Sport Vs. KKW

[puunui]

If there is any possible way of avoiding a fight then you avoid it. "Inviting a guy to meet you outside" is surely not doing your best to avoid fights. I would only ever fight if my families life is in danger, otherwise I see fighting as an extremely barbaric and immature way to settle a disagreement. Surely anybody who has evolved past the cave man days can see that.

How many fights have you been in your life?

 

[puunui]

I encourage it. Mercy is for the weak. Strike First Strike hard, Show no Mercy. Sweep the leg johny, sweep the leg....:rofl: 'jokin' of course.

that's a good example though, because Mr. Miyagi didn't avoid fighting at all costs, and the funny thing is, he didn't distinguish between self defense and tournaments. To him, fighting is fighting.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

How many fights have you been in your life?

Got in a few when I was young and stupid but most of those I didnt throw the first punch and it was either fight or be beaten to a pulp. I also played rugby league where fights are just part of the sport and again, its either fight or prepare for a beating. I am 36 now and havent been in a fight since before I was 20. Ive had heaps of opportunities to fight, when hanging in pubs and clubs but unless someone throws the first punch I will avoid them at all costs. These days when I see two guys fighting I can only laugh, fighting (unless avoidable) is for meatheads in my opinion. People who fight because someone looked at their girlfriend or because someone called them a name or bumped into them etc should go and see a psychologist and get some anger management advice.

 

[puunui]

Got in a few when I was young and stupid

If you don't like to fight, then that's you. No problem. One question though, when you did get into the few fights that you did, did you keep your hands up?

 

[ralphmcpherson]

If you don't like to fight, then that's you. No problem. One question though, when you did get into the few fights that you did, did you keep your hands up?

Sure did. My dad was a boxer and drilled the "guard up" thing since as young as I can remember.

 

[puunui]

Sure did. My dad was a boxer and drilled the "guard up" thing since as young as I can remember.

Ok, did your father tell you to have your "guard up" even if your opponent couldn't reach you with his punches to your head without first taking a step? Or was the "guard up" thing limited to when you were in punching range and/or you were actually engaged in the exchange of blows?

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Ok, did your father tell you to have your "guard up" even if your opponent couldn't reach you with his punches to your head without first taking a step? Or was the "guard up" thing limited to when you were in punching range and/or you were actually engaged in the exchange of blows?

He is very much a believer in turning the other cheek and walking away, which is saying something because he was a very good boxer and would easily dispose of most people in a fight but I saw him turn the other cheek and walk away many times when I was young. He knew that once the hands go up you look like you want a fight, so if someone was so far out of range that they need to take a step just to get within a striking range then he would have probably said walk away. In saying that though, I dont think Ive ever seen two people standing a metre and a half apart yelling obscenities with their hand up as that would look pretty funny. Hands generally go up when the fight starts or when the distance closes. As far as tkd goes I always have a high guard even if the opponent is out of striking distance because once the sparring starts its on, unlike a real life altercation where there is still a good chance it wont be "on".

 

[bluewaveschool]

If a guy comes at me with his hands up like he wants to swing, my hands are going up BEFORE he gets into punching range. Why? Because he might have faster hands that me, because he might have a quick slide in step, hell he might jump forward at me. My father is notorious in class for getting right outside punching range and throwing a lunging backfist. If your hands are down because he's outside punching range, then you are taking a shot to the head. If a 50 year old guy can move like that, a thug on the street can. A shot to the body you can suck it up, shot to the head can make your mind cloudly for a split second too long.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

If a guy comes at me with his hands up like he wants to swing, my hands are going up BEFORE he gets into punching range. Why? Because he might have faster hands that me, because he might have a quick slide in step, hell he might jump forward at me. My father is notorious in class for getting right outside punching range and throwing a lunging backfist. If your hands are down because he's outside punching range, then you are taking a shot to the head. If a 50 year old guy can move like that, a thug on the street can. A shot to the body you can suck it up, shot to the head can make your mind cloudly for a split second too long.

I agree, if a guy comes at me swinging or even with his hands up in an aggressive manner then my hands go up irrespective of how far away he is. My previous post referred more to someone just yelling or carrying on, in that case I wouldnt raise my hands because it insinuates that I want a fight.

 

[puunui]

If a guy comes at me with his hands up like he wants to swing, my hands are going up BEFORE he gets into punching range.

But if he doesn't do that, you keep your hands down right? If so, then that is exactly what competitors do in a taekwondo match.

