TKD Pioneers Were Not Monolithic

[puunui]

Could you enlighten me as to what 'chun in steps' are?

A chun jin step is a sliding step forward without changing your stance (same foot remains in front). You can do it three basic ways. First way, the beginning way, is to slide your back foot up to your front foot, then slide your front foot forward. Second way is to slide your front foot up and then drag the back foot up. The third way is to slide both feet at the same time.

A who jin step is the same basic thing, except you are moving backwards.

The steps were introduced into Taekwondo competition by Jidokwan GM LEE Byung Ro, who was a student under GM CHUN Sang Sup and was later an instructor at the Han Guk Che Yuk Kwan with GM LEE Chong Woo. GM Chun had these series of drills based on stepping and kicking with roundhouse. GM LEE Byung Ro died early, I want to say in 1982, and he was the first actual Taekwondo practitioner to receive the Kukkiwon 10th Dan. His best friend was Han Moo Kwan founder GM LEE Kyo Yun, who he studied with under GM CHUN Sang Sup.

 

[puunui]

By the way, do you feel KKW taekwondo was influenced by Okinawan karate? My thought was that the upright, short stances were adopted because of how TKD sparring competition evolved, rather than because of any purposeful decision to emulate Okinawan karate styles, such as Shorin-ryu.

The short upright stances were adopted because that is what GM LEE Won Kuk learned under FUNAKOSHI Gichin Sensei and his son Yoshitaka Sensei. GM Lee originally taught short narrow stances in the 1940's. But after he left, the students, fascinated by Japanese Karate (see Paul Crane's Korean Patterns) would visit frequently on exchange trips and the like. Dr. YOON Kwe Byung facilitated this greatly due to the fact that he school he founded in Japan, the Kanbukan (Han Moo Kwan in Korean), was still in operation. The school is now known as the Renbukan.

Anyway, Japanese karate has those long and wide stances, and so the Korean pioneers, seeing those, adopted it as well. Then GM LEE Won Kuk came back to Korea in June 1967, and seeing all the long wide stances, gave a series of seminars on the original method (short and narrow). This was exactly the time when the KTA's adhoc committee was busy creating the Palgwae and Yudanja forms. So the committee adopted the original short narrow stances advocated by GM LEE Won Kuk, as taught to him by Gichin Sensei and Yoshitaka Sensei.

So I guess my answer is yes, I feel that Okinawan Karate played a large part in the development of Taekwondo as far as the technical aspects. GM Lee and for that matter the other founders like GM YOON Byung In, GM CHUN Sang Sup and GM RO Byung Jick also learned from Okinawan born instructors, not Japanese born instructors.

What Taekwondo adopted from the Japanese were the standardized uniform, the belt ranking system, the system of warm ups which I believe came from the Japanese military, and the emphasis on competition rather than self defense (like Judo and Kendo, the arts that Karate, Shotokan especially was trying to emulate), as well as the strict military like tone and feeling of the class. The Japanese mentality of Bushido was adopted because there was no elevation of the warrior class in Korea.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

I know this thread has morphed a bit, but reply to the OP:

I think part of the problem is semantics, which is often a problem

There are two common definitions of the word "Pioneer"

a : a person or group that originates orhttp://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pioneer# helps open up a new line of thought or activity or a new method or technical development b : one of the first to settle in a territory

From Puunui's point of view, he is focusing on the originators/innovators of Kukki TKD, I believe. But many of us look at our lineages from that second definition of pioneer, those who first brought TKD to new territory. From my perspective both are accurate, but are certainly different definitions. Some of the TKD Pioneers fit both definitions, although my KJN only fits into the latter category.

My KJN was the first to bring TKD to West Virginia back in the late 1960's, so in my eyes he is certainly a TKD pioneer. Others who view a TKD Pioneer as a Kukki originator/innovator may disagree with me, because it does not fit their definition.

It is similar to TKD, many have different visions of what TKD is and what it should be. If you fall under Kukki TKD, then you may have a clear definition of what that is. If you are not Kukki, then you may have a very different vision of what TKD is and where you believe it should be going. I don't believe anyone's vision is wrong, just different. The problem lies in the fact that everyone is under the umbrella of TKD, and we all feel strongly about our own beliefs. So it can be easy to strongly disagree with another's point of view, and I do my best to be objective and open minded when speaking with others that have different point of views on this subject.

