Sport Vs. KKW

[Daniel Sullivan]

Discussions often begin simply, and then become more complex the deeper you go into it.

I'll grant you that.

I didn't realize that Kendo had kata. there are kendo schools here and I dont think any of them practice that. I do know that some Kendo instructors here also teach iaido as a separate art and given separate certification in iaido.

Seven tachi and three tachi/kodachi kata. They were assembled by the Japanese police department from the various schools of kenjutsu that were extant at the time and then codified. The intention was that all kenjutsu schools would practice these ten kata, adding to it their own unique curriculum. Modern kendo diverged from kenjutsu later.

Back then, many Taekwondo schools advertising as Karate were for the most part indistinguishable from Karate.

Fair enough.

But not within the context of the Kukkiwon, since the curriculum is still the same, irrespective of rule changes at the WTF level.

Yes, but (unless I am completely off the mark) athletes do not compete within the context of the Kukkiwon. Athletes compete within the context of the WTF and whatever NGB their schools operate under. Those rule changes have made the sport what it is today, and it is as the sport currently is that it is discussed on this board.

ok.

My opinion of the olympics is certainly a minority opinion and is, of course, just an opinion.

Daniel

 

[puunui]

Basic guard is radically altered in WTF competion due to the fact that hand techniques are no longer much of a factor and hand techniques to the head are not a factor at all. With no hand strikes to the head allowed, the guard has become a low, hands down position with the competitor leaning back. This both facilitates the execution of high kicks and the avoidance of one's opponent's kicks.

In both competition and self defense (which I think you are talking about), the highest level is executed from a hands down position. In the poomsae, many of the forms, most actually, begin from a hands down position. This is a basic self defense tactic wherein you do not wish to alert your opponent as to your intention. This is especially true if your opponent is outside of your immediately striking range.

In Taekwondo competition, a basic premise is that we stand outside of the opponent's kick range, meaning that the opponent has to take a step or slide forward in order to be in range of kicking. That extra distance gives us enough time to react to anything that the opponent does. Standing that extra distance also increases the probability that the initial kick to be executed will be one to the body, since body kicks are longer than head shots. All of these factors favors keeping one's hands down, when standing outside of an opponent's immediate kick range.

Also, there is no leaning back in competition. Modern competition favors an upright stance, not leaning back, because if you lean back, mobility is hampered. There are some exceptions of course, but the basic stance in either upright, or slightly forward, not leaning back.

This creates a fighting style where the head is left essentially unguarded and leg techniques are essentially the only choice. This can be done because leg techniques are inherently slower than hand techniques and originate several feet below the head.

I disagree that leg techniques are inherently slower than hand techniques, because you still need your legs to get into your opponent's range. I'll give you an example. I have students who train in both GJJ and Taekwondo, and they enter various MMA competitions. The basic strategy that we have developed for them is that there is only two ranges, kick range and grappling range. Most competitors in both taekwondo and MMA events, or any martial art really, kick short, meaning that they are most effective with their kicks at a range which is very similar to punching range.

We recognize that and so we launch our kicks from outside of punching range, which really messes up those MMA fighters. They don't know how to respond because all their training is geared towards kicking within almost punching range. So when we take that away from them, they get frustrated and angry, and then rush in, which takes us into grappling range. So we completely neutralize 98% of people out there with their main weapon, the over hand right hand punch. They don't even come close to landing a punch, whether we have our hands up or not.

I consider the removal of hand techniques and the accompanying change that result to be a pretty large technical difference, particularly in an art whose poomsae contain a greater number of hand techniques than they do leg and foot techniques.

Large technical difference between what? I thought the discussion was about technical differences between the Kukkiwon and WTF.

 

[puunui]

Yes, but (unless I am completely off the mark) athletes do not compete within the context of the Kukkiwon. Athletes compete within the context of the WTF and whatever NGB their schools operate under. Those rule changes have made the sport what it is today, and it is as the sport currently is that it is discussed on this board

Within the context of the Kukkiwon, there is no sparring competition, but the training methodology is the same whether Kukkiwon training or training for WTF events. Again, our kicking instructors at the Kukkiwon Instructor Course was a two time Olympic Coach as well as his professional competition team which included Olympic gold medalists. There is no curriculum distinction between the Kukkiwon and the WTF.

 

[puunui]

If you don't mind my asking, precisely what direction is the new leadership of the WTF taking the art?