 

[puunui]

My father is notorious in class for getting right outside punching range and throwing a lunging backfist. If your hands are down because he's outside punching range, then you are taking a shot to the head. If a 50 year old guy can move like that, a thug on the street can.

Thank you for making my point. Right outside of punching range is exactly where most people like to stand immediately before when they throw their head shots. But that is way inside of my kick range. Let's see how many lunging back fists your father throws after getting kicked in the leg a few times.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

But if he doesn't do that, you keep your hands down right? If so, then that is exactly what competitors do in a taekwondo match.

But surely going by that logic ufc fighters and boxers should fight with their hands by their sides if the opponent is outside of range, they may lower their guard slightly when out of range but they dont do what wtf sparrers do. Either way "going at it" with hands by your side cant possibly be compared to real life self defence.

 

[puunui]

But surely going by that logic ufc fighters and boxers should fight with their hands by their sides if the opponent is outside of range, they may lower their guard slightly when out of range but they dont do what wtf sparrers do. Either way "going at it" with hands by your side cant possibly be compared to real life self defence.

We do keep our hands down in MMA when outside, and they still can't come in and punch. They get all frustrated and mad getting their legs chopped, being unable to put their weight behind their punches because their front pivot foot is all trashed, and then they rush into grappling but not punching range. Again, it is much easier to demonstrate then discuss, because the thing that the self defense crowd can't comprehend with words is how distancing and steps and movement is much more effective at controlling head punches than keeping your hands up.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Again, you are assuming that your opponent gets inside your guard and is able to get within range to punch your face. I think that is a very big assumption.

You're assuming that your opponent getting inside your guard is impossible. I think that is a very big assumption. It may be unlikely, but a lot depends upon the opponent, how trained they may be, and what they may or may not be trained in.

Again it is easier and more believable to show in person than to discuss online. When I first opened my own dojang over twenty years ago, it was during an era where people would still come to "challenge" a new instructor. I would stand there with my arms at my sides and people (including students) would play what ifs with me, including what if your opponent punches you in the face. I can tell you that for the majority, once I started kicking them in the leg, their focus changed from punching me in the face to getting me to stop kicking their legs.

Sounds like you lacked any quality opponents.

In fact, the last time I got into a physical altercation, I was at a bar watching Monday Night Football. I was wearing business attire and I was sitting next to some local guy who was taller, bigger and younger than me wearing a lumberjack shirt, ripped jeans, and a baseball cap. Every time I would say something he would say some crap to put me down. After the first quarter, I told him that I was leaving now, but if he wanted to he could wait outside for me while I used the bathroom. When I left, he was waiting for me outside and tried his best to punch me in the face, I just did long off the line roundhouse to his leg or long padduh chagi to his leg. He kept coming and I just kept kicking his leg to the point where he was in tears. Finally I felt like enough was enough and so I faked to his leg, which drew both his hands down, and he lifted up his front leg, and I came over the top with a punch to his nose. But at the last minute, I pulled the punch and didn't follow through. He stood there with his broken bent nose, tears in his eyes, and yelled out "you broke my nose!". One drop of blood came out of one nostril, followed a few seconds later with a gush of blood all over his shirt. At this point, the security guard came, and asked me if he should call the police, to which I responded, "no need, I think our discussion is over."

Nice story. Glad it worked out for you. Again, doesn't sound like much of an opponent.

I can tell you numerous other similar stories from my own personal experience and the personal experiences of my students, both in or out of the ring.

I can tell some stories too. I simply choose not to.

You might be concerned about keeping your hands up because of face punches, but we aren't. you may believe that tournament fighting is different from self defense, but we don't. it's all the same to us.

Actually, you don't really know what I'm concerned with or what I may believe. All that I've said is that WTF competition rules do not take into account specific things, including those kicks to the leg you were bragging about, and that WTF sparring is different from the rest of the KKW curriculum. Thats it.

I will say that yes, tournament fighting is different from self defense, though that is not the same as saying that tournament fighters cannot defend themselves.

If anything, street fights are much easier because you are generally fighting someone who is not trained all that much (maybe some training) and they have a distinct disadvantage because they don't know what we are about. In tournaments, especially high level tournaments, your opponents have video of you, know you and your style, and are specifically training year around to beat you.

While some of what you say may be true, your outlook seems rather naive. The biggest concern with a street fight is not the level of training of the opponent, but the presence of 'buddies' or weapons, or both, which changes the dynamic substantially.

