TKD Pioneers Were Not Monolithic

[terryl965]

I am going to add this from pages 85-86 of the textbook.....

Dan/Kup no grade - course basic course -

Theories Techniques
value & aim of TKD, warming up exorcise
TKD spirit, how to clench the fist
regulations to be observed by trainees, Basic stances
propriety norms, Basic motion
how to keep and fold the dobok & Belt, Prearrange Kyorugi
meditation, apchagi
names of bodily parts & vital points, yopchagi
dollyochagi


8th to 4th kup preliminary course

present statue of TKD, makki
history of TKD attack, dodging
names of vital points, poomsae(Tae Gueks 1-5 or Palgwe 1-5)
basic motion & basic theory of poomsae, footkick

3rd to probationary Dan preliminary technical course

concept and definition of TKD poomsae, TG or Palgwe 5-8
competition rules, footkicks
first aids and preventin of injuries free kyorugi, kyokpa, self defense art

I am not even going to list he BB stuff but this is the table of training curriculum as listed on page 85 & 86. If anybody would liek to point me to more of a curriculum that the KKW has I am more than happy to listen and learn because I am all about training and method of training.

One last thing I found interesting on page 86 is that Black belt need to learn more about competition rules and regulation, if it is not a sport than why do we need to learn more about competition? Should we not be more focus on S.D. and our growth as a TKD'er?

 

[puunui]

Sorry, you lost me with "stage three thinking" - what are the stages in thinking?

If you read the Modern History book, then you will see that the pioneers approached unification on three points. First stage was agreeing on a name, first Taesoodo, then Taekwondo. Next was certifying everyone under a unified organization, first under the KTA, then under the Kukkiwon. Third stage is unification of curriculum, first under the KTA, then under the Kukkiwon.

Stage one, most practitioners who will call their art Taekwondo have already done so.

Stage two, the Kukkiwon, through the pioneers, did not discriminate but tried to be as inclusive as possible and gave everyone Kukkiwon certification.

Stage three, was unification of curriculum, first in Korea through the mandatory Kukkiwon Instructor certification program, and also through the WTF through a unified competition format. If you compare international competition twenty five years ago with today, then you will see much more standardization in competition training methods and performance. You don't see too many people sliding around trying to do front leg hook kick for example anymore.

Now we are at the stage where we can start thinking about unification of poomsae, through the Kukkiwon instructor course, Hanmadang, including Hanmadang International Referee certification, and WTF World and Regional Poomsae Championships.

Not everyone is up on the latest things though, my point being that we are all in noncompliance in some form or another. Maybe your poomsae is spot on, but then your kyorugi methods are slightly or greatly outdated. Or maybe you produce the world's greatest competitors, but they don't know the Kukkiwon poomsae. Does either of these extreme situations mean that we are not Kukki Taekwondoin?

The pioneers' approach to unification was that everyone is included, because everyone needs to work on the new stuff. So we start off first by giving everyone Kukkiwon certificates, in the hopes that they will eventually will modernize and update their technical curriculum. There is a section in the Modern History book where the pioneers discuss what is needed in the instructor courses.

Put another way, it can be said that the Taekwondo pioneers took the same approach that is laid out in the Bible. I am thinking about the parable where seeds were thrown on the ground. Some seeds could not find water or ground and died. Others sprouted but were choked by vines, but still others spouted and became fruitful.

Using this parable, some would criticize the seeds that did not sprout or is getting choked off by vines. I am just happy that there are seeds out there that if they have not sprouted yet, still have the potential to do so. Criticizing this or that seed because they didn't do this, or they don't do that, or whatever else, does nothing but serve as a vehicle for disunification. We should be welcoming our brothers and cousins into our house, not slamming the door in their face because they happen to practice a different set of forms or speak a different language, tul, hyung, or whatever.

The pioneers were like that, planting as many seeds as possible in the hopes that as many seeds as possible will sprout and grow. Every leader did this to a certain degree, including GM HWANG Kee and General Choi. They gave out certification to students from other kwan and even other arts who did not know their specific curriculum, so that their art and their cause could grow.

I believe that the pioneers do get disappointed when practitioners only take their Kukkiwon rank and then do nothing with it, or worse, do things to hurt Taekwondo. But I also believe that their focus is and always has been on the big picture, a picture of a unified Taekwondo which includes as many Taekwondoin as possible.

 

[leadleg]

Are you saying straight up challenges or are you talking about the practice of the sword? The reason why I asked is because part of the training especially in nobility was the practice and use of the sword and bow.



Yet, another popular game was two teams hurling stones at each other. It was not played by the nobles but they were the first to go and watch.

I understand the Korean sword was mostly carried on the back,used as a secondary weapon. I also note that in Korean sword practice there is no "drawing of the sword" as seen in Japanese styles.
In Japan duels were legal,there were no legal duels in Korea.
I do not know about the sport of throwing stones, I do know I am not going to practice that.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I understand the Korean sword was mostly carried on the back,used as a secondary weapon.

On the back or hung at the waist, depending on the sword, user, and environment.