Towards the removal of Taekwondo from the Olympic Games in the foreseeable future.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

In both competition and self defense (which I think you are talking about), the highest level is executed from a hands down position. In the poomsae, many of the forms, most actually, begin from a hands down position. This is a basic self defense tactic wherein you do not wish to alert your opponent as to your intention. This is especially true if your opponent is outside of your immediately striking range.

Yes, that is what I am talking about. And yes, I agree with you here.

In Taekwondo competition, a basic premise is that we stand outside of the opponent's kick range, meaning that the opponent has to take a step or slide forward in order to be in range of kicking. That extra distance gives us enough time to react to anything that the opponent does. Standing that extra distance also increases the probability that the initial kick to be executed will be one to the body, since body kicks are longer than head shots. All of these factors favors keeping one's hands down, when standing outside of an opponent's immediate kick range.

Absolutely.

Also, there is no leaning back in competition. Modern competition favors an upright stance, not leaning back, because if you lean back, mobility is hampered. There are some exceptions of course, but the basic stance in either upright, or slightly forward, not leaning back.

I will rewatch compeition vids. If that is the case, then I take back my leaning comment.

I disagree that leg techniques are inherently slower than hand techniques, because you still need your legs to get into your opponent's range. I'll give you an example. I have students who train in both GJJ and Taekwondo, and they enter various MMA competitions. The basic strategy that we have developed for them is that there is only two ranges, kick range and grappling range. Most competitors in both taekwondo and MMA events, or any martial art really, kick short, meaning that they are most effective with their kicks at a range which is very similar to punching range.

You are talking about effective use of strategy and footwork in order to maximize the effectiveness of leg techniques, primarilly kicks. I'm talking about the difference in speed between hand techniques and leg techniques.

Also, I should qualify that I am mainly referring to leg techniques being applied to targets above the waist.

We recognize that and so we launch our kicks from outside of punching range, which really messes up those MMA fighters. They don't know how to respond because all their training is geared towards kicking within almost punching range. So when we take that away from them, they get frustrated and angry, and then rush in, which takes us into grappling range. So we completely neutralize 98% of people out there with their main weapon, the over hand right hand punch. They don't even come close to landing a punch, whether we have our hands up or not.

Again, I agree. And I appreciate your answering. Your post does offer me a different perspective on the subject. My thanks.

Large technical difference between what? I thought the discussion was about technical differences between the Kukkiwon and WTF.

Technical difference between content of technique and the dynamic that results because of it.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Towards the removal of Taekwondo from the Olympic Games in the foreseeable future.

Not that I'm opposed to that, but I am certainly surprised!

Daniel

 

[ATC]

Well people train andifferent aspect of TKD when doing sport, must sport people do not do poomsae, one steps or self defense they only work on kicking the sport way.

Our sport team is separated from our normal classes but everyone on the sport team must take their regular classes or be dismissed from the compitition (sport) team. So we do both. I know you said many but was just letting you know that we do both.

 

[texkwondo]

No difference between the art and the sport? Tell me, where in the traditional art side of things has hurling yourself into your opponent into a clench position from 8 feet away with one leg raised in a defensive position ever been taught?

 

[ATC]

Towards the removal of Taekwondo from the Olympic Games in the foreseeable future.

what? Do you know what the WTF was created for? This statement make no sense at all. Read up on your history, there is not that much to read so it should not take long.

 

[puunui]

You are talking about effective use of strategy and footwork in order to maximize the effectiveness of leg techniques, primarilly kicks. I'm talking about the difference in speed between hand techniques and leg techniques.

I know that. Most people when they think of punch or kick speed, concentrate on the hand or leg only. But to me, hand and foot speed is entirely dependent on footwork, because if you are not within range, you can't hit your target.

Also, I should qualify that I am mainly referring to leg techniques being applied to targets above the waist.

Why the qualification? Why discuss punching the face but not kicking the legs?

Technical difference between content of technique and the dynamic that results because of it.

I still don't think there is any difference.

 

[puunui]

Not that I'm opposed to that, but I am certainly surprised!

USAT is also running on a parallel course in that the leadership has the organization headed towards eventual replacement as the WTF Member National Association for the United States.

At the recent WTF General Assembly, the WTF Bylaws (they are called something else now though) were revised such that the WTF no longer needs approval from the National Olympic Committee (NOC) in order to approve a particular WTF Member National Association's status. This was done primarily because in Australia, IOC member Phil Coles is supporting one group as the WTF MNA, and the Australian Olympic Committee has approved a different one. WTF President Choue needs to pay back Mr. Coles for his support during the last WTF elections, so they changed the rule such that WTF can approve their MNA in Australia without the Australian Olympic Committee's approval.

