making.. that is sick! Right?

I could answer your questions - but I won't, because I see no reason why I should justify myself to your, or anyone else who allows emotion to overcome reason; I find it hard to believe that the vitriol you spout comes from a desire to keep people from what you see as the lie of TKD. Certainly, there are McDojangs in TKD - just like there are in most, if not all, styles of MA. Does this mean that no one should practice TKD? Or any other art that has McDojangs? No - it means that people should shop around for a reputable school that fits their needs and interest, with caveat emptor as their guide.

I will, however, refer you to the second quote in my signature. In addition, I will refer you to my post in this thread, with the suggestion that you read the thread carefully and in its entirety, and consider the comments made therein. What you choose to do with this perspective is entirely up to you.

 

[Andrew Green]

Ku san ku kata is 100% wrong. Shimabuku developed it 100% on his own from the empty hand Ku san ku kata.

I take it you never learnt a less common kata associated with Isshin ryu, commonly called Kyan no sai. Where do you think the second half of Ku san ku comes from.

Do a little more internet research and you'll find 40 seperate variations of any Isshinryu kata out there and meanings.

Right, and most are wrong. However folks that have actually gone to Okinawa to do research from primary sources seem to agree on most things.

Of course stating there are 40 different versions does not boast well for your "facts". They are not unique to you, but fairly common misconceptions within the style.


wow you really are hellbent on degrading me in anyway you can.. lol it's amusing really. I see again how your TKD twisting is working here.

Where did you get this bogus information?

From actually doing research into the subject and looking at all sorts of sources and paying attention to where the information came from.

I felt it might be best not to mention 500 variations on the Isshinryu kata facts - I hope that meets your approval. That might have confused the public.

But then to claim it all as "facts" when much is simply myth or flat out wrong, that is misleading.

If you wish to dispute any Isshinryu facts why don't you debate it with a higher Dan then I because it wouldn't be as fun would it? Having someone else tell you your incorrect goes against your reasons for trying to discredit me to begin with.

Been there done that.

BTW - Your Megami page is pretty much completely incorrect, and the "creed of karate" you have listed there is not of Okinawan origin at all.

 

[CuongNhuka]

OK, and now I'm done. Bob, would you do all forms of rational thought a favor, and lock this thread. Permanetly. I really doubt this guy is going to get the message (the message being, try being nice, or go away).

Also, to Mr. Whitney. You keep claiming to be 100% right. That's fine. You are omnipotent, and know everything (and are thus, God incarnate). You also keep claiming that you were "brought here illegelly" and that people are slandering you. Fine. Again, you are omnipotent, so who am I (a lowely mortal) to question you. But, and here's a novel idea, why don't you DO something about it? If you really think you have such a great claim to slander, or what ever, why not SUE somebody, like the OP, Bob, or Exile?
Just a thought.

 

[GenshinKiDojo]

Friend of mine said it this way (mind you I'm paraphrasing not quoting him)

"Average person has no idea what the difference is between karate, kung fu, tkd, etc. Your goal is to get them to call you, and come in for a face to face. Then, you can educate them, tell them the difference and why you stuff is the best. Until then, you fish with the term they know."

I train Modern Arnis. I've seen it marketed as Filipino Karate, Filipino Kung Fu, Filipino Ju Jitsu and a dozen other names. Bottom line is, once the person calls, or stops in, it's explained what it's not and what it is. Key was, to get them to call. You can't sell/educate if they don't call you.

No one's gonna look in the phone book for something they don't know about

Not all schools are that honest though.

Bob,
Yes!! I understand that 100% and agree! My problem is I won't Market anything false. Example would be for me to say I teach Tai Chi and Yoga, then someone calls and I tell them it's all the same thing and fool them into coming for classes. I rather be honest say "no I'm sorry I don't teach Tai Chi or Yoga" and maybe refer someone. Kenpo for example. I don't teach it here, if someone is interested, I know of a couple great schools in NNJ that do teach and have referred people to them.

Everyone is dif.

My perspective on Martial arts / sports today is that everyone is so rushed to say they are a black belt or want to say they are the bigest and badest.

That really isn't what the "arts" are suppose to be about. I think people get so pumped up ego wise with sports that they either forgot or never had a chance to know what Martial arts really are.

 

[Andrew Green]

My perspective on Martial arts / sports today is that everyone is so rushed to say they are a black belt or want to say they are the bigest and badest.

That is definitely true, lots of people promoting themselves to ranks they shouldn't have and claiming titles that don't fit.

