The General

[bluewaveschool]

For a guy I've seen referred to as a 'gangster' and a roll up your sleeves and fight guy, why then does GM Son teach no contact sparring? One would think that he would be all for the competitive fighting, get the gear on and go at it. Yet he is the exact opposite in his teachings.

 

[puunui]

Maybe but Dr Kimm, as a historian, doing research for his book on TKD's history, must independently confirm info, which he did

Did he?

 

[puunui]

I think that Dr Kimm's book is some 40 years in the making. I am sure when it will be released that it will vindicate a lot of what Gen Choi said & also point out things that were not accurate.

Maybe. Dr. Kimm suffers from the same issues that plague everyone who tries to forcefit General Choi's version with what really happened. It's like taking a jigsaw puzzle piece that doesn't belong and forcing it in somewhere in the puzzle.

One of the reasons why it s delayed is that he is compiling info on as many Pioneers as he can, giving accounts of where they went & when, along with what they did in their new adopted homelands.

Dr. Kimm's theory is that Taekwondo history can be divided into three stages, the warring period (1945-1954), the developing period (1955-1970) and the maturing period (1971-present). Rather go with that, I would choose to divide up the periods into decades, 40s, 50's, 60's, etc. because to me each decade was uniquely different from the decade prior and the decade subsequent. We are right on a new decade so hopefully things will change for the better. The 2001-2010 decade definitely sucked, and was the absolute worst decade in the history of Taekwondo.

 

[puunui]

Can't you see this?
Do others understand what I am writing?
Or do I need to keep trying to clarify further?

sort of.

I think so.

no.

 

[puunui]

For a guy I've seen referred to as a 'gangster' and a roll up your sleeves and fight guy, why then does GM Son teach no contact sparring? One would think that he would be all for the competitive fighting, get the gear on and go at it. Yet he is the exact opposite in his teachings.

Because that is exactly what he learned from GM LEE Won Kuk, no contact sparring. Like I said before GM Son is into doing it exactly the way he learned it, or exactly the way he thinks he learned it from GM LEE Won Kuk. There is no creativity or flexibility in his style, which is probably just the way his personality is, which no doubt was part of his downfall as Chung Do Kwan Jang. That's why I do not think he came up with the name Taekwondo; that is outside of the way he is thinks and operates.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Did he?

I believe so. He realizes clearly that TKD's history is controversal, so he must back up what he writes, all reputable scholars must try to do this. He has interviewed so many people & amassed so much material. Dr Kimm is probably one of the few ever allowed into north Korea to conduct research into KMAs

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Maybe. Dr. Kimm suffers from the same issues that plague everyone who tries to forcefit General Choi's version with what really happened. It's like taking a jigsaw puzzle piece that doesn't belong and forcing it in somewhere in the puzzle.

Sorry but to me this sounds more like a partisan view held by many who do not credit Gen Choi for creating his own system. Since he had little to do if anything with Kukki TKD & even worked against them, partisans & his detractors do not want to see or credit anything that he did accomplish with his style of TKD. Truth be told that Gen Choi's version did happen. It just did not happen in conjunction nor did it support Kukki TKD's development or version. Just to be fair, Gen Choi was the same way or even worse when it came to the Kukki TKD's version or how they developed separate from him.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Dr. Kimm's theory is that Taekwondo history can be divided into three stages, the warring period (1945-1954), the developing period (1955-1970) and the maturing period (1971-present). Rather go with that, I would choose to divide up the periods into decades, 40s, 50's, 60's, etc. because to me each decade was uniquely different from the decade prior and the decade subsequent. We are right on a new decade so hopefully things will change for the better. The 2001-2010 decade definitely sucked, and was the absolute worst decade in the history of Taekwondo.

I have little problem with either approach, as long as it takes into account that in the 1960s the development took 2 different paths, hence 2 different versions of their respective histories. No one better than the other, just different, as they describe different processes with different approaches, etc.
See now I even agree with you that 2001-10 did stink, but for different reasons. Gen Choi passed away before seeing his dream of his TKD return to south Korea & his ITF split & continues to split, a natural result of a long time 1 man show. But for me it still stinks ;(

 

[puunui]

Sorry but to me this sounds more like a partisan view held by many who do not credit Gen Choi for creating his own system. Since he had little to do if anything with Kukki TKD & even worked against them, partisans & his detractors do not want to see or credit anything that he did accomplish with his style of TKD. Truth be told that Gen Choi's version did happen. It just did not happen in conjunction nor did it support Kukki TKD's development or version. Just to be fair, Gen Choi was the same way or even worse when it came to the Kukki TKD's version or how they developed separate from him.

I don't have any problem with keeping General Choi's version of Taekwondo separate from the rest of Taekwondo. the problem comes in when you try to combine the two. It's like the movie Rashomon, you get different viewpoints and completely different stories.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

I don't have any problem with keeping General Choi's version of Taekwondo separate from the rest of Taekwondo. the problem comes in when you try to combine the two. It's like the movie Rashomon, you get different viewpoints and completely different stories.

Yes I agree, even though I don't know that movie.
I don't try to combine the 2, do you think I am?
They shouldn't be combined in my view, which I think is at the cause of much of the confusion, which results in much bitterness from factions that should be friendly, not at war with each other.
Think about it: It seems that most TKDin have better relations with other martial artists then they seem to have with fellow TKDin, because of the Alphabet Divide (ie ITF vs WTF)

 

[puunui]

Yes I agree, even though I don't know that movie.
I don't try to combine the 2, do you think I am?
They shouldn't be combined in my view, which I think is at the cause of much of the confusion, which results in much bitterness from factions that should be friendly, not at war with each other.
Think about it: It seems that most TKDin have better relations with other martial artists then they seem to have with fellow TKDin, because of the Alphabet Divide (ie ITF vs WTF)

I think you do try to combine, as does Dr. Kimm. As for fighting with fellow taekwondoin, I don't generally fight with ITF people. In fact, I basically converted 95% of them here to Kukki Taekwondo. ITF used to be the biggest group here back in the mid 80s through very early 90s; now it is virtually non-existent.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

I think you do try to combine, as does Dr. Kimm. As for fighting with fellow taekwondoin, I don't generally fight with ITF people. In fact, I basically converted 95% of them here to Kukki Taekwondo. ITF used to be the biggest group here back in the mid 80s through very early 90s; now it is virtually non-existent.

Don't see how you can come to that conclusion. I have been very consistent in saying that while they had common roots, the paths diverged in the 1960s, with one having little if anything to do with the other develpment

 

[leadleg]

When the AAU regained its TKD program there were plenty of ITF "style" schools who joined the organisation, I would say mostly,ITF.They did not want to do Olympic style sparring,GM Bill Dewart had a lot to do with getting them to include WTF style fighting.
After all these years the Olympic fighting has dominated the field of competition.
Many ITF styles began doing olympic and those that wished their students to fight at ustu/usat events went to KKW for certification.
I do not know the numbers but it should be noted that the style of fighting had something to do with converting these ITF students and instructors.
While I think it is important to weed out some infractions in the history of these two orgs I believe it would serve to forget about the small stuff as it only hurts the relationship between the two for belittling their leaders.
I for one see it as childish to fight over who started the WORD Taekwondo.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

When the AAU regained its TKD program there were plenty of ITF "style" schools who joined the organisation, I would say mostly,ITF.They did not want to do Olympic style sparring,GM Bill Dewart had a lot to do with getting them to include WTF style fighting.
After all these years the Olympic fighting has dominated the field of competition.
Many ITF styles began doing olympic and those that wished their students to fight at ustu/usat events went to KKW for certification.
I do not know the numbers but it should be noted that the style of fighting had something to do with converting these ITF students and instructors.
While I think it is important to weed out some infractions in the history of these two orgs I believe it would serve to forget about the small stuff as it only hurts the relationship between the two for belittling their leaders.
I for one see it as childish to fight over who started the WORD Taekwondo.

This is a good example of how working together can eventually lead to better relations & more inclusion.
Just to be clear that I am not fighting over who came or "started the WORD Taekwondo". It is almost universally known & accepted that it was Gen Choi.
I also feel that correcting the history of TKD & showing both the common roots & the 2 different paths of development the 2 major groups took, will both help foster understanding & promote inclusion. For far too long both sides have been too busy fighting & in my opinion it is time to stop. One way to start the stop is to simply tell the truth about what happened both early on & how the 2 sides developed from the same roots differently, not better, just differently. Once that happens people can see how much we really do share & how much we have in common.
I sincerely hope that this does not sound childish

 

[leadleg]

I do not think any of your posts are childish,I enjoy them for the most part.I will accept the notion that Gen.Choi derived the name TKD but I believe the art itself started with Won Kuk LEE. Hmm, merry go round...

 

[KarateMomUSA]

I do not think any of your posts are childish,I enjoy them for the most part.I will accept the notion that Gen.Choi derived the name TKD but I believe the art itself started with Won Kuk LEE. Hmm, merry go round...

Thank you, but then we have to be honest & then credit GM Lee's teacher, Funakoshi Sensei, making that merry go round go round even some more & making some less merry!

 

[chrispillertkd]

Sorry but I don't know about any horse, but Dr Kimm He Young verified that Gen choi actually taught at the YMCA in Japan.

Correction, Dr. Kimm, who has been to my house and seen my book collection, repeated what General Choi said about teaching at a YMCA in Japan. Accordingly to chrisspillertkd, that doesn't prove anything.