After all, that's one of the best ways to learn!

 

[dancingalone]

GM Lee and for that matter the other founders like GM YOON Byung In, GM CHUN Sang Sup and GM RO Byung Jick also learned from Okinawan born instructors, not Japanese born instructors.

Funakoshi, Gigo > Lee, Won Kuk
Toyama, Kanken > Yoon, Byung In

Do you know which Okinawan taught Chun and Ro?

 

[SahBumNimRush]

Funakoshi, Gigo > Lee, Won Kuk
Toyama, Kanken > Yoon, Byung In

Do you know which Okinawan taught Chun and Ro?

I am not sure about CHUN, but I've read that RO studied with LEE Won Kuk under Gichen Funakoshi. Which makes sense, since RO was the founder of the Song Moo Kwan, which is obviously derived from the name Song Do Kwan (a.k.a Shotokan).

 

[puunui]

Funakoshi, Gigo > Lee, Won Kuk
Toyama, Kanken > Yoon, Byung In

Do you know which Okinawan taught Chun and Ro?

GM LEE Won Kuk learned under both Gichin Sensei as well as his son Yoshitaka or (Gigo) Sensei. However, GM Lee said that the majority of his training was under the son, who GM Lee felt was more technically accurate and precise than the father. Both GM Lee and Yoshitaka Sensei worked during the day, so they would both train at night, while Gichin Sensei handled the day classes.

GM Lee said that GM RO Byung Jick learned from Gichin Sensei during the day classes and did not really attend the night classes. He said that GM Ro could not read or write hanja (chinese characters) so the story of him attending college while in Japan was false. GM Lee said that GM Ro was only in Japan for a short while and went back to Korea in the late 1930's, but that he did see GM Ro at the Shotokan wearing a black belt, so he knows that GM Ro received at least 1st Dan from Gichin Sensei. After GM Lee returned to Korea, GM Ro joined the Chung Do Kwan and learned from GM Lee before opening his own dojang in Kaesong in I believe 1947. GM Lee said that before GM Ro opened his Kaesong dojang, he promoted GM Ro to Chung Do Kwan 6th or 7th Dan, which was the highest dan attainable under the Chung Do Kwan bylaws. So GM Ro went from Shotokan 1st Dan to Chung Do Kwan 6th or 7th Dan.

GM CHUN Sang Sup's history is a little more sketchy. It is said that he was a student at Takushoku University and learned Shotokan there. I don't know if he received dan ranking or not.

What I do know is that he and GM YOON Byung In were inseparable during the late 1940's and were always training together and going up through North Korea to Manchuria to learn and train. GM Lee said that those two were so close that it was sometimes hard to tell them apart. GM Lee said that he, GM Ro, GM Chun and GM Yoon tried to work out together a few times but GM Chun and GM Yoon's methods were different so they stopped.

 

[dancingalone]

To your knowledge, do any physical records exist in Japan that corroborate any of the Korean kwang jang training there? I had understood the only surviving/known record is Toyama, Kanken acknowledging Yoon, Byung In as 4th dan and shihan in his book/register of Shudokan karate.

I think someone here on MT said Yoon, Kwae-Byung also trained at the Shudokan, but I am not sure or not if he was listed in the registry himself. That book is listed from time to time on Ebay by a rare karate book dealer. It would be interesting to be able to confirm the two Yoons visually myself. Maybe one of these days.

 

[puunui]

To your knowledge, do any physical records exist in Japan that corroborate any of the Korean kwang jang training there? I had understood the only surviving/known record is Toyama, Kanken acknowledging Yoon, Byung In as 4th dan and shihan in his book/register of Shudokan karate.

I am sure that GM Lee and GM Ro, and maybe GM Chun would be listed in the Shotokan promotion records. The problem is that the Shotokan burned down I believe in 1945, so all those records might be lost.

I think someone here on MT said Yoon, Kwae-Byung also trained at the Shudokan, but I am not sure or not if he was listed in the registry himself. That book is listed from time to time on Ebay by a rare karate book dealer. It would be interesting to be able to confirm the two Yoons visually myself. Maybe one of these days.

I saw both GM YOON Byung In and Dr. YOON Kwe Byung listed on a webpage as shihan under Toyama Sensei. It was in a listing taken from one of his books, with a whole bunch of other Japanese names. I don't know if that webpage is still up or not.

 

[dancingalone]

I am sure that GM Lee and GM Ro, and maybe GM Chun would be listed in the Shotokan promotion records. The problem is that the Shotokan burned down I believe in 1945, so all those records might be lost.




I saw both GM YOON Byung In and Dr. YOON Kwe Byung listed on a webpage as shihan under Toyama Sensei. It was in a listing taken from one of his books, with a whole bunch of other Japanese names. I don't know if that webpage is still up or not.

Yep. That's pretty much my current understanding that Yoon, Byung In is the only Korean with a physical record documenting his karate rank, although certainly other Koreans undoubtedly trained karate in Japan during the same period.

I've tried to find that webpage you reference. If it is off the WKF site, unfortunately it's a dead link, and ultimately we'd want to source the actual book itself anyway for academic interest.

 

[puunui]

I've tried to find that webpage you reference. If it is off the WKF site, unfortunately it's a dead link, and ultimately we'd want to source the actual book itself anyway for academic interest.

I understand what you are trying to say, but I don't think there is any question about GM YOON Kwe Byung's training in Japan. If you want to see a reference, try getting the Renbukan books by Ron Marchini. In the beginning there is a short section on Dr. Yoon, including a picture, and it explains the evolution of the renbukan system. Also there is an article by Eric Madis about his efforts to document Dr. Yoon's training in Japan. The article is in a book with a lot of other articles on different martial arts topics. I can get you the name of the book if you want. I have it but it is at home.

 

[Archtkd]

I understand what you are trying to say, but I don't think there is any question about GM YOON Kwe Byung's training in Japan. If you want to see a reference, try getting the Renbukan books by Ron Marchini. In the beginning there is a short section on Dr. Yoon, including a picture, and it explains the evolution of the renbukan system. Also there is an article by Eric Madis about his efforts to document Dr. Yoon's training in Japan. The article is in a book with a lot of other articles on different martial arts topics. I can get you the name of the book if you want. I have it but it is at home.

This two well researched articles by Robert Mclain offer some good background on the subject.

http://www.arlingtonkarate.com/articles/CMKstory.pdf
http://kimsookarate.com/intro/yoon/Byung_In_YoonrevMay3.pdf

 

[puunui]

This two well researched articles by Robert Mclain offer some good background on the subject.

http://www.arlingtonkarate.com/articles/CMKstory.pdf
http://kimsookarate.com/intro/yoon/Byung_In_YoonrevMay3.pdf

I think Mr. McClain focuses on GM YOON Byung In, the YMCA Kwon Bup Bu founder. GM YOON Kwe Byung is the person who became Jidokwan president after GM CHUN Sang Sup disappeared.

 

[Archtkd]

The short upright stances were adopted because that is what GM LEE Won Kuk learned under FUNAKOSHI Gichin Sensei and his son Yoshitaka Sensei. GM Lee originally taught short narrow stances in the 1940's. But after he left, the students, fascinated by Japanese Karate (see Paul Crane's Korean Patterns) would visit frequently on exchange trips and the like. Dr. YOON Kwe Byung facilitated this greatly due to the fact that he school he founded in Japan, the Kanbukan (Han Moo Kwan in Korean), was still in operation. The school is now known as the Renbukan.

Anyway, Japanese karate has those long and wide stances, and so the Korean pioneers, seeing those, adopted it as well. Then GM LEE Won Kuk came back to Korea in June 1967, and seeing all the long wide stances, gave a series of seminars on the original method (short and narrow). This was exactly the time when the KTA's adhoc committee was busy creating the Palgwae and Yudanja forms. So the committee adopted the original short narrow stances advocated by GM LEE Won Kuk, as taught to him by Gichin Sensei and Yoshitaka Sensei.