 

[GenshinKiDojo]

I take it you never learnt a less common kata associated with Isshin ryu, commonly called Kyan no sai. Where do you think the second half of Ku san ku comes from.



Right, and most are wrong. However folks that have actually gone to Okinawa to do research from primary sources seem to agree on most things.

Of course stating there are 40 different versions does not boast well for your "facts". They are not unique to you, but fairly common misconceptions within the style.


wow you really are hellbent on degrading me in anyway you can.. lol it's amusing really. I see again how your TKD twisting is working here.



From actually doing research into the subject and looking at all sorts of sources and paying attention to where the information came from.



But then to claim it all as "facts" when much is simply myth or flat out wrong, that is misleading.



Been there done that.

BTW - Your Megami page is pretty much completely incorrect, and the "creed of karate" you have listed there is not of Okinawan origin at all.

I refuse to continue talking with you as your obviously just out to try and discredit me.

you forgot to answer for everyone - HOW MANY YEARS do you have in Isshinryu karate?

I'm sorry but very bad topic to try and bash me on.. lol I don't know it all.. That's the beauty of the Martial arts - it's life long.

But I do know alot about Isshinryu - If you want more I told you to seek a higher ranking Dan.

My inormation on Genshin Ki Dojo website is 100% accurate - so please stop telling people it is not.

I'm sorry you think it's wrong but it isn't sir and I am not always right.

 

[GenshinKiDojo]

That is definitely true, lots of people promoting themselves to ranks they shouldn't have and claiming titles that don't fit.

yes.. very true

Master Christian Whitney
10th Dan Genshinryu

 

[Andrew Green]

I refuse to continue talking with you as your obviously just out to try and discredit me.

Yep, I am. You have presented yourself as a expert with facts on Tae Kwon Do. I am demonstrating that you're facts are not as factual as you would have us believe.

you forgot to answer for everyone - HOW MANY YEARS do you have in Isshinryu karate?

Hard to really say, when I "stopped" is a blurry line, I'd say 12 - 15. Of course that doesn't really effect the matter and trying to make it so is a logical fallacy (appeal to authority)

However I did do some pretty intensive research on the history of Okinawan Karate, History was my minor I got a thing for it.

But I do know alot about Isshinryu - If you want more I told you to seek a higher ranking Dan.

As I said, been there, done that. However the folks with the highest rank are not the best sources of information. THe folks that have actually gone to the trouble of researching primary sources in Okinawa are much more reliable.

My inormation on Genshin Ki Dojo website is 100% accurate - so please stop telling people it is not.

I'm sorry you think it's wrong but it isn't sir and I am not always right.

And you don't see the contradiction of those two statements?

But here is a question, even supposing that all of the information on your site was correct, you must acknowledge that there is all sorts of contradictory "facts" presented by other sources. Does this mean that isshin ryu practitioners are also liars in the same way as TKD people?

After all it is quite possible to research TKD history without going the 2000 years old route, in fact most TKD people know that it is not that old and know that it is based on Shotokan.

 

[GenshinKiDojo]

I could answer your questions - but I won't, because I see no reason why I should justify myself to your, or anyone else who allows emotion to overcome reason; I find it hard to believe that the vitriol you spout comes from a desire to keep people from what you see as the lie of TKD. Certainly, there are McDojangs in TKD - just like there are in most, if not all, styles of MA. Does this mean that no one should practice TKD? Or any other art that has McDojangs? No - it means that people should shop around for a reputable school that fits their needs and interest, with caveat emptor as their guide.

I will, however, refer you to the second quote in my signature. In addition, I will refer you to my post in this thread, with the suggestion that you read the thread carefully and in its entirety, and consider the comments made therein. What you choose to do with this perspective is entirely up to you.

I'm sorry you really are brainwashed.. No whoever love TKD continue. Why is it that you can't understand something soo simple. I said simply that if someone LIES on purpose to deceive the public for money like TKD claiming things and falsifying history on purpose - isn't that deceptive? yes and it's a lie - yes..

soo people should be told the truth about TKD or any sport or art first and decide for themselves.

I don't know is that too hard for you to follow? I think that would make a good person don't you?

Someone who owns a business to actually tell the truth about what they offer to the public? hmnn.. nahh maybe we should all lie?

what is it that you want to hear? I don't like false marketing. do you like it?

 

[GenshinKiDojo]

Yep, I am. You have presented yourself as a expert with facts on Tae Kwon Do. I am demonstrating that you're facts are not as factual as you would have us believe.



Hard to really say, when I "stopped" is a blurry line, I'd say 12 - 15. Of course that doesn't really effect the matter and trying to make it so is a logical fallacy (appeal to authority)

However I did do some pretty intensive research on the history of Okinawan Karate, History was my minor I got a thing for it.



