Sport Vs. KKW

[Gorilla]

Okay...

Basic guard is radically altered in WTF competion due to the fact that hand techniques are no longer much of a factor and hand techniques to the head are not a factor at all.

With no hand strikes to the head allowed, the guard has become a low, hands down position with the competitor leaning back. This both facilitates the execution of high kicks and the avoidance of one's opponent's kicks.

This creates a fighting style where the head is left essentially unguarded and leg techniques are essentially the only choice. This can be done because leg techniques are inherently slower than hand techniques and originate several feet below the head.

I consider the removal of hand techniques and the accompanying change that result to be a pretty large technical difference, particularly in an art whose poomsae contain a greater number of hand techniques than they do leg and foot techniques.

Daniel

Hand techs to the head are still not allowed but hand techs to the body are scored much more frequently than in the past. That is why we are training in Shotokan. The EBP's have changed Sport TKD radically over the last 2 years. More emphasis on punching and head kicking. We have changed are hand position to a much higher guard. Some of the old arguments just don't hold in regards to hand position in Sport TKD!

 

[puunui]

So I guess you are the exception to that rule?

Depends on what you consider provoking, but if that is how you wish to judge me, then that is your business.

 

[puunui]

That is not specifically what I said. I stated numerous times that WTF competition does not address head punches and that that comprises a very large technical difference between the rest of Kukki Taekwondo and WTF competiton.

I never said that the biggest concern is armed attackers or multiple attackers. I said that my biggest concern is.

that's what I said, that might be your biggest concern...

The unarmed attacker really doesn't 'concern' me. For one, I have the training and ability to deal with the unarmed guy.

terrific.

For another, I am not the favored target of most unarmed criminals (male, over six feet, over 200lbs., under fifty, and look like I make less than forty grand a year)

You sound like the guy at the bar, except he was over 225, under thirty and looked like he was on welfare.

Most lone unarmed assailants will pick a target that looks like less of a hassle with greater return on their investment.

I think that is how he saw me.


Finally, and more importantly, I tend to not frequent places where an unarmed attacker will be an issue, such as bars. I am careful about how I handle myself coming and going from buildings and with where I put my car. I am also fairly skilled in verbal deescalation and don't go out of my way to prove things to inconsequential people. [/quote]

good for you. I don't drink anymore, so I rarely if ever go to bars now. I am careful where I put my car, mainly because I don't want door dings. And i guess I am a consequential person to you because you seem to be putting a lot of effort into making your points on this subject.

 

[puunui]

I'm sure you know there is a distinction between a boxer's "guard up" and a Taekwondo "guard up." In boxing, which I did for many years, you often can get away with planting your feet down, having hands in front of you and soaking up punishment from an opponent's barrage of gloved hands. In WTF taekwondo having a static "guard up" will get you broken hands. I know a master who routinely breaks baseball bats with the instep of a roundhouse kick. I'm not going to try to stop a kick from a guy like that too many times, with my hands.

Problem with your logic is that many people think that Taekwondo competition is a game of tag, with lightweight kicks without any power behind them. The one thing that Taekwondo competition teaches or emphasizes, which is completely applicable to self defense, mma or whatever else, is the efficient use of footwork to control distance and angle. It is very difficult to write about but very easy to show. Taekwondo competitors or those trained with taekwondo footwork and steps have by far the best footwork out there.

I had this student once, who taking kajukenbo but was getting beat up all the time during sparring. So he came to me because he wanted to learn how to kick. He was short (5'2") and was fighting guys who were six inches to a foot taller than him. I told him come to class, learn our stance and four basic steps along with roundhouse kick, I will spar with him after class for ten minutes, and within three months he can go and spar with those guys. He did that, trained hard, and after three months no one could touch him and he could move in and out and strike them at will. The sole exception was the assistant instructor who was over six feet and was a former golden gloves boxer. He could hit that guy but the guy would get him back with punches.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

You sound like the guy at the bar, except he was over 225, under thirty and looked like he was on welfare.

That and I don't wear lumber jack shirts or baseball caps.

And i guess I am a consequential person to you because you seem to be putting a lot of effort into making your points on this subject.

Sure. I am enjoying conversing with you. And you're consequential because you are capable of intelligent dialogue and are versed on the subject matter at hand.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Hand techs to the head are still not allowed but hand techs to the body are scored much more frequently than in the past. That is why we are training in Shotokan. The EBP's have changed Sport TKD radically over the last 2 years. More emphasis on punching and head kicking. We have changed are hand position to a much higher guard. Some of the old arguments just don't hold in regards to hand position in Sport TKD!

That is the first positive thing about electric scoring that I have heard.

Daniel

 

[Devlin76]

I just watched "The Best of the Best" on YouTube, and it inspired a couple comments/questions.

First two comments.
1) This is still the best Taekwondo movie I have ever seen.
2) They keep their hands up and punch to the face frequently, even after throwing someone to the mat.

And three questions.
1) Do tournaments with this kind of rule structure still exist?
2) Did they ever exist in international competition?
3) Who would win in a real fight between the Rhee brothers?

 

[andyjeffries]

But surely going by that logic ufc fighters and boxers should fight with their hands by their sides if the opponent is outside of range, they may lower their guard slightly when out of range but they dont do what wtf sparrers do. Either way "going at it" with hands by your side cant possibly be compared to real life self defence.

Having just watched Dominick Cruz fight in the last WEC (53) someone ought to tell him that...

A rather low res highlight reel is at YouTube. Note: his hands are by his sides for most of the fight and the commentators note that it's the best way of frustrating your opponent - hands down and making them miss by head movement.

