Article: The TKD Billion Dollar Smokescreen

[GenshinKiDojo]

I am sorry but you really are wrong.. ok wikipedia says so.. guess your right now.. lol

no - Tae kwon do is the worlds most practiced Martial Sport. was Never a Martial art and misconceptions and false history remarks will never make it a Martial art.

 

[Andrew Green]

lol sorry perfect comparison so I needed to reference that.

I'm quite sure the law works BECAUSE one person thinks it is a perfect comparison when it has nothing at all to do with it. Tae Kwon Do = Nazi's is a textbook example of Godwin's Law, it shows that one side has no real argument and is going for a purely emotional response.

If you really did know anything at all about Tae Kwon Do you would know exactly what I'm talking about.

I think I'm pretty safe claiming that I have a better understanding of what TKD is then you come across as having. I could probably even through some corrections on your Isshin ryu stuff that you have on your site at you too. I kind of have a liking for history and philosophy.

 

[GenshinKiDojo]

I'm quite sure the law works BECAUSE one person thinks it is a perfect comparison when it has nothing at all to do with it. Tae Kwon Do = Nazi's is a textbook example of Godwin's Law, it shows that one side has no real argument and is going for a purely emotional response.



I think I'm pretty safe claiming that I have a better understanding of what TKD is then you come across as having. I could probably even through some corrections on your Isshin ryu stuff that you have on your site at you too. I kind of have a liking for history and philosophy.

nope, I truely doubt that Mr. walking ego. I doubt that very much.

hmm. You have no reason to say my comparasion of Nazi and TKD is false. Where do you get that?
No - a perfect comparison regarding the image, mission, lies, best in the world egos and evil negitivity.

Read the website and understand. That is why I compare. Your MMA and TKD ego is making your neck hurt buddy.

I need to change Isshinryu? nah, I have 100% facts on the website. Guess what? It wasn't formed in 50 BC - no lying to the public.

Read my page on MMA if you want my views on it so bad. You obviously know more then anyone else on here.

I tell you facts, if you don't like it o'well.. believe what you want.

Now your going to tell me about Isshinryu too.. lets hear it. I love the talking ego's on here

ego's get you killed on the street. sorry how many world champions do you have?

 

[The Last Legionary]

Did you know TKD doesn't allow you to punch to the head

Tell me, does the Encyclopedia Britannica know this?
http://www.britannica.com/eb/art-71162/One-step-sparring-punch-Chung-steps-back-into-long-stance

Using that wonderful tool known as Google, I find several TKD schools with techniques listed that indicate a strike to the head is a technique. I find competition rules for many arts including Karate, Savate, MMA, NHB etc that limit, restrict or eliminate self-defence techs.

So if you have one fact wrong, how many others are you wrong on too?


I read this thread, I read the links. I see alot of rabid claims, demands to ask others to present proof. I also see threats of legal action should someone actually contact you offline. Sounds like entrapment to me. I noticed the large number of additional sites mirroring the content. Looks a bit obsessed to me.

Oh, and the comparison of someone who fabricated some history to someone who set the world to the torch and masterminded the murders of 12 million people, lame dude.


The simple fact here is, dude made up his own art, and is quite obsessed with discrediting TKD for whatever reason. I'll stick with established stuff that's been passed down a few times, maybe seen a war or 3, thanks.

Oh, as to TKD, last TKD black belt I sparred, lost badly. Seems they didn't teach him how to defend against a steel folding chair to the head, followed by a body check through a wall. Must mean it sucks right?

Later meat bags!




IV

 

[The Last Legionary]

A person's unbalance is the same as a weight.



IV

 

[MJS]

Admin Note:

Apparently some missed the earlier warning, so I'm posting this final one.

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. Please review our sniping policy http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sho...d.php?p=427486. Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile). Thank you.

-Mike Slosek
-MT Asst. Admin

Again, this will be the final warning.

 

[exile]

Folks—Today was chaotic, and I've not been able to follow up this thread since it was unlocked. I'm pretty much baffled, as you are, by what Mr. Whitney seems unable to keep himself from firing at us over the æther, but for me at least there's definitely a positive side to all this: I'm really, really impressed by the sanity, balance, maturity, and knowledge reflected in the posts of all the members, apart from those of Mr. Whitney's, who've contributed to this thread—and an especially heartfelt thanks to those of your who responded to Mr. Whitney's personal attacks on me. For me, two things have emerged from the discussion so far: (i) the sharp thinking and self-control which I see on no other MA board to the extent that I see it on MT, and (ii) the truth of Robert Heinlein's admonition `Never try to teach a pig to sing: it wastes your time and it annoys the pig.' He was, of course, speaking metaphorically, but the adage fits this case like a glove.