But this opens up the possibility of the same thing happening in other WTF MNA, like USAT for instance. There are groups out there lobbying both the WTF and the Korean Government to remove USAT as WTF MNA and replace it with their group. I don't know how successful this will be, because I think the present WTF leadership likes the fact that USAT has no influence internationally as far as WTF politics go. One less potential problem to worry about.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I know that. Most people when they think of punch or kick speed, concentrate on the hand or leg only. But to me, hand and foot speed is entirely dependent on footwork, because if you are not within range, you can't hit your target.

Absolutely!

Why the qualification? Why discuss punching the face but not kicking the legs?

In a different conversation, I would discuss both.

In this conversation, we're talking about kicks to the head in lieu of punches to the head with no strikes at all below the waist. Punches to the face are a staple of fighting and sport taekwondo eliminates this in order to showcase the kicking prowess of the athletes.

One of the things that you had mentioned, the hands down position to keep your intentions unknown, is something that I had pointed out in an SD vs. sport TKD thread some time ago. However, there are no intentions to hide in WTF sport due to the fact that hand techniques are mostly eliminated. The primary reason for keeping the hands up in most fighting sports is due to the fact that you already know head strikes will be a factor and you are not making any attempt to escape the fight as one would in an SD scenario.

The only reason that a hands down guard is used in WTF sparring is due to its shielding the body from kicks while head level kicks are more easily dodged. It is not a result of any attempt to correlate the sport to self defense.

I still don't think there is any difference.

I will have to disagree with you agreeably.

Please note that I do not consider sport vs SD/tradition/art/whatever you want to call non sport TKD to be a question of better or worse. I don't see sport TKD as bad or without merit. I do, however see them as different.

Obviously, you do not and while I don't agree with you, I do like the case you make to support your statement.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

USAT is also running on a parallel course in that the leadership has the organization headed towards eventual replacement as the WTF Member National Association for the United States.

At the recent WTF General Assembly, the WTF Bylaws (they are called something else now though) were revised such that the WTF no longer needs approval from the National Olympic Committee (NOC) in order to approve a particular WTF Member National Association's status. This was done primarily because in Australia, IOC member Phil Coles is supporting one group as the WTF MNA, and the Australian Olympic Committee has approved a different one. WTF President Choue needs to pay back Mr. Coles for his support during the last WTF elections, so they changed the rule such that WTF can approve their MNA in Australia without the Australian Olympic Committee's approval.

But this opens up the possibility of the same thing happening in other WTF MNA, like USAT for instance. There are groups out there lobbying both the WTF and the Korean Government to remove USAT as WTF MNA and replace it with their group. I don't know how successful this will be, because I think the present WTF leadership likes the fact that USAT has no influence internationally as far as WTF politics go. One less potential problem to worry about.

Very interesting. A question: what is an MNA?

Daniel

 

[terryl965]

Our sport team is separated from our normal classes but everyone on the sport team must take their regular classes or be dismissed from the compitition (sport) team. So we do both. I know you said many but was just letting you know that we do both.

ATC I know you guys do as do we and I imagine alot of sport school do as well. I still say there is a difference between sport and KKW.

 

[terryl965]

This is directed to you puunui, you do not know me except from my website and you believe me to be a lonely 4th so I should look up to my seniors. This tels me you really do not know much about me and my rank, as far as respecting my seniors I do but first they must truely be my senior not somebody that brought there rank by going to USAT and jumping four ranks, they are not my senior, they are a joke to me sorry but it is my GOD given right to say this. Next thing my G.M. is still mad at me for not grading for 17 years, if I had you would probaly be the in my ball park of rank. People that tell me I have no respect kill me, what you should be saying is I do not have the right to ask because that is what it boils down to I am your supperior so do not ask.

Next thing if the WTF and KKW are the same why two different aspect one for the sport and one for tradition? They broke it up not me, why get offended on what you say are the choosen ones? Bring the two fashen together and make them both be unified, because as of right now they do not see eye to eye on alot of issues. Now tell me is this because of big ego's or the money that comes from the sportside?

If there is no different in kicking techs., tell me this why do you need to come up on a angle to score with certain EBP systems? Have you seen every EBP system and used them, tell me again how it is not about the sport, I cannot believe the pioneers sat back and said we will make it a game of tag in competition and then said we will change it over to EBP system some 70 years ago. You know I have some early pioneers right around the corner from me here in Texas and they did not see TKD becomming such heavily influence in the sportside. So I really doubt if the true pioneers had this Olympic ideal in there head when the name TKD was made that night in Korea.