Korean sword arts, such as Haidong Gumdo, which use a wae geom (Japanese sword) worn with in the belt with the edge facing up have lifted this Japanese sword arts.

Use of the wae geom is delineated in the Muyedobotongji, but it certainly was not a commonly used weapon, and it would not surprise me if the wae geom was worn hung from the belt. The style of wearing the sword is partly influenced by the fashions of the region. The Japanese wore a different style of clothing and thus wore their swords differently.

Daniel

 

[puunui]

The KKW curriculum is a basic guidelines of principle techs. Please point in to any instructor that only teaches KKW by the KKW textbook so I can reference them. Because all that I know add more to there set of curriculum to help change and develope there people.

I didn't say what you think I said, although I do believe that is what you thought I said. What I said was: I know many instructors who only teach Kukki Taekwondo and their students stay with them forever.

That isn't the same thing as what you said, which is: Please point in to any instructor that only teaches KKW by the KKW textbook

 

[puunui]

I am going to add this from pages 85-86 of the textbook.....
Dan/Kup no grade - course basic course -

Well, at least you are learning. I can remember just a week or two ago you were telling people the Kukkiwon didn't care about color belts, or something to that effect.

I am not even going to list he BB stuff but this is the table of training curriculum as listed on page 85 & 86. If anybody would liek to point me to more of a curriculum that the KKW has I am more than happy to listen and learn because I am all about training and method of training.

All that stuff is a lot of material to cover. Do you include all of that in your class curriculum, or are some of that left out?

One last thing I found interesting on page 86 is that Black belt need to learn more about competition rules and regulation, if it is not a sport than why do we need to learn more about competition? Should we not be more focus on S.D. and our growth as a TKD'er?

I think the issue is whether there is a separation between competition or "sport" and Kukkiwon. You believe that it is separated; however this things you are posting from the Kukkiwon Textbook tend to show otherwise.

 

[leadleg]

How this was handled in Korea was through the mandatory Instructor Course that all practitioners had to graduate from if they wanted to open a dojang in Korea. Outside of Korea, the Kukkiwon Instructor Course is voluntary, so we have more diversity. But, if practitioners wish to get promoted to Kukkiwon 8th Dan or higher, they must physically test at the Kukkiwon. So those who live outside of Korea can theortically get promoted to Kukkiwon 7th Dan, but if they want higher rank, then they have to at least practice the yudanja poomsae for their Kukkiwon test.




There shouldn't be any issue between the way the Kukkiwon poomsae are taught and the older stances are taught because they are based on the same stances.

All stances are based on the same stance,of course.
I am saying those stances as taught for ,say, basai, are done with extreme exageration of depth and length,that is the way that form was meant to be done.
On the other hand KKW forms are done with a more natural stance, not too deep,not too long.
I learned my stances from a shotokan praticioner,my father, then from a moo duk kwan instructor, when I started doing KKW Poomse it was challenging to not drop too low.If you mixed the stances you could not get back to your spot,which meant pushups,I had very strong arms and traps from that experience.
When I met Dr.Park he explained the forms to me and the direction they should take me.He was at the time on the technical commitee for the WTF.
So I do know what some people are going through with the stances, and believe some styles of forms should be done with exagerated stances and others with the more natural stance.

 

[miguksaram]

Korea for several centuries followed a path of Neo Confucianism. Martial arts were for the military. Korea did not have a warrior or militaristic culture like Japan did. Nor was dueling popular like it was in western Europe.

Which is why asked if he was referring to duels or just the practice of martial skills. Even though they were Neo Cofucianism, they did practice military arts as part of the learning structure. Since the nobility faction of society went on to be the Generals and officers of the military they had to have those skills as part of their education. Yes totally different from the way Japan developed their system, but Korea did practice military arts.

 

[terryl965]

Well, at least you are learning. I can remember just a week or two ago you were telling people the Kukkiwon didn't care about color belts, or something to that effect.

I have never said the KKW did not care about color belts, please point that out to me, what was said was color belt material was very little and I stand by that.



All that stuff is a lot of material to cover. Do you include all of that in your class curriculum, or are some of that left out?

I cover all the KKW requirement as does my G.M., but I also add more self defense and groundwork. My G.M. always added Yudo and hapkido techs into his curriculum and so do I. One thing I add now a days is more Self Defense for today world but all instructors should be doing this.



I think the issue is whether there is a separation between competition or "sport" and Kukkiwon. You believe that it is separated; however this things you are posting from the Kukkiwon Textbook tend to show otherwise.

I still believe there is and should be, most KKW schools do not focus on sport competition at least in my area. Also the WTF is the ones really governing the sport of TKD.

 

[puunui]

Well first of not every KKW person has done the course because it is not a requirement for rank with them. Heck all the lopezs are KKW Dans and Jean is our Olympic coach and he has never done the instructor course, so I do not see how this pertains to anything I have said.

I was responding to your statement: "the KKW does not know who really knows any poomsae or for that matter and KKW techs at all." by giving you examples of situations where they do know. Also, I don't know if Jean has Kukkiwon dan rank.

This si true to a point, but not all things are as they seem.