So I guess my answer is yes, I feel that Okinawan Karate played a large part in the development of Taekwondo as far as the technical aspects. GM Lee and for that matter the other founders like GM YOON Byung In, GM CHUN Sang Sup and GM RO Byung Jick also learned from Okinawan born instructors, not Japanese born instructors.

What Taekwondo adopted from the Japanese were the standardized uniform, the belt ranking system, the system of warm ups which I believe came from the Japanese military, and the emphasis on competition rather than self defense (like Judo and Kendo, the arts that Karate, Shotokan especially was trying to emulate), as well as the strict military like tone and feeling of the class. The Japanese mentality of Bushido was adopted because there was no elevation of the warrior class in Korea.

Very interesting. Puunui, I don't agree with everything you say, but your arrival on the MT boards and "debate with facts" style has enlivened the level of discourse in Taekwondo threads significantly. Thanks

 

[puunui]

Very interesting. Puunui, I don't agree with everything you say, but your arrival on the MT boards and "debate with facts" style has enlivened the level of discourse in Taekwondo threads significantly. Thanks

I don't expect everyone to agree with me. But if you do disagree, I would like to see a factual explanation as to why, instead of the usual "I strongly disagree because that is how I feel and nothing you can say will change my mind". I don't think that kind of discussion is productive at all.

People ask all these questions, and I don't mind attempting to answer because in doing so, it forces me to organize and re-organize my thoughts on the subject. I like it when people come at me from all different angles, as long as what they come from an informed space. People like dancingalone show up with facts and a different perspective, and so a discussion between us can really lead to someplace new for the both of us. I learn as much as anyone by participating in these types of discussions.

So if there are questions that have been nagging at some of you, by all means ask it. Maybe a vigorous discussion can bring to light points of view that we haven't yet considered.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

I don't expect everyone to agree with me. But if you do disagree, I would like to see a factual explanation as to why, instead of the usual "I strongly disagree because that is how I feel and nothing you can say will change my mind". I don't think that kind of discussion is productive at all.

People ask all these questions, and I don't mind attempting to answer because in doing so, it forces me to organize and re-organize my thoughts on the subject. I like it when people come at me from all different angles, as long as what they come from an informed space. People like dancingalone show up with facts and a different perspective, and so a discussion between us can really lead to someplace new for the both of us. I learn as much as anyone by participating in these types of discussions.

So if there are questions that have been nagging at some of you, by all means ask it. Maybe a vigorous discussion can bring to light points of view that we haven't yet considered.

Great attitude

 

[KarateMomUSA]

I would say that a Pioneer is someone who "blazed the trail".
So 7 Koreans took martial arts back to Korea in the 1940s. 6 of these men opened the 6 early kwans. Dr. Yoon helped with the Jidokwan. They can also be looked upon as the founders of the 5 original civilian kwans or the founders of the 6 early kwans.

The 1st 2 TKD Pioneers that actually left south Korea with TKD instructor listed as their occupation on their passports were Choi Chang Keun & Rhee Ki Ha.
Nam Tae Hi led military TKD instructors to south Vietnam in Dec of 1962.
Kim Bok Man & Woo Jae Lim went to Malaysia to assist Gen Choi in 1963. From there Mr Kim spread TKD to other locales in sout east Asia for Gen Choi, which became a base for the ITF. Of course Gen Choi introduced TKD to Malaysia in 1962. He then led a govt sponsored Kukki TKD goodwill tour around the wolrd in 1965, distributing the 1st English language book on TKD. He was accompanied by Han Cha Kyo, Kwon Jae Hwa, Park Jong Soo & a Mr. Kim. Mr. Park then introduced TKD to west Germany, Holland & other parts of Europe before he moved to Toronto Canada. Mr Kwon Jae Hwa is also considered the Pioneer of TKD in Germany.
Of course there were many others, some even preceeding these gentleman. However they did not so so at the time, under the TKD banner, so you must make a determination of how that should be viewed.

There were also the all important second generation students from the 5 original kwans that came to make Kukki TKD, so as Uhm Un Kyu, Lee Nam Suk & lee Chong Woo, among many others.