The Meaning of Ilyeo Poomsae

[puunui]

Actually it wasn't TKD I was insulting rather I was defending it as the extremely effective martial art it is.

If you say so. I disagree.

As of late the 'musings' and lectures on it's history have taken the place of the effectiveness of it's techniques and of it's usefulness in self defence. There is less discussion on techniques and more on the shall we say for politeness' sake the personal views on other martial artists. The value has been placed less and less on training and more on the esoteric joys of ersatz academia.

I've been around discussion forums long enough to understand that topics ebb and flow according to the interests of the posters. From my perspective, topics regarding the effectiveness of a particular martial art is one that an actual instructor can handle directly with the student. Discussion forums such as this and its usefulness are more for topics that cannot or should not be normally handled during class time. History, politics, etc., are some but not all of those kinds of topics. If you want to understand how effective a front kick is, go to class and have your instructor explain it to you.

There is a place of course for Buddhism and spirituality in martial arts but this is a personal and individual choice, stating that one persons view of anything is correct is a folly.

I never stated Buddhism or any other religion was "correct". Where are you getting this from?

If you have an open mind towards discussion and don't insist on your views being always correct and can disagree with amicable posts without them turning personal then that is always welcome. Your views are your views that's all and we all have views.

I would say there is a difference between opinion and fact. Opinions are opinions; there is no single correct answer. "strawberry is the best flavor for ice cream" is an opinion. However, facts are different. WWII started on September 1, 1939 in Europe when Germany invaded Poland is a fact. If an American said no, it started when Japan attacked Pearl Harbor, that is not subject to the same parameters that the ice cream opinion would be.

However it would be nice to have some posts on the effectiveness of TKD rather than it's politics and endless history lessons. 'Book' learning and the 'GM told me' posts are fine for when one wants to sleep but the 'action' posts are better to past on the benefits of TKD.

That's your opinion. Please take your own advice and do not impose your views on the rest of us by insisting that you are correct about what is or isn't appropriate topics of discussion. If you need to be reassured as to the effectiveness of any particular technique or style, then by all means start a new topic. But please understand that some of us do not need that same sort of reassurance about whether what we do works or not, and therefore we do not feel the same sort of need that you do to discuss it. Believe it or not, some of us value different things than you do.

 

[puunui]

If I post up saying my post is in topic it is, because I'd like an answer instead of endless quotes of what GM said to puunui.

An answer to what, how effective Taekwondo is as a martial art in a self defense situation? Hasn't that topic already been beaten to death already numerous times on MT? Again, if you need reassurance about whether a martial art is effective for self defense, then probably the best person for that is your instructor. He can address your concerns regarding effectiveness much better than a message board can.

As for endless quotes from the pioneers, may I offer that perhaps you are not yet interested in such things because you are still in the beginning stages of the journey wherein you are still wrestling with the idea of whether or not the martial arts are effective for self defense. Here is a wikipedia article explaining Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_hierarchy_of_needs

Once people get past the security issues (second level from the bottom), then they can address the more philosophical or self actualizing issues that some are presently not so interested in. It's hard to do that if someone is constantly worried about the effectiveness of their self defense skill set.

When did Buddhism become so important in TKD

If you read the first post carefully, you would have seen this quote from the 1975 Taekwondo poomsae textbook:

The 1975 Taekwondo poomse textbook describes Ilyeo as follows:
"In Buddhism the state of spirtual cultivation is said to be 'Ilyo'
(Oneness), in which the body and the mind, I (the subject)
and you (the object), the spirit and the substance are unified into
oneness. It means that one derives the state of pure mind from
profound faith, namely the state in which one has discarded all
worldly desires. The ultimate ideal of Taekwondo is in this state of
'Ilyo'. In this state of mentality or 'nirvana' one overcomes ego. The
final goal of Taekwondo pursues is inded a discipline in which we
concentrate attention on every movement, shaking off all worldly
thoughts and obsession."

I gave an alternative explanation for this in the first post:

An alternate explanation of the Buddhist overlay is found in the
philosophy of the Jidokwan, which is the third major Kwan that led
the unification efforts. The Jidokwan symbol is comprised of the
familiar figure eight outline, called the Otugi. This represents the
concept of "Seven Times down, Eight Times up". The outline of the
Jidokwan symbol (which is also on the Kodokan Judo symbol,
since the Jidokwan got its start at the Chosun Yun Moo Kwan, a
Judo school) is the eight fold leaf pattern which represents the
Buddhist eight fold path.

Somehow you translated this to mean Buddhism is important in Taekwondo, an art which you don't even study by the way.

and why is it necessary for TKDists to practice Buddhism?

I don't think it is necessary for Taekwondoin to practice Buddhism and I don't believe I have ever said that.

 

[puunui]

Now we're getting somewhere. I couldn't find anything in the OP what a GM said to Puunui or the importance of Buddhism. It sounds like you're annoyed with Puunui's posts or his style elsewhere in the forum and are ranting about it here. Please clarify.

It does sound like a personal problem doesn't it. The funny thing is that people here ask me all the time about what the pioneers said about this or that. Check out the Palgwae bunkai topic where she basically scolds dancingalone and I for talking about GM LEE Won Kuk's comments regarding Otsuka Sensei. If I don't answer someone gets mad, and if I do, then someone else overexaggarates and says that is the only thing that I write about, what the pioneers said to me. Damned if you do and damned if you don't.

 

[Tez3]

Reading posts is often done with the readers prejudices to the front, trolling is in the eye of the reader I'm afraid.
Personal problem no, did I nudge you way from gossiping yes, start another post if you want pass on gossip on other styles founders and let their students answer don't sneak it into a TKD thread.
Combatative? No again that's in the eye of the reader. Merely asking questions is often considered combatative I'm afraid.

 

[Pooja Gulati]

I'm not a mod nor do I play at one, a mentor yes.

If I post up saying my post is in topic it is, because I'd like an answer instead of endless quotes of what GM said to puunui.
When did Buddhism become so important in TKD and why is it necessary for TKDists to practice Buddhism?

Maybe from the concept of an 8 fold path?
And that relativity to the 4 symbols on the flag of Korea, with a doubling matrix spiraling outwards from the middle? Like each side from the opposing direction of the same field? Outwards and inwards

Maybe something that resonates with the 8 limbs of yoga of patanjali

Or from this:

PrabhupadaBooks.com Srila Prabhupada's Original Books

prabhupadabooks.com