As I said, been there, done that. However the folks with the highest rank are not the best sources of information. THe folks that have actually gone to the trouble of researching primary sources in Okinawa are much more reliable.



And you don't see the contradiction of those two statements?

But here is a question, even supposing that all of the information on your site was correct, you must acknowledge that there is all sorts of contradictory "facts" presented by other sources. Does this mean that isshin ryu practitioners are also liars in the same way as TKD people?

After all it is quite possible to research TKD history without going the 2000 years old route, in fact most TKD people know that it is not that old and know that it is based on Shotokan.

Wow.. again your attacks on my facts vs perspectives. It's annoying that I have to explain again to you. Isshinryu facts are on my website. Read them, learn them and understand how and what I wrote!

Did you even bother to see how I worded most of the Kata information?

Of course you did.. It's stated mostly as.. ?? Kata meaning this, that and sometimes translated as whatever? - that is how I translated and helped people who wish for information on the Isshinryu Kata. Not as you state because your trying to discredit me.

Your said 12 - 15? What does that mean Andrew? when you were 12 to 15 years old or does it mean you had 12 years in Isshinryu Karate?

What Dan rank did you hold. If you only had 3 years you would not have been a Dan rank. If you had 12 years you may have been up to 3rd dan.

I'm confused as someone with such an EGO would not have let that slip by and would look at any opportunity to toot the horn..

Were you 100% sport - why the bashing and personal website attacks?

so your telling me a 8th dan in Isshinryu Karate - or any higher then me is a bad source of information and you know more then they do about Isshinryu karate. Why would that be?

ok then Jhoon Rhee in TKD knows alot less about TKD then I do - does that make any sense?

righhhht.. ooook - I see

well continue your research young man and good luck to you.

** almost forgot your question - you wrote:

"But here is a question, even supposing that all of the information on your site was correct, you must acknowledge that there is all sorts of contradictory "facts" presented by other sources. Does this mean that isshin ryu practitioners are also liars in the same way as TKD people?


There will always be contradictory facts anywhere right? really..

Well of course - I'm sure there are liers in any sport or style that exist. It's a shame.

I would feel exactly the same about Isshinryu if they began lying right now and told everyone they are Yoga, pilates and kickboxing! Or if they stated the style is from 50 BC..

 

[Andrew Green]

12-15 years, and I no longer claim any rank at all, it's expired as far as I am concerned.

And yes, a history researcher is far more reliable then someone based purely on there rank, a good number of the original wave of Isshin ryu practictioners that brought the style back had only trained 18 months, and where 6th dan. They where there as military, a rather time consuming job, I doubt they spent a great deal of time researching karate history.

Historical knowledge is not in any way related to Rank. Some of them might know a lot from doing the research, some are working off misconceptions that have been around for a long time. A lot of them go back to a single article that has been largely debunked.

As far as saying "can be translated as" that is not true, I can't translate "Bonjour" as "Nice shoes" just because I want too. It has a meaning in the language it is from, and to call it a translation it should have the same meaning as it does in its original language.

 

[GenshinKiDojo]

you wrote:

And you don't see the contradiction of those two statements?


sorry I was simply trying to state a fact to you that I, like anyone on this planet.. are not always right.

I didn't say that you were right about anything here.

whew - you do enjoy bashing me don't you?

Are you always right Andrew?

if not then maybe we can agree on one thing.

 

[GenshinKiDojo]

12-15 years, and I no longer claim any rank at all, it's expired as far as I am concerned.

And yes, a history researcher is far more reliable then someone based purely on there rank, a good number of the original wave of Isshin ryu practictioners that brought the style back had only trained 18 months, and where 6th dan. They where there as military, a rather time consuming job, I doubt they spent a great deal of time researching karate history.

Historical knowledge is not in any way related to Rank. Some of them might know a lot from doing the research, some are working off misconceptions that have been around for a long time. A lot of them go back to a single article that has been largely debunked.

As far as saying "can be translated as" that is not true, I can't translate "Bonjour" as "Nice shoes" just because I want too. It has a meaning in the language it is from, and to call it a translation it should have the same meaning as it does in its original language.

Ok but the main question I had for you was the rank. did you make Dan rank?

ok - good point - from my knowledge of Isshinryu, I know that sounds factual.

In regards to TKD history, do you know the ranks the founding pioneers were given when told to come to the USA to propegate TKD?

The same thing - meaning same situation.