And before you argue that he's WEC not UFC, he was crowned the new UFC Bantamweight Champion after that fight as the WEC is now no more.

I do however, accept that this style of fighting is very rare (the only other semi-recent example I can think of is Prince Naseem Hamed in boxing) but it does go to show that it's not as ridiculous in MMA as some people think.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I just watched "The Best of the Best" on YouTube, and it inspired a couple comments/questions.

First two comments.
1) This is still the best Taekwondo movie I have ever seen.

Absolutely! Best of the Best is a classic and a must see.

2) They keep their hands up and punch to the face frequently, even after throwing someone to the mat.

Well, that's because the tournament rules of the movie were more like how I hear ITF taekwondo tournaments descirbed.

And three questions.
1) Do tournaments with this kind of rule structure still exist?
2) Did they ever exist in international competition?
3) Who would win in a real fight between the Rhee brothers?

1. Probably, but not in the WTF.
2. Perhaps in ITF, but I'll defer to ITF practitioners.
3. No idea, but regardless of the outcome, if it were filmed, we all win.

Daniel

 

[KarateMomUSA]

The 1st Korean martial art to be called TKD was developed in the south Korean army for self defense. As early as 1962 they had sports rules & held the 1st TKD tournament ever. These rules were devised by Gen Woo Jong Lim, the only other OhDokwan member to ever attain the rank of general, due to the nasty politics of the Park regime & the KCIA. It contained continuous sparring, power, flying breaking & patterns. This was to become the ITF standard sports competition. The ITF later added a free style flying breaking which was dropped by the 1990s. However the ITF has now added a new 5th category called Hoosinsul or self defense routine by 1 ITF & pre-arranged free sparring by another ITF. This new category has been accepted by CISM TKD for the military/law enforcement Olympics, along with ITF Tuls & the WTF fighting that has been in place for years. So even military TKD hd a sports element to it & the ITF still does to this day.

Kukki TKD which developed as TaeSuDo has had their continuous fighting rules, which helped revolutionize Kukki TKD that it is now an Olympic sport that has some 192 member nations of the WTF.

I think much of the innovation, especially the kicking & footwork, can be traced to these rules. However it really is up to the individual school, instructor & student, to what they emphasize & how they train

 

[puunui]

The 1st Korean martial art to be called TKD was developed in the south Korean army for self defense. As early as 1962 they had sports rules & held the 1st TKD tournament ever. These rules were devised by Gen Woo Jong Lim, the only other OhDokwan member to ever attain the rank of general, due to the nasty politics of the Park regime & the KCIA.

I would think that ROK Army members whose primary duties were teaching Taekwondo wouldn't become generals, simply because their duties would limit them. Why would the head of boot camp need to be a general? I don't think the politics of President Park had all that much to do with Oh Do Kwan members not getting promoted to General, since the majority of the senior Oh Do Kwan members seemed to affiliate themselves with the Chung Do Kwan, and the Chung Do Kwan Jang GM UHM Woon Kyu had a very good relationship with President Park. GM Uhm got the ROK Army Chief of Staff to serve as the first president of the KTA, and he also got GM PARK Hae Man appointed as taekwondo instructor at the Bluehouse.

 

[terryl965]

Well I will say this until I am dead, there is a different between sport and TKD. When TKD was tought to the ROK it was not about sport it was about survival, now with that being said sure they adopted rules to show what they have done and that has turned into what is called sport TKD. I have spoke to so many GM and they all say the same thing TKD was about self defense in the beginning and the structure itself changed over a few years to bring it out into the world for competition and sport. I already know some will say B.S. but this gentlemen have been doing this for 50 plus years and I believe they have the background to say this.

 

[puunui]

Well I will say this until I am dead, there is a different between sport and TKD. When TKD was tought to the ROK it was not about sport it was about survival, now with that being said sure they adopted rules to show what they have done and that has turned into what is called sport TKD. I have spoke to so many GM and they all say the same thing TKD was about self defense in the beginning and the structure itself changed over a few years to bring it out into the world for competition and sport. I already know some will say B.S. but this gentlemen have been doing this for 50 plus years and I believe they have the background to say this.

I don't see how your statement above supports your argument that there is a difference. If anything it supports the idea that Taekwondo is unified. Before there were numerous kwans. So what, because they call unified. So how it was before, whether it was for self defense in the past doesn't speak for what it is today. But if you wish to believe that there is a difference, then go ahead. No problem. Obviously, you have your heels dug in on this one.

 

[terryl965]

I don't see how your statement above supports your argument that there is a difference. If anything it supports the idea that Taekwondo is unified. Before there were numerous kwans. So what, because they call unified. So how it was before, whether it was for self defense in the past doesn't speak for what it is today. But if you wish to believe that there is a difference, then go ahead. No problem. Obviously, you have your heels dug in on this one.

Yea go figure sometimes no-matter what some old dogs just will never learna new trick. Also I teach the sportside of TKD alot it seems here lately, I have alot of quality people that come to me for my insight into the sport, I guess I am learning something from some of these people.

 

[puunui]

Yea go figure sometimes no-matter what some old dogs just will never learna new trick. Also I teach the sportside of TKD alot it seems here lately, I have alot of quality people that come to me for my insight into the sport, I guess I am learning something from some of these people.

I don't know what you are trying to say. A lot of quality people come to you for your insight into sport where, on martialtalk?

 

[terryl965]

I don't know what you are trying to say. A lot of quality people come to you for your insight into sport where, on martialtalk?

Just forget it puuniu, martial talk is just a community. I see you are unable to see the joking between the lines.:asian: I surrender to you the all mighty of all on this and all boards.