The one bad aspect of this thread is that these uniformly terrific posts have been both responses to, and the targets of, some of the most uninformed and intemperate abuses of the internet I've ever seen. It's important to remember, though, that there are MA sites (and non-MA sites, for that matter) where the kind of posts Mr. Whitney has been sending us are not that far, if at all, from the norm—and that in itself tells us all we need to know about the difference between MT and these other places.

So let's raise yet another glass to the terrific board that we have here! :cheers:

...(yes, I know what you're thinking, that any excuse for a beer will do for me, but really, it's not true! )

 

[The Last Legionary]

nope, I truely doubt that Mr. walking ego. I doubt that very much.

hmm. You have no reason to say my comparasion of Nazi and TKD is false. Where do you get that?
No - a perfect comparison regarding the image, mission, lies, best in the world egos and evil negitivity.

Read the website and understand. That is why I compare. Your MMA and TKD ego is making your neck hurt buddy.

I need to change Isshinryu? nah, I have 100% facts on the website. Guess what? It wasn't formed in 50 BC - no lying to the public.

Read my page on MMA if you want my views on it so bad. You obviously know more then anyone else on here.

I tell you facts, if you don't like it o'well.. believe what you want.

Now your going to tell me about Isshinryu too.. lets hear it. I love the talking ego's on here

ego's get you killed on the street. sorry how many world champions do you have?

I see many demands for people to call you or email you.

Tell me there "master", what do you deem a "terroristic" message since you will charge them. From your postings here it would be "anyone who disagrees with me." though I'm not aware of any police departments that could make "alleged TKDer" stick in court or waste the effort to trace such an evil and vile creature back to the slime filled hole you seem to believe they come from. In fact, the number of times you seem to use the term TKD as an insult or curse is rather comical. Please, call me that. Call me a TKDer. I don't want to be left out of the fun here pal.

Oh yeah, I don't have no tropheys, do have some scars, and have had a gun pointed at my head at least once.



IV

 

[The Last Legionary]

Admin Note:

Apparently some missed the earlier warning, so I'm posting this final one.

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. Please review our sniping policy http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sho...d.php?p=427486. Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile). Thank you.

-Mike Slosek
-MT Asst. Admin

Again, this will be the final warning.

Sorry Mike, was typin while you was bashing heads.

Standing down.

 

[Carol]

So let's raise yet another glass to the terrific board that we have here! :cheers:

...(yes, I know what you're thinking, that any excuse for a beer will do for me, but really, it's not true! )

Oh what the heck's wrong with that excuse mate? If I wasn't still on the clock I'd join ya. So instead I raise a glass of Poland Springs from the window office.

 

[GenshinKiDojo]

Tell me, does the Encyclopedia Britannica know this?
http://www.britannica.com/eb/art-71162/One-step-sparring-punch-Chung-steps-back-into-long-stance

Using that wonderful tool known as Google, I find several TKD schools with techniques listed that indicate a strike to the head is a technique. I find competition rules for many arts including Karate, Savate, MMA, NHB etc that limit, restrict or eliminate self-defence techs.

So if you have one fact wrong, how many others are you wrong on too?


I read this thread, I read the links. I see alot of rabid claims, demands to ask others to present proof. I also see threats of legal action should someone actually contact you offline. Sounds like entrapment to me. I noticed the large number of additional sites mirroring the content. Looks a bit obsessed to me.

Oh, and the comparison of someone who fabricated some history to someone who set the world to the torch and masterminded the murders of 12 million people, lame dude.


The simple fact here is, dude made up his own art, and is quite obsessed with discrediting TKD for whatever reason. I'll stick with established stuff that's been passed down a few times, maybe seen a war or 3, thanks.

Oh, as to TKD, last TKD black belt I sparred, lost badly. Seems they didn't teach him how to defend against a steel folding chair to the head, followed by a body check through a wall. Must mean it sucks right?

Later meat bags!




IV

of course there are most likely thousands of TKD schools not training in grappling as well.. that's the BJJ fad since the UFC stuff in 1993 or so. They did not have grappling before, so it's added. That's fine, just don't lie about it. as for head hitting - well some TKD instructors may add whatever they like, it doesn't mean that is how it was formed. Regarding sports sparring.. they can't punch to the face.

Of course.. I must be wrong with everything - lets simply dismiss the facts.

I give, you got me. I'm wrong and your right.

 

[Kacey]

of course there are most likely thousands of TKD schools not training in grappling as well.. that's the BJJ fad since the UFC stuff in 1993 or so. They did not have grappling before, so it's added. That's fine, just don't lie about it. as for head hitting - well some TKD instructors may add whatever they like, it doesn't mean that is how it was formed. Regarding sports sparring.. they can't punch to the face.

Uh... I trained in the ITF, and head shots - with both hands and feet - have always been legal... and encouraged... so does that mean that ITF TKD isn't TKD, or that your facts are wrong? :idunno:

Of course.. I must be wrong with everything - lets simply dismiss the facts.