Well, Glenn, it looks like you're almost paying attention to what I was trying to tell you

You're right that Dr. Kimm simply telling you something doesn't prove it. And even if you chose to believe him that wouldn't mean you knew it was true, simply that you chose to believe him. After all, my main point, rather obviously, dealt with epistemology specifically as it relates to taking someone's word. It is something we do all the time, many times for good reason, but that is faith, it's not knowledge. (And there's nothing wrong with taking things on faith provided you have good reasons to do so.)

In fact we accept things on faith all the time. Anytime we choose to believe anything anyone says on an internet bulletain board about something that we didn't see, or don't have proof of ourselves we aren't acquiring knowledge. We're simply putting our faith in them.

Anyone could say that they were told something about Taekwon-Do, or its history, and people here could believe them. But they couldn't have knowledge on the subject, barring some sort of independently verifiable proof.

That all being said, I don't know what KarateMomUSA means when she says Dr. Kimm "verified" that Gen. Choi actually taught karate at the YMCA in Japan. She might very well have knowledge of this event if Dr. Kimm did, in fact, verify this. But you and I don't. We can choose to believe this or not, but that will be done based on whether we think KarateMomUSA is a reliable witness since Dr. Kimm's evidence isn't available. Much the same as the evidence for many of the things you say isn't available.

Pax and Merry Christmas,

Chris

 

[chrispillertkd]

As the KCIA stepped up there efforts, the ITF was near total collapse. In 1979 Gen Choi went to north Korea where he cut a deal with that totalitarian regime in exchange for support of the ITF. The next year (1980) he introduced his Taekwon-Do there. This was treason & was viewed even by many of his most loyal supporters as being an "anti-nationalist act". This gave the south Korean dictator(s) plenty of ammunition to wipe him out.

While I agree with much of what you posted, how was it treason for Gen. Choi to go to North Korea in 1979? Wasn't he already a Canadian citizen by then? Treason deals with betraying one's sovereign nation, not the country of which one used to be a citizen. This might be a technicality but if we're interested in Taekwon-Do hostory being accurate we should be accurate. Was Gen. Choi still a South Korean citizen in 1979?

Pax,

Chris

 

[KarateMomUSA]

You're right that Dr. Kimm simply telling you something doesn't prove it. And even if you chose to believe him that wouldn't mean you knew it was true, simply that you chose to believe him. After all, my main point, rather obviously, dealt with epistemology specifically as it relates to taking someone's word. It is something we do all the time, many times for good reason, but that is faith, it's not knowledge. (And there's nothing wrong with taking things on faith provided you have good reasons to do so.)
In fact we accept things on faith all the time. Anytime we choose to believe anything anyone says on an internet bulletain board about something that we didn't see, or don't have proof of ourselves we aren't acquiring knowledge. We're simply putting our faith in them.
Anyone could say that they were told something about Taekwon-Do, or its history, and people here could believe them. But they couldn't have knowledge on the subject, barring some sort of independently verifiable proof.
That all being said, I don't know what KarateMomUSA means when she says Dr. Kimm "verified" that Gen. Choi actually taught karate at the YMCA in Japan. She might very well have knowledge of this event if Dr. Kimm did, in fact, verify this. But you and I don't. We can choose to believe this or not, but that will be done based on whether we think KarateMomUSA is a reliable witness since Dr. Kimm's evidence isn't available. Much the same as the evidence for many of the things you say isn't available.

Very good points. I would add that when our outlook or take on something is shaped & influenced by outside forces, it can interfere with us seeing more. This is a general comment. Also generally one has to also weight the motivation of why some people say what they say. I have come to find out that there are not always 2 sides of the story, but rather there are 3 sides to every story. Yours, mine & what really happened. So husband X divorces wife Y. The reasons for the divorce are usually complex, with the truth someone in the middle of the 2, not center, but someone between the 2 versions.
Likewise a red car & a blue car come into contact causing damage (don't worry in this example no one gets hurt). The driver of the red car says it was the fault of the blue driver, while the driver of the blue car says the red driver caused the accident. The police are called to the scene, interview both drivers & whatever witnesses there may be. They check the physical evidence of the scene as well as the damage of the cars & how they are related. They then come up with an official accident report which will be somewhere in between the 2 claims of the very interested parties with high motivation to have their side of the story believed. Now truth be told, witness recollection is far from perfect & that is just because of limitations of memory, perception & differences in observations etc. This does not take into the account of actual & purposeful false statements motivated by less than honorable intentions. So we can have the half full glass vs the half empty glass, plus lying or a totally different definition of a glass etc etc.