Daniel

 

[puunui]

You're assuming that your opponent getting inside your guard is impossible. I think that is a very big assumption. It may be unlikely, but a lot depends upon the opponent, how trained they may be, and what they may or may not be trained in.

No it is not impossible. Please read my previous posts.

Sounds like you lacked any quality opponents.

That's true. Most people cannot fight. The ones that do, generally aren't out there provoking fights with others who do. Or at least that has been my experience.

Nice story. Glad it worked out for you. Again, doesn't sound like much of an opponent.

See my last response.


I can tell some stories too. I simply choose not to.

Actually, you don't really know what I'm concerned with or what I may believe.

No, you've said several times that you are concerned about head punches.

All that I've said is that WTF competition rules do not take into account specific things, including those kicks to the leg you were bragging about, and that WTF sparring is different from the rest of the KKW curriculum. Thats it.

Not bragging about leg kicks, only demonstrating how leg kicks can and are effective in neutralizing head punches, which is most people's main offensive weapon.


I will say that yes, tournament fighting is different from self defense, though that is not the same as saying that tournament fighters cannot defend themselves.

While some of what you say may be true, your outlook seems rather naive. The biggest concern with a street fight is not the level of training of the opponent, but the presence of 'buddies' or weapons, or both, which changes the dynamic substantially.

That might be your biggest concern, but it isn't spelled out by empirical evidence. I can tell you at least in my area, most assaults are one vs. one, without weapons. Most assault arrests involve this situation.

This in fact is the primary focus of most self defense oriented training, including those one step sparring techniques. Sure many schools touch upon multiple attacker or weapon scenarios, but that isn't the main focus. Even in your hapkido training, are you primarily focused on weapon defenses and/or multiple attackers?

But don't take my word for it. Check out the works of people like Peyton Quinn and others who specialize in what he calls "Real Fighting". He wrote a series of books, based on his training and experience as a bouncer.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

No, you've said several times that you are concerned about head punches.

That is not specifically what I said. I stated numerous times that WTF competition does not address head punches and that that comprises a very large technical difference between the rest of Kukki Taekwondo and WTF competiton.

That might be your biggest concern, but it isn't spelled out by empirical evidence. I can tell you at least in my area, most assaults are one vs. one, without weapons. Most assault arrests involve this situation.

This in fact is the primary focus of most self defense oriented training, including those one step sparring techniques. Sure many schools touch upon multiple attacker or weapon scenarios, but that isn't the main focus. Even in your hapkido training, are you primarily focused on weapon defenses and/or multiple attackers?

But don't take my word for it. Check out the works of people like Peyton Quinn and others who specialize in what he calls "Real Fighting". He wrote a series of books, based on his training and experience as a bouncer.

You are answering a point that I did not make.

I never said that the biggest concern is armed attackers or multiple attackers. I said that my biggest concern is.

The unarmed attacker really doesn't 'concern' me. For one, I have the training and ability to deal with the unarmed guy.

For another, I am not the favored target of most unarmed criminals (male, over six feet, over 200lbs., under fifty, and look like I make less than forty grand a year) Most lone unarmed assailants will pick a target that looks like less of a hassle with greater return on their investment.

Finally, and more importantly, I tend to not frequent places where an unarmed attacker will be an issue, such as bars. I am careful about how I handle myself coming and going from buildings and with where I put my car. I am also fairly skilled in verbal deescalation and don't go out of my way to prove things to inconsequential people.

Daniel

 

[bluewaveschool]

That's true. Most people cannot fight. The ones that do, generally aren't out there provoking fights with others who do.

So I guess you are the exception to that rule?

 

[Archtkd]

Sure did. My dad was a boxer and drilled the "guard up" thing since as young as I can remember.

I'm sure you know there is a distinction between a boxer's "guard up" and a Taekwondo "guard up." In boxing, which I did for many years, you often can get away with planting your feet down, having hands in front of you and soaking up punishment from an opponent's barrage of gloved hands. In WTF taekwondo having a static "guard up" will get you broken hands. I know a master who routinely breaks baseball bats with the instep of a roundhouse kick. I'm not going to try to stop a kick from a guy like that too many times, with my hands.

 

[d1jinx]

"when done right, No can defense"

 

[terryl965]

Why can't we all just get along ( my mistake this is the TKD section nobody gets along):jediduel::stoplurk::argue::knight2::snipe2::wuguns::hb: