Sport Vs. KKW

[puunui]

By this I mean, I have seen and know of schools who do a version of the taegueks. They have differences such as stances, where the Kiap is, and hell some even add extra and different moves. They do a modified Taeguek/Koryo/GuemGang/Taebeak/Pyongyong/Sipjin/JiTae... The instructors are not KKW certified nor do they certify or attempt to do it the KKW way...They SHOULD NOT CLAIM TO BE KKW.

Make any sense?

The problem with that is that the students don't usually know any better and may actually believe that what they are doing is the way it is supposed to be done. Perhaps the head instructor or the one that made the changes knew better, but over the generations, that got lost, and now you have these mutations who truly believe what they are doing is the correct way. I come up against that all the time, usually from people who argue I am wrong and don't know what I am talking about and yet refuse to provide any sort of factual basis for their strongly held, down to the middle of my bones, beliefs.

One example, long wide stances. Al Cole and I brought that topic up ten years ago and people were extremely angry that we would have the nerve to suggest that what they learned wasn't correct. We asked to to simply look at the Kukkiwon Textbook if they didn't believe us and they wouldn't even do that. Or if they did look, they felt that the Kukkiwon was wrong.

But I do believe that the internet is changing things and more people are doing google or youtube searches and finding out for themselves. Generally it is the younger generation who are not so set in their ways that are more open to change.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

The problem with that is that the students don't usually know any better and may actually believe that what they are doing is the way it is supposed to be done. Perhaps the head instructor or the one that made the changes knew better, but over the generations, that got lost, and now you have these mutations who truly believe what they are doing is the correct way. I come up against that all the time, usually from people who argue I am wrong and don't know what I am talking about and yet refuse to provide any sort of factual basis for their strongly held, down to the middle of my bones, beliefs.

One example, long wide stances. Al Cole and I brought that topic up ten years ago and people were extremely angry that we would have the nerve to suggest that what they learned wasn't correct. We asked to to simply look at the Kukkiwon Textbook if they didn't believe us and they wouldn't even do that. Or if they did look, they felt that the Kukkiwon was wrong.

But I do believe that the internet is changing things and more people are doing google or youtube searches and finding out for themselves. Generally it is the younger generation who are not so set in their ways that are more open to change.

The internet also has an adverse effect for the kukkiwon at times. Now young people do their research before joining a club and Id love a dollar for every new student we get who says "Im looking for a tkd club that is not affiliated with the kukkiwon", most of our students chose our club because they dont want to learn "sport tkd". We also get a lot of tkd students who change over to our club once they realise their old club taught the sport version.

 

[d1jinx]

The problem with that is that the students don't usually know any better and may actually believe that what they are doing is the way it is supposed to be done. Perhaps the head instructor or the one that made the changes knew better, but over the generations, that got lost, and now you have these mutations who truly believe what they are doing is the correct way. I come up against that all the time, usually from people who argue I am wrong and don't know what I am talking about and yet refuse to provide any sort of factual basis for their strongly held, down to the middle of my bones, beliefs.

One example, long wide stances. Al Cole and I brought that topic up ten years ago and people were extremely angry that we would have the nerve to suggest that what they learned wasn't correct. We asked to to simply look at the Kukkiwon Textbook if they didn't believe us and they wouldn't even do that. Or if they did look, they felt that the Kukkiwon was wrong.

But I do believe that the internet is changing things and more people are doing google or youtube searches and finding out for themselves. Generally it is the younger generation who are not so set in their ways that are more open to change.

Agree 100%.

I am guilty of this also. I did the long stances because thats how I was taught. Then a few years back went to a KKW taught Poomse seminar and was shown the way they do it. asked when it had changed and was told it had not changed and was the same way for quite some time. When I got home, I looked in my KKW textbook that i have had since it came out in 1996 and guess what.... yup, just like they showed us in the seminar!

And the Internet has shrunk the world and expanded knowledge...

 

[d1jinx]

The internet also has an adverse effect for the kukkiwon at times. Now young people do their research before joining a club and Id love a dollar for every new student we get who says "Im looking for a tkd club that is not affiliated with the kukkiwon", most of our students chose our club because they dont want to learn "sport tkd". We also get a lot of tkd students who change over to our club once they realise their old club taught the sport version.

Had you (or them) ever trained with or been taught by any of the KKW instructors from KKW, you would quickly understand... THEY ARE NOT SPORT TKD.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Had you (or them) ever trained with or been taught by any of the KKW instructors from KKW, you would quickly understand... THEY ARE NOT SPORT TKD.

I can only go on what Ive been told by students who come over from kukki clubs. They have told me that a large portion of their training is dedicated to competition style sparring, they also said they are heavily encouraged to enter tournaments. Another problem they have is the lack of training dedicated to punching, some have said they would spend about 10% of their total training time doing punching. Also, they say high kicks are encouraged as extra points are apparantly scored for kicks to the head, we do some high kicks (as that is tkd) but the majority of our kicking is aimed at the chest or lower because our main aim is always self defence. They have also said that it usually takes about 2 years to get a black belt which they werent comfortable with, believing at least a 4-5 years of training should be done to get a black belt. I know nothing about taeguek forms but they also complain of the short stances and believe the taegeks are too easy compared to palgwes. All this is just heresay, however, because I have not trained at a kukki club but I have heard these things more than just a couple of times. Bear in mind also, that we were a kukki club up until about 10 years ago so many of our higher dans have kukki certification up to a certain point where we ceased our affiliation. When the direction of tkd changed (as they put it) the decision to leave was not made lightly, our GM and about 30 instructors discussed it at length before finally leaving.

 

[bluewaveschool]

My post was in jest, I seriously do not care if someone doesn't want to respect what I know because I don't have a piece of paper.

 

[andyjeffries]

not to mention that its called FIST foot way and yet rarely, if ever, scores punches.

No, it's not. If you want to translate it in to one word meanings like that it would be Foot FIST Way - fist is second. I'm sure you can look up the Hanja if you like : 跆拳道.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

No, it's not. If you want to translate it in to one word meanings like that it would be Foot FIST Way - fist is second. I'm sure you can look up the Hanja if you like : 跆拳道.

I was more referring to the fact that "fist" is in the title, not necessarilly the order its written in. I would assume from the title that equal emphasis would be placed on kicking and punching and I know of many schools where that definetely is not the case. Im also talking about hand techs/punches being practiced outside of forms as it is with kicking drills. Some schools only rely on forms for teaching any sort of punching.

 

[andyjeffries]

I was more referring to the fact that "fist" is in the title, not necessarilly the order its written in.

Ah OK, when you capitalised the first word it came across as meaning "it's the first word in the name but it's not the most important in practice".

I would assume from the title that equal emphasis would be placed on kicking and punching

I wouldn't, normally in a list of things the less important items are to the right.

I know of many schools where that definetely is not the case. Im also talking about hand techs/punches being practiced outside of forms as it is with kicking drills. Some schools only rely on forms for teaching any sort of punching.

I would say I train at a fairly balanced school: we practice poomsae, step sparring, self defence, kyukpa (sometimes) and sparring. When we spar, we use WTF rules. The majority of our punching practice comes from poomsae and step sparring.

We certainly don't practice punching drills in the same way we practice kicking drills (advanced movement, techniques from sparring stance rather than a more traditional/static stance).

Then again, if I want to learn how to punch better (beyond the practice as part of sparring drills and poomsae) then I'll learn boxing/thai-boxing. I don't consider Taekwondo to be the ultimate rounded martial art (and I don't think anyone should) so if I want to learn something that's outside of Taekwondo's focus, I'll learn it outside of Taekwondo.

Just my 2p-worth.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

the point is that do arts were seen less for its combative element more so its self development and self discovery aspects. Of course you can use the techniques for self defense in do arts if you wanted to, but this is an entirely different thing than saying a do art such as judo, kendo or taekwondo is first and foremost a self defense oriented combat art where your goal is to destroy your enemy. If you want that, go for a jutsu art.

For the most part, I agree with your post and I think that we're on the same page regarding do/jutsu/sool. My only point was that 'do' was not intended to be exclusive to sport, but more that sport was an extention of 'do.' Self development and self discovery became the focus over time, though in truth, the self defense element remained pretty strongly as well.

As to destroying your enemy, well, that is another topic. I draw a distinction between self defense and destruction of my enemy. It is not my personal contention that taekwondo is focused on destruction of the enemy, though the tools to accomplish that are most assuredly found within the system.

If that is what someone wants, and if they feel that they are getting that at whatever taekwondo school they train at, then that is fine by me. People take up taekwondo for a variety of reasons and fighting happens to be one of them. Others just want to lose weight. The fact that there is room in the art for olympic hopefuls, fitness buffs, people looking to increase their confidence, and those who want to hammer-fist their enemies into dust demonstrates the breadth of the art, which is a huge positive in my book.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

No, it's not. If you want to translate it in to one word meanings like that it would be Foot FIST Way - fist is second. I'm sure you can look up the Hanja if you like : 跆拳道.

Actually, I believe that the hanja translates to 'trample with the foot and strike with the fist way.' Tae and kwon are, if I am not mistaken, verbs rather than nouns. There are separate words for the actual 'foot' and 'fist'.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Question - If I'm not KKW, what does that make me? I'm not part of the 'unified TKD' then, I don't follow their guildlines/standards, does that make me something less?

As you have no parent org, it makes you an independent.

Unified taekwondo is a referrence to the unification of the nine kwans into the Kukkiwon and the subsequent retirement of the kwans, not a universal unification. The ITF is a separate entity and is not included in what Puunui is calling 'unified.'

The ATA is an entirely self contained organization that broke off from the ITF and is likewise, not a part of what he is describing as unified.

Then there are various smaller orgs, such as the National Progressive TKD (federation?), the ITA, and whatever Jhoon Rhee and Hee Il Cho are doing.

After those, you have various independent schools who use established forms, usually chang hon, palgwe, or taegeuk. And that is were your school fits in.

Whether this is lesser or greater kind of depends on one's perspective, though personally, I don't view it in that light.

Honestly, I don't need some mothership to tell me how to run my class. It's done quite nicely without for the last 15 years. Would I like to move up in dan rank? Yes. But not at the expense of being able to teach what I want, decide what is important to my school as far as rank advancement, to continue with our way of doing things.

Well, as mentioned, the Kukkiwon doesn't really tell you how to run your school. Being a KKW school means that you are a KKW sadan or higher. A KKW sadan can sign off on dan certs up to samdan. But your school is not registered with the Kukkiwon nor the WTF. So if someone says that they are a Kukkiwon school, what they mean is that the school owner is a kukkiwon sadan or higher. Likewise, if someone says that they are a WTF school, chances are it means that they are also a KKW sadan or higher and that the practice WTF sparring in their school. Most of the time, KKW and WTF are used interchangeably. Now, you can be registered with USAT.

As has already been mentioned, the Kukkiwon does not direct your school. They are actually pretty hands off.

Now, I do own the Kukkiwon text book, and I've gotta say, it is probably the best investment in a martial arts book that I've ever made. If you consider the defined curriculum in the textbook to be 'telling you how to run your class,' I'd say read it first. It is an absolutely invaluable resource, and my purchase and subsequent reading of it has reignited my passion for taekwondo, something that was on the wane for over a year for various reasons.

The Kukkiwon does not ask that you teach only what is in the textbook either, but that you teach what is in the textbook plus any unique curriculum that your school may have.

Daniel

 

[andyjeffries]

Actually, I believe that the hanja translates to 'trample with the foot and strike with the fist way.' Tae and kwon are, if I am not mistaken, verbs rather than nouns. There are separate words for the actual 'foot' and 'fist'.

You're absolutely right, I just meant that you can check that I haven't reversed the order of the pertinent points of foot and fist.

 

[chrispillertkd]

Well, as mentioned, the Kukkiwon doesn't really tell you how to run your school.

From what I have seen very few of the bigger organizations get into the micromanaging business. From my experience, the ITF has a more defined syllabus than the KKW does but even so there's nothing approaching telling one how to "run their class." Probably the closest I've seen to anyone coming to this is the ATA (from what I've heard) and Kuk Sool Won. Even with them I don't think there's anything like a set of leson plans one must follow, however.

Now, I do own the Kukkiwon text book, and I've gotta say, it is probably the best investment in a martial arts book that I've ever made. If you consider the defined curriculum in the textbook to be 'telling you how to run your class,' I'd say read it first. It is an absolutely invaluable resource, and my purchase and subsequent reading of it has reignited my passion for taekwondo, something that was on the wane for over a year for various reasons.

Interesting. I haven't done KKW TKD in years but I;d be interested in hearing what you think makes this book such an invluable resource. Is the material that it covers? How i's presented? The breadth of technique? Something else?

Pax,

Chris

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Interesting. I haven't done KKW TKD in years but I;d be interested in hearing what you think makes this book such an invluable resource. Is the material that it covers? How i's presented? The breadth of technique? Something else?

Pax,

Chris

A combination of things, really. I liked how the material was presented. It was laid out in various sections beginning with stances, hand strikes, leg/foot strikes, blocks, and then various strikes with both hands/arms and feet/legs.

The next section was poomsae. It began with a very detailed description of what a taegeuk is and what a poomsae is. Then broke down each of the poomsae. The photographs are excellent and well matched to the text, making it easy to follow. At the end of each poomae, the application of the poomsae actions are delineated.

After that came sections on competition and demonstration which I have not yet fully read.

None of the information was 'new' and there were not any major revelations, but the book really is well put together and for whatever reason, just clicked. As an instructor and as a Kukki practitioner, it makes an excellent resource.

One other observation is that it is in both Engllish and Korean, which I also found helpful.

Daniel

 

[andyjeffries]

None of the information was 'new' and there were not any major revelations, but the book really is well put together and for whatever reason, just clicked. As an instructor and as a Kukki practitioner, it makes an excellent resource.

One other observation is that it is in both Engllish and Korean, which I also found helpful.

Out of interest, have you seen GM Kang Ik Pil's book The Explanation of Taekwondo Poomsae, 2nd edition? That's another great book - full of lots of tiny detail on accuracy in poomsae and it has multi-photo pictures of some of the movements to show the shape of it during movement rather than just the finished position.

I'd agree with you though, the KKW Taekwondo textbook is excellent!

I always thought the Cho Dan Bo (provisional black belt) was an ITF thing until I saw it in the KKW textbook (it's only mentioned once though).

 

[chrispillertkd]

I always thought the Cho Dan Bo (provisional black belt) was an ITF thing until I saw it in the KKW textbook (it's only mentioned once though).

As far as I am aware, the ITF has never had a "provisional" black belt rank. Once you're an il dan you're an il dan.

Pax,

Chris

 

[terryl965]

Ok I have a few question about sport VS. non-sport, forget about sparring, one steps or any self defense. Lets talk about poomsae for a minute, the WTF have came up with rule sets over what they call sport poomsae, does this not seperate one from the other? Lets talk Koryo for a good example, nobody I know throws the first two kicks to the floor and to the cieling, KKW is actually the knee and the head, if the WTF and the KKW are suppose to be one why is it the WTF wants the flashy kicks and not the KKW standards? I am not trying to stir the pot but I am really trying to understand how anybody can truely say there is no seperation from sprot and Traditional TKD.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Ok I have a few question about sport VS. non-sport, forget about sparring, one steps or any self defense. Lets talk about poomsae for a minute, the WTF have came up with rule sets over what they call sport poomsae, does this not seperate one from the other? Lets talk Koryo for a good example, nobody I know throws the first two kicks to the floor and to the cieling, KKW is actually the knee and the head, if the WTF and the KKW are suppose to be one why is it the WTF wants the flashy kicks and not the KKW standards? I am not trying to stir the pot but I am really trying to understand how anybody can truely say there is no seperation from sprot and Traditional TKD.

Realistically, once you start competing in forms, you need more than just 'correctness' of form. I haven't really looked over the differences between sport poomsae (seems an oxymoron to me) and regular poomsae because forms competion is not my focus. If it ever becomes my focus, however, I will research it more thoroughly.

Personally, I see the concept of sport poomsae as an aesthetic extension of the traditional poomsae for the competition environment. As I am not currently competing, it really isn't a factor.

Daniel

 

[andyjeffries]

As far as I am aware, the ITF has never had a "provisional" black belt rank. Once you're an il dan you're an il dan.

I always thought it was non-Kukkiwon that had chodan-bo and assumed it was ITF as they're the other "major" group. I guess it's just an old thing that still has a reference in the Kukkiwon book but has generally been dropped (but kept going by some old school instructors).