What I can tell you about Dr He Young Kimm is that I believe his book will be most comprehensive. I think he is an honest educated man with an earned academic doctorate in history. PhD degrees are terminal degrees usually granted for research that adds new knowledge to the existing body of knowledge. The course work is not only designed in your academic specialty (in this case history), but in in-depth research skills as well. I think that we are blessed as Dr Kimm is also a Korean grandmaster that speaks the language & lived in Korea during the time that some of these events unfolded. I think he is an honest & capable researcher. I understand that he knows how controversial the history of TKD is & how whatever work he produces may be subject to attack by those that do not agree with his findings. Therefore I think such a prudent & talented man of honor will support his findings with independent evidence. If he says that he verified that Gen Choi taught karate in Japan I for one will take him on his word & see what the evidence to support that claim & any other piece of info that he puts forth.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Quote:Originally Posted by KarateMomUSA
As the KCIA stepped up there efforts, the ITF was near total collapse. In 1979 Gen Choi went to north Korea where he cut a deal with that totalitarian regime in exchange for support of the ITF. The next year (1980) he introduced his Taekwon-Do there. This was treason & was viewed even by many of his most loyal supporters as being an "anti-nationalist act". This gave the south Korean dictator(s) plenty of ammunition to wipe him out.

While I agree with much of what you posted, how was it treason for Gen. Choi to go to North Korea in 1979? Wasn't he already a Canadian citizen by then? Treason deals with betraying one's sovereign nation, not the country of which one used to be a citizen. This might be a technicality but if we're interested in Taekwon-Do hostory being accurate we should be accurate. Was Gen. Choi still a South Korean citizen in 1979?

I am not sure when Gen Choi became a Canadian citizen, we could both check. I write mostly off the top of my head. However I don't think it is too important for the point I am trying to make, which is:
I have no problem with people looking at Gen Choi as a traitor. This is a highly emotional topic. People around the world should know the horrors of war. In my view, no one wins a war, but maybe one side just loses less. When it comes to the Korean Civil War, a war still not technically over, it had the greatest amount of casualties in the shortest duration of any war in history. Terrible, terrible devastation, death destruction & displacement of millions. Those of Gen Choi's generation will never forget, nor can many of them ever forgive his going to north Korea, never mind introducing his TKD there. If we are to understand how the nasty Korean politics hurt Gen Choi & others, will also must understand some of the motivation for the anger of many of his detractors.
Now I know that at least until 1988 it may have been a capital crime for a south Korean to go to the north. Open travel to the north by those from the south did not start till after the historic summit that occurred ironically 2 years to the day, prior to Gen Choi's passing, June 15, 2000.
Technically: Now I do not know how south Korean law treats those born in Korea. Some countries allow or tolerate dual citizenship. Some require you to renounce your past citizenship before granting the new citizenship. If you renounced your original citizenship, your birth nation at times will cancel your citizenship. But I honestly do not know. But it does not matter to me or many. He was after all a founding member of the ROK Army, a 2 star major general who wrote the 1st manual on military intelligence for the ROK, his countries 1st Ambassador ever to Malaysia, plus he gave them his TKD which provided them with a powerful propaganda tool & has been used to assist their KGB & intelligence services. Please understand that TKD was point #8 in the 10 points of agreement that the 2 leaders of Korea listed for their agenda to work together & help them achieve steps to reunification.
So regardless of the technical status of the law, he was viewed as a traitor for his outrageous move to the north which was an anti-nationalist act from the south Korean perspective. Now many of his most loyal Korean instructors left him, as this was way over the line for them. They could withstand some of the KCIA pressure till then, but now, they viewed his politics as no longer acceptable. Some pleaded with him to step side from the ITF then, but he refused. They asked him to do his politics, they would give him an honorary life position or something like that & leave the ITF & TKD to them. then they would have stayed & fought the dictatorship, dealt with the KCIA & worked with the WTF. They even had a signed merger agreement with the WTF, which was never implemented by Dr Kim.
This is why I use this inflammatory language to describe his "anti-nationalist" from a south Korean perspective. Now some of his followers went with him to north Korea as well. Some of his followers regard him as visionary for his actions that could have even fallen under the cause of "Pax CHRISTi". So this emotional topic is best left up to individuals to judge. I am sure that history will someday credit Gen Choi for his work on the reunification (TONG-IL) of his beloved homeland. He was even nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize.
It is incredible when you think of it, as he beat the south Korean president Kim Dae Jung by 21 years. President Kim did win the Nobel Prize for peace for his sunshine policy. He did beat Dr Kim there, thats for sure Some can say Gen Choi opened some of the windows & doors a bit for that sunshine to get in & out. Some think he was on the payroll of the American CIA.
He was indeed a very complex man, involved in many complex controversies, which knowledge is most definitely needed if one is to sort out all the confusion & conflicting stories about TKD's history & development.