Last thing I question because I live in a country that allows me to be free, by me being a US citizen I have the right to my opinion and just because it does not relate to yours does not make your any better than mine. I believe 48 year mean something but that does not mean you or anybody else is superior to me or my G.M..

 

[Archtkd]

Towards the removal of Taekwondo from the Olympic Games in the foreseeable future.

Please expound on that. You might know something about the current WTF leadership that many of us don't know but, I still don't see how that regime could be focused on getting Taekwondo out of the Olympics.

 

[puunui]

This is directed to you puunui, you do not know me except from my website and you believe me to be a lonely 4th so I should look up to my seniors. This tels me you really do not know much about me and my rank, as far as respecting my seniors I do but first they must truely be my senior not somebody that brought there rank by going to USAT and jumping four ranks, they are not my senior, they are a joke to me sorry but it is my GOD given right to say this.

I never said any of that, you did. I think you are reading too much into it and getting upset, frankly for nothing. And I didn't take any promotion test from USAT. I know some people who did participate, and they were in my opinion, deserving of promotion. Others, maybe not so much. I do know that the Kukkiwon took a lot of grief and there were many problems associated with that special test at US Open, to the point where I don't think the Kukkiwon will sponsor that sort of thing with USAT ever again. One issue, for example: The candidates who passed their skip dan test were required to submit the testing fees for all of the ranks skipped as well as the present rank which was approved. So for example, if you went from 1st to 4th Dan, you were supposed to pay the fees for 2nd-4th, which the candidates submitted. However, USAT only submitted the 4th Dan fee to Kukkiwon, keeping the rest.

Next thing my G.M. is still mad at me for not grading for 17 years, if I had you would probaly be the in my ball park of rank.

Maybe. then again maybe not. But it doesn't really matter what your rank or mine is. I let the quality of my posts speak for me, not my rank.

People that tell me I have no respect kill me, what you should be saying is I do not have the right to ask because that is what it boils down to I am your supperior so do not ask.

You must have missed the post where I said I question my teachers and seniors all the time, but that there is an art to it. One thing though, when you get an answer from your teacher or senior, sometimes it takes a while before you truly and fully understand the answer. I know from my own experience there were answers to questions that I didn't finally get until decades later.

Next thing if the WTF and KKW are the same why two different aspect one for the sport and one for tradition? They broke it up not me, why get offended on what you say are the choosen ones? Bring the two fashen together and make them both be unified, because as of right now they do not see eye to eye on alot of issues. Now tell me is this because of big ego's or the money that comes from the sportside?

They broke it up because Dr. Un Yong KIM is no longer the head of both anymore. But can you restate the above? I am having a hard time understanding what you are asking.

If there is no different in kicking techs., tell me this why do you need to come up on a angle to score with certain EBP systems? Have you seen every EBP system and used them, tell me again how it is not about the sport, I cannot believe the pioneers sat back and said we will make it a game of tag in competition and then said we will change it over to EBP system some 70 years ago. You know I have some early pioneers right around the corner from me here in Texas and they did not see TKD becomming such heavily influence in the sportside. So I really doubt if the true pioneers had this Olympic ideal in there head when the name TKD was made that night in Korea.

ok. One poin though, if you need to come up on an angle to score or you have to change tactics in order to score on a different electronic hogu for WTF competition, the Kukkiwon wouldn't be opposed to that. In fact, if you attended the Kukkiwon Instructor Course, at least in Korea, and Coach KIM Se Hyuk was the one leading the kicking drills portion of the course, you could raise your hand and ask him about all of that stuff, and he would answer you, with no objection from any Kukkiwon instructor or official.

Last thing I question because I live in a country that allows me to be free, by me being a US citizen I have the right to my opinion and just because it does not relate to yours does not make your any better than mine. I believe 48 year mean something but that does not mean you or anybody else is superior to me or my G.M..

Too bad DD isn't around anymore. You would have made a very good member.

 

[puunui]

Obviously, you do not and while I don't agree with you, I do like the case you make to support your statement.

I can't control the way you think, or what you do. But if you are looking at something from a different perspective because of one of my posts, then that's good. One of the reasons why I post on these things, besides the fun factor, is to challenge myself by exposing myself to different points of view. One thing I like about MT is that it is composed of members outside of the Korean Martial Arts. If I only were exposed to KMA practitioners, then my viewpoint becomes decidedly narrow. So I like to study or at least hear about other martial arts, and see what they are doing, and then apply that to KMA.