I give, you got me. I'm wrong and your right.

It all depends on where you get your facts... from my perspective, your last line is correct; from your perspective, no doubt, you were intending to be facetious and/or sarcastic.

 

[exile]

Oh what the heck's wrong with that excuse mate? If I wasn't still on the clock I'd join ya. So instead I raise a glass of Poland Springs from the window office.

:clinks virtual glass with Carol: OK, I'm fine with that!

 

[GenshinKiDojo]

you wrote:
"Oh, and the comparison of someone who fabricated some history to someone who set the world to the torch and masterminded the murders of 12 million people, lame dude."

No, not lame. Bold yes, but very appropriate and accurate. From the brainwashing, to the terroristic threats, to a sick following and super EGOs.

Did Hitler tell his people the truth? No, a sick individual that wanted to control the world and it didn't matter what lies, brainwashing and methods were needed.

This is my comparison, not an emotional lame - let me get a rise out of someone response. Anyone who has been around in the Martial arts world for more then 20 years or so will understand.

 

[Kacey]

So let's raise yet another glass to the terrific board that we have here! :cheers:

...(yes, I know what you're thinking, that any excuse for a beer will do for me, but really, it's not true! )

I would if I could... but I ran out last week and didn't buy any more - so I guess I'll just have to raise my tea instead; it's all I've got!

 

[Bob Hubbard]

You're right.
In most sports you cannot strike the face. Also the groin, spine and a few other vital points.

But I'm a stick jock. I hit people with short blunt objects. I suck at UFC stuff as they make me leave my sticks outside the cage. I do pretty ok at padded stick sparring, but on the street your balls, etc are a prime target. I also aint pulling my shot on the street....on the mat I like to walk out unharmed, and feel it's good to let my partner do the same.

I've sparred kenpo people who pull their shots and only target the chest, as that's all they are allowed to train against. I've been put through hell by other kenpoists who train harder and more 'real'. I've chased a TKD blackbelt off the mats, and had a TKD green belt knock me on my ***. I've done padded stick tap-tap point fighting, which ended with a bruised throat from a brutal takedown and punio choke. It's not the art, it's how you train. "Real Deal" schools are going to be few and far between. The average Karate-Mon doesn't want little Tommy getting hurt, thinks belts are important, and gushes about trophies the size of the national debt. The schools cater to the consumer otherwise they go under. That whole mall rent or main street is pricey. Not everyone is comfortable going down the dirt road, past the burned out rusted Chevy, up the dark unlighted stairs to the dimmly lit warehouse dojo. (yes, thats a real description of a real school, and they kick some serious *** there)

You're right. Sport is not Art. Neither are Combat.
Sport fighting != Self Defense != Combat != Art != Science
There is overlap, but no, they aren't the same.
What you train, depends entirely on how you train what you train.

Take Royce Gracie, limit his targets, limit his strikes, limit his techniques, and make him pull his shots, and you have, point fighting for rugrats. But it's still Royce.

Take PeeWee Herman, give him a stick, a few extra Red Bulls, and tell him "go to town" and you got a skinny, gangly killer.

Kung Fu, Karate, Ninjas, BBJ, TKD, etc. All went through their fad, cool stage. The TKD schools just market better.

Got a better art? Market it better.

 

[GenshinKiDojo]

Uh... I trained in the ITF, and head shots - with both hands and feet - have always been legal... and encouraged... so does that mean that ITF TKD isn't TKD, or that your facts are wrong? :idunno:



It all depends on where you get your facts... from my perspective, your last line is correct; from your perspective, no doubt, you were intending to be facetious and/or sarcastic.

yes, I was being Sarcastic.

Hmnn.. so you obviously trained in a TKD type that had head shots in your school. good.

hey this is a TKD board - do you really think one out of 28 million people are going to agree with me or put there inflated ego down? No chance.

Can you ask yourself something?

What in the world do I have to gain from lying? Nothing at all.

I don't gain anything. I am disgusted with the lies, that's why I am here. I've seen it for over 30 years.

In NJ and all over the world. TKD is only part of the issue here. If someone from a Martial arts lies and says My BJJ is from 500 BC - I would be just as upset because it's lying to the public for what? money.. Lie = money making.. that is sick! Right?

 

[exile]

I would if I could... but I ran out last week and didn't buy any more - so I guess I'll just have to raise my tea instead; it's all I've got!

Ach, I'm sorry to hear that—tea at the beginning of the day, beer at the end is my rule of thumb... but once you've restocked, and Carol is off duty, how about we all meet at the Urusai (along with any of the other great posters on this board) for said toast?!

 

[Andrew Green]

I need to change Isshinryu? nah, I have 100% facts on the website. Guess what? It wasn't formed in 50 BC - no lying to the public.