What part of my statement is not true: "The Kukkiwon requires all candidates for Kukkiwon 8th Dan and higher to physically test at the Kukkiwon. Also, for Kukkiwon 8th Dan and higher, you do not need anyone to "sign off" on your promotion application."

The Koreans are the one that says you need the rank, so your point does not hold merit in this instance.

For lower levels, of course you need rank (if you have no Kukkiwon rank for example you cannot promote others to Kukkiwon rank), but there comes a point where rank is meaningless and evaluations of one's skill and ability is done by criteria other than dan rank.

 

[terryl965]

I didn't say what you think I said, although I do believe that is what you thought I said. What I said was: I know many instructors who only teach Kukki Taekwondo and their students stay with them forever.

That isn't the same thing as what you said, which is: Please point in to any instructor that only teaches KKW by the KKW textbook

Ok Puuni you are right I read it wrong, sorry sabout that. I am man enought o say whenI am wrong.

Let me ask you this what do you consider Kukki TKD? I teach KKW TKD with add ons and I believe students need to develope a more stable base to be effective in today world. Not trying to put down th textbook or anything but the KKW needs to update it for today enviroment.

 

[terryl965]

I was responding to your statement: "the KKW does not know who really knows any poomsae or for that matter and KKW techs at all." by giving you examples of situations where they do know. Also, I don't know if Jean has Kukkiwon dan rank.

Ok I am understanding you know and yes Jean has his KKW or he could not have competed in international events. All competitors must be a KKW Dan holder.


What part of my statement is not true: "The Kukkiwon requires all candidates for Kukkiwon 8th Dan and higher to physically test at the Kukkiwon. Also, for Kukkiwon 8th Dan and higher, you do not need anyone to "sign off" on your promotion application."

Sorry I though you was saying under 8th needed the instructor course and needed to be there.:asian:




For lower levels, of course you need rank (if you have no Kukkiwon rank for example you cannot promote others to Kukkiwon rank), but there comes a point where rank is meaningless and evaluations of one's skill and ability is done by criteria other than dan rank.

This I agree with but so many know just have there rank though there org. or school and not even worry about KKW anymore except for competitions.

 

[miguksaram]

I understand the Korean sword was mostly carried on the back,used as a secondary weapon. I also note that in Korean sword practice there is no "drawing of the sword" as seen in Japanese styles.
In Japan duels were legal,there were no legal duels in Korea.
I do not know about the sport of throwing stones, I do know I am not going to practice that.

Koguryo, Paekche and Silla warriors would usually have their swords at their waist or in their hands. I am not sure off hand when they would ever have had them on their back. You are correct that they did not have an iaido art that they practiced that I am aware of.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Koguryo, Paekche and Silla warriors would usually have their swords at their waist or in their hands. I am not sure off hand when they would ever have had them on their back. You are correct that they did not have an iaido art that they practiced that I am aware of.

There is a Korean sword form, Jedok geom (Admiral sword) that draws the sword from the back. It is the only one that I am aware of. I believe that it is performed with a dao or a dao like sword. But my observations are the same as yours; worn at the waist. They were generally hung, edge facing down, from the belt rather than worn inside of the belt.

Daniel

 

[puunui]

Let me ask you this what do you consider Kukki TKD?

Kukki Taekwondo from a broad perspective, is anything that is covered in the Kukkiwon Textbook, as well as the modern competition training methods and theories used in today's Taekwondo competition at WTF International Events. The modern training methods, for example, is more than enough material to fill a school curriculum.

 

[puunui]

You are correct that they did not have an iaido art that they practiced that I am aware of.

there is a section on Japanese sword techniques in the Mooyeadobotongji.

 

[puunui]

Ok I am understanding you know and yes Jean has his KKW or he could not have competed in international events. All competitors must be a KKW Dan holder.

Back when Jean was competing, they only enforced that at the Olympic Games. I know for example Chavela Aaron didn't have Kukkiwon dan certification when she won silver at the 1991 World Championships. I think USAT covers the Kukkiwon certification now for international athletes.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

there is a section on Japanese sword techniques in the Mooyeadobotongji.

Yes (wae geom), but it isn't iaido.

Daniel

 

[miguksaram]

there is a section on Japanese sword techniques in the Mooyeadobotongji.

Yes, but I do not believe they dwelved into iaido practice. One of the things I am interested in learning through my history research is the interactions of the Japanese with Koreans where items like the Wae Geum would come into play. How I have seen the interpreations of the MYDBTJ the Wae Geum does not really resemble that of Japanese swordsmanship.

 

[dancingalone]

As a Shorei-ryu practitioner, I find the the KKW Poomsae very robotic and stiff. I would not grade them as sloppy or unfocus. It is my own personal opinoin that the poomsae lack personality, or umph. However, I blame my own lack of understanding them more than the forms themselves.

I have no idea what a Trias guy might think, but I've friends active in SKIF and JKF. We've had conversations where the Tae Geuk forms come up, and sloppy and unfocused usually come up at some point in relation to the short stances and the (probably) purposeful lack of kime. It all depends on where you are standing from, I guess. That's meant to be more of a statement about relative systems and not anything personal by the way. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.