 

[puunui]

You might know something about the current WTF leadership that many of us don't know but, I still don't see how that regime could be focused on getting Taekwondo out of the Olympics.

I can tell you that at a dinner hosted by the KTA in November of last year, Dr. Un Yong KIM gave a speech warning us that the IOC and its members do not like Taekwondo, that in fact they HATE Taekwondo, and that continued inclusion in the Olympic Games should be a very real concern for all of us.

One of the reasons why the IOC and its members (not all) do not like Taekwondo is because there always seems to be some sort of controversy or drama. The WTF certainly is not a model IOC International Federation. Almost from the very beginning of his Presidency, there were allegations that President Choue tried to bribe another IOC member in England during an event. Mr. Nat Indrapana, IOC member from Thailand and WTF Vice President, lost his bags during an event in London or some other city in the UK, whereupon there was suddenly a gift of $10,000 to him from the WTF Secretary General. Mr. Indrapana declined the gift and reported this incident to the IOC.

There is also much controversy surrounding the WTF MNA (Member National Association) in disputes which reach the IOC. Australia, which I have written about previously, is one.

The cuban competitor kicking the referee in the face during the last Olympics, with several IOC members present, was a black eye, not only for the WTF and Taekwondo, but for the IOC as whole.

The biggest concern about Taekwondo and the WTF comes from the questions concerning the leadership of President Chungwon CHOUE, especially when compared to Dr. Un Yong KIM's leadership. When Dr. Kim would have a meeting with the Olympic family, everyone would lean forward to hear his viewpoint and for him to explain what direction we needed to go into to continue to prosper.This was especially true in Asian countries, where Dr. Kim was looked upon as an Asian or World leader in the Olympic movement, and not just in Korea.

In contrast, when President Choue visits Asian countries, everyone leans forward to hear his views, but he extends none and instead brags about how he is a man because he can out drink everyone at the table.

That kind of stuff.

Electronic scoring is another fiasco. The WTF promised the IOC that it would have electronic scoring at the 2008 Beijing Games, but that never happened and it looks highly unlikely that electronic scoring will be used at the London Games.

We can also go into the internal problems that the WTF has faced, the lies and broken promises that President Choue has made to the WTF voting members, as well as his own personal issues, but I think you get the point.

 

[d1jinx]

In both competition and self defense (which I think you are talking about), the highest level is executed from a hands down position. In the poomsae, many of the forms, most actually, begin from a hands down position. This is a basic self defense tactic wherein you do not wish to alert your opponent as to your intention. This is especially true if your opponent is outside of your immediately striking range.

In Taekwondo competition, a basic premise is that we stand outside of the opponent's kick range, meaning that the opponent has to take a step or slide forward in order to be in range of kicking. That extra distance gives us enough time to react to anything that the opponent does. Standing that extra distance also increases the probability that the initial kick to be executed will be one to the body, since body kicks are longer than head shots. All of these factors favors keeping one's hands down, when standing outside of an opponent's immediate kick range.

Also, there is no leaning back in competition. Modern competition favors an upright stance, not leaning back, because if you lean back, mobility is hampered. There are some exceptions of course, but the basic stance in either upright, or slightly forward, not leaning back.



I disagree that leg techniques are inherently slower than hand techniques, because you still need your legs to get into your opponent's range. I'll give you an example. I have students who train in both GJJ and Taekwondo, and they enter various MMA competitions. The basic strategy that we have developed for them is that there is only two ranges, kick range and grappling range. Most competitors in both taekwondo and MMA events, or any martial art really, kick short, meaning that they are most effective with their kicks at a range which is very similar to punching range.

We recognize that and so we launch our kicks from outside of punching range, which really messes up those MMA fighters. They don't know how to respond because all their training is geared towards kicking within almost punching range. So when we take that away from them, they get frustrated and angry, and then rush in, which takes us into grappling range. So we completely neutralize 98% of people out there with their main weapon, the over hand right hand punch. They don't even come close to landing a punch, whether we have our hands up or not.




Large technical difference between what? I thought the discussion was about technical differences between the Kukkiwon and WTF.

Interesting perspective.... one I have not heard before... or much less given any thought about. Day one was hands up, but I can see the idea of hands down not to alert one of your intentions or defense. interesting point of view.