Ok,

Isshinryu Karate was founded by Master Tatsuo Shimabuku in 1954.

Wrong, Isshin ryu did not become Isshin ryu until 1956. In 1954 Shimabuku was still teaching under the name "Chan Migwha Te". He opened his school prior to that, so that's not 1954 either.

Guess TKD is not the only one to confuse dates...

Sunsu was named in honor of Tatsuo Shimabuku's grandfather.

Sort of, but it doesn' mean "strong man" it means "Son of old man" and was given to Shimabuku as a nuckname by the mayor of Chen when he was working there as a tax collector.

You also seem to have a problem with using the meaning of the Japanese equivalent for the Okinawan name of many of the kata. Naihanchi, Ku san Ku all suffer on this.

Seisan is 13, not 13 hands or 13 anything elses, just 13.

"Cheifa" is wrong, most likely a mistranslation of the word Tuifa, or tonfa taken off the video of him doing it. The kata is Hama Higa no Tuifa, and Hama Higa is a region, not a person.

Most of your descriptions tend to mix myth with what can be historically shown, a flaw you want to point out in TKD history a little too much. Some are rather common (ex. Ku San Ku is fighting in the dark), but still myth and not the actual history or purpose of the kata in any way that can be historically (or practically) shown.

I do find it rather odd that you leave out two of the bo kata, especially Tokumine no Kon as that would probably be the one that best represents Isshin ryu kobudo given the source of it. The other two came from Taira Shinken and are very different from what is practised amongst Taira Shinken's Kobudo Lineage.

Your ku san ku sai description I also find rather odd in that it omits the other half of its history, as it came from combining a sai kata from Kyan with Ku San Ku.

I could continue, but I think that makes my point. For a person so concerned with facts and insistent that you are presenting nothing but "facts" you really should research yours a little better.

 

[GenshinKiDojo]

You're right.
In most sports you cannot strike the face. Also the groin, spine and a few other vital points.

But I'm a stick jock. I hit people with short blunt objects. I suck at UFC stuff as they make me leave my sticks outside the cage. I do pretty ok at padded stick sparring, but on the street your balls, etc are a prime target. I also aint pulling my shot on the street....on the mat I like to walk out unharmed, and feel it's good to let my partner do the same.

I've sparred kenpo people who pull their shots and only target the chest, as that's all they are allowed to train against. I've been put through hell by other kenpoists who train harder and more 'real'. I've chased a TKD blackbelt off the mats, and had a TKD green belt knock me on my ***. I've done padded stick tap-tap point fighting, which ended with a bruised throat from a brutal takedown and punio choke. It's not the art, it's how you train. "Real Deal" schools are going to be few and far between. The average Karate-Mon doesn't want little Tommy getting hurt, thinks belts are important, and gushes about trophies the size of the national debt. The schools cater to the consumer otherwise they go under. That whole mall rent or main street is pricey. Not everyone is comfortable going down the dirt road, past the burned out rusted Chevy, up the dark unlighted stairs to the dimmly lit warehouse dojo. (yes, thats a real description of a real school, and they kick some serious *** there)

You're right. Sport is not Art. Neither are Combat.
Sport fighting != Self Defense != Combat != Art != Science
There is overlap, but no, they aren't the same.
What you train, depends entirely on how you train what you train.

Take Royce Gracie, limit his targets, limit his strikes, limit his techniques, and make him pull his shots, and you have, point fighting for rugrats. But it's still Royce.

Take PeeWee Herman, give him a stick, a few extra Red Bulls, and tell him "go to town" and you got a skinny, gangly killer.

Kung Fu, Karate, Ninjas, BBJ, TKD, etc. All went through their fad, cool stage. The TKD schools just market better.

Got a better art? Market it better.

Bob,

I agree with everything you have said above. So you have an idea on where I'm coming from, my problem is the false marketing. TKD has claimed to be everything from Yoga to Tai Chi.

Honest to God - in the late 70's / early 80's TKD gingerly called themsleves Korean Karate and every karate Dojo was freakin out because they still said Karate, then it went to only saying self defense and it goes on..

I never claim to be the ultimate warrior and teach a perfect combat art. My issues are telling the truth when marketing. Regarding the art or sport taught and also what to consider a Martial art or sport.

I respect Tai Chi alot, however have not studied it. Same with some other arts. I have lived the mismarketing lies and have problems with dishonest marketing.

Regardless, I know the topic of the billion dollar smokescreen website is HOT and people wish to debate etc.

I look at it as - I've seen false marketing for 30 years (honest) and not 1 time did I ever call and tell the TKD person how dishonest it was.

however hundreds of phone calls all my life at the Dojo by TKD people.

This is with no reason other then the TKD instructors did not like my marketing of saying "no black belt clubs"