So if you have someone trained in TKD or any sport or art.. they made the rank of 1st degree blackbelt, but the founders gave them all 6th degree blackbelts to help spread the sport / art - is that proper?

Knowledge is like a college diploma right? so if we all were blackbelts but know nothing what good is it?

Good to hold our pants up and to inflate our ego.

 

[Andrew Green]

whew - you do enjoy bashing me don't you?

I am not, and do not.

I am merely pointing out that there are errors in information you have presented as factual.

I find it odd that you take offence to this as you have a website dedicated to the same sort of thing, although I think I am safe saying that your site makes many subjective claims and is not merely fact checking as I have done.

Are you always right Andrew?

No, but I do tend to check my facts fairly carefully before presenting them as such.

btw - why the title of "master", use of that title in the way you are using it tends to be more of a korean / tkd tradition. Okinawan tradition is fairly strict on not ever referring to oneself using any sort of honorific title.

 

[GenshinKiDojo]

Yep, I am. You have presented yourself as a expert with facts on Tae Kwon Do. I am demonstrating that you're facts are not as factual as you would have us believe.



Hard to really say, when I "stopped" is a blurry line, I'd say 12 - 15. Of course that doesn't really effect the matter and trying to make it so is a logical fallacy (appeal to authority)

However I did do some pretty intensive research on the history of Okinawan Karate, History was my minor I got a thing for it.



As I said, been there, done that. However the folks with the highest rank are not the best sources of information. THe folks that have actually gone to the trouble of researching primary sources in Okinawa are much more reliable.



And you don't see the contradiction of those two statements?

But here is a question, even supposing that all of the information on your site was correct, you must acknowledge that there is all sorts of contradictory "facts" presented by other sources. Does this mean that isshin ryu practitioners are also liars in the same way as TKD people?

After all it is quite possible to research TKD history without going the 2000 years old route, in fact most TKD people know that it is not that old and know that it is based on Shotokan.

I disagree that most people know it's not from 50 BC.. I have come across dozens of people who tell me how their neice or nephews are 2nd degree black belt at age 7 in TKD.. I only say "that's nice"

I don't burst anyones bubble because it's too late..

I think most people believe it.

ok if your 26 years old (I'm not attacking your age) you spend 15 yrs in Isshinryu karate - you should know more about the false marketing of TKD then.

 

[Andrew Green]

ok if your 26 years old (I'm not attacking your age) you spend 15 yrs in Isshinryu karate - you should know more about the false marketing of TKD then.

I know plenty about the misconceptions that exist in Tae Kwon Do's history, as I said, I like history. I also know a fair bit about the misconceptions in Karate's history. And not just martial arts, what most people believe as there countries history is full of myths and lies as well. Why you feel the need to single out TKD for a crime that your style is guilty of as well is beyond me.

 

[GenshinKiDojo]

I am not, and do not.

I am merely pointing out that there are errors in information you have presented as factual.

I find it odd that you take offence to this as you have a website dedicated to the same sort of thing, although I think I am safe saying that your site makes many subjective claims and is not merely fact checking as I have done.



No, but I do tend to check my facts fairly carefully before presenting them as such.

btw - why the title of "master", use of that title in the way you are using it tends to be more of a korean / tkd tradition. Okinawan tradition is fairly strict on not ever referring to oneself using any sort of honorific title.

oh Andrew you and your personal attacks.

*sigh*

I thought we were actually starting to be able to talk more openly without your negitivity.

No your incorrect!

First - one more time - I list FACTS on the Isshinryu Kata webpage - if information doesn't meet your approval - so sorry, but it's fact and they are translations Andrew.

Second - When did Master become a korean word?

Is Master the Korean word kind of like Tai Chi know is Korean?

Master designated 5th dan to 8th usually in a ryu. however I think TKD is 3rd - why don't you tell me?

Funny when I see a TKD instructor be called Sensei - That should never happen as it's strictly Japanese.

 

[Andrew Green]

Tradition, you will find very few karate instructors, especially Japanese / Okinawan ones that refer to themselves in that way. Japanese / Okinawan culture would consider it extremely poor form.

The word "Master" is, as you say, not Japanese or Korean. It is English, a western addition, one that is most common in Tae Kwon Do in my experience and I believe has a Korean equivalent, where as there is no Japanese equivalent in use.

Yet you seem to reject western additions and commercialization.

And just for interest, Tatsuo Shimabuku, teaching "sport fighting":



History and tradition seem important too you as way of preserving the martial arts, yet you seem selective as too which ones you consider important.

Sport fighting is a part of Isshin ryu's history, right from the beginning, yet you reject it. why?