Are women disadvantaged in striking arts/styles?

[Hanzou]

I think part of the issue here is that the goal behind this and other similar styles is that you're essentially trading blows with someone. What if the person you're trading blows with is physically stronger than you are? This is where boxers tend to clinch in order to avoid getting hit too much. This is also where MMA fighters tend to go for takedowns if they're not able to stand toe to toe with who they're fighting against. It was never against the rules to clinch with someone or take them down in my karate class. We simply were never taught how to do it. It's probably the same case here.

Another issue that bothers me about this is that the women are turning their heads away as they punch. Essentially flinching while throwing punches and kicks. Am I the only one who recognizes how dangerous that is when you're trading blows with someone larger than you are?

 

[Hong Kong Pooey]

To you physicists arguing with your fancy equations over what determines how hard someone can hit I'm going to try and address it in layman's terms for the rest of us to undertand and you guys can tell me if/why I'm wrong...

As I understand it technique is the major factor at play, and it comes down to how quickly you can get your fist from where the punch begins to the target and how much of your weight/mass you can get behind it.

So if you take 2 guys of equal size and proportions and one has good technique and one doesn't, the guy with the good technique hits harder.

Conversely if you take 2 guys who are identical in every way including technique, then make one of them 50% larger, the larger one will hit harder.

If the above is correct, and I believe it is, then with regards to the OP this would put most women at a disadvantage because they have to get their technique to a higher level than most of the male opponents they are likely to face just to be able to hit as hard as them.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Apologies, I realise that I am really late in the day to join this discussion but reading through the incorrect application of Newton's second law to the 'power' in which a punch can generate has forced me to respond.

It is much more accurate to describe the power generated by a punch by the kinetic energy equation:

Kinetic Energy = 1/2 mass x velocity ^ 2

A good reference:

The science of punching harder: why is speed more important than mass? (And why having the force won't help you)

The problem with that is .... I never said power.... I said force and that is not power therefore it is not incorrect and the use of "Power" with Newton's 2nd law is incorrect. You really need to read through all my posts on that. and the formula for Kinetic energy is still not talking about power.

Power = Work / time [P = W / t]

Sorry, nope, not wrong...never applied Newton's second law to power, although it does play a part in coming up with the variables to calculate Power....read more carefully

 

[jks9199]

I am not changing newtons laws I am suggesting that it is not the only thing that applies. Punching power is not really measured in force apparently. And that changes the equation.

There's a lot more involved than simple force. Impact, work... I'm not enough of a physicist to break it all down, but you have to think about the deceleration of the fist on impact, how long the contact takes place (it takes the same amount of energy and work to move a car 40 feet -- but there's a world of difference in the effects if it's done in 1/10th of a second or 2 minutes!)... I know folks with the real educational background to do it have broken it down, and you can probably find it somewhere on the web.

 

[jks9199]

You did change Newton's second law when you used the terminology "speed" that is not acceleration. And you are now saying that "Punching power is not really measured in force apparently. And that changes the equation" so you are saying you are not changing Newton's second law but it changes...... nope sorry

bottom-line... that is what it is... I am sorry you do not like it, but that is scientific fact and you cannot change it..

So then...how is "Punching power" really measured....

I know how power is measured I am interested to know how "punching power" is measured though.....and it still does not change F=ma.... however there is more to it than that as it applies to power

How to measure punching power? That's a tough question. We can measure the force generated at impact, or the work down by the punch. We can look at the effects or damage caused. Or figure out how far the energy of the punch penetrated into the target. But there are things that are beyond the raw physics, by which I mean don't easily translate into those numbers. You're an internal stylist; I'm sure you've had the experience of someone hitting in a way that goes through you much more powerfully than the apparent force of the strike. (Not saying that effect is limited to internal, but it's where I've seen it the most.) I'm not saying someone couldn't take it apart and figure it out, just that when we start trying to measure "punching power", it's like "knockdown power" of a bullet. No easy way to do it...

 

[jks9199]

To you physicists arguing with your fancy equations over what determines how hard someone can hit I'm going to try and address it in layman's terms for the rest of us to undertand and you guys can tell me if/why I'm wrong...

As I understand it technique is the major factor at play, and it comes down to how quickly you can get your fist from where the punch begins to the target and how much of your weight/mass you can get behind it.

So if you take 2 guys of equal size and proportions and one has good technique and one doesn't, the guy with the good technique hits harder.

Conversely if you take 2 guys who are identical in every way including technique, then make one of them 50% larger, the larger one will hit harder.

If the above is correct, and I believe it is, then with regards to the OP this would put most women at a disadvantage because they have to get their technique to a higher level than most of the male opponents they are likely to face just to be able to hit as hard as them.

OK -- returning to the original topic after a digression to physics...

Women generally are smaller and weaker then men. Whether they are striking or grappling, they have to compensate for that with better and more effective technique, including things like targeting, more efficient recruitment of the body and muscles into the technique, timing, positioning...

I don't know that I'd say that a woman is inherently disadvantaged in a striking art. To say that would be to say that a smaller person, or someone weaker is inherently disadvantaged. At that point, the argue moves just as easily into grappling arts. They simply bring a different stack of benefits and weaknesses to the table.

 

[Brian King]

"Are women disadvantaged in striking arts/styles?"

Every advantage can become a disadvantage while every disadvantage can become an advantage depending on circumstances and circumstances can be manipulated.

All else being equal, size matters, but all else is never equal.

Regards
Brian King

 

[ballen0351]

That there is a huge difference in skill is beyond question. What is the question is what is behind that huge difference in skill. Is it purely martial training, or is it more natural abilities?

It's probably both. That wasn't your original question. You questioned strength and size not natural abilities. To me natural ability or natural athleticism has nothing to do with gender. Your just born that way. Some people are just better period regardless of size or strength and ability

When you test for black belt rank, you should be at least somewhat the skill level of the black belts in your school. Further, if this guy is some sort of phenom, I highly doubt that the testers would put these women up against him just to make them feel bad about their abilities. It's very possible that the black belt is a typical black belt at this school. The reason he looks so much more superior to these two women could be the very question of this thread; Are these women at a natural disadvantage?

No your thread was about size and strength. These woman were not out muscled they were out classed. Perhaps that was the point to let them get their butts kicked to see if they quit or had the heart to keep fighting and they did

 

[Xue Sheng]

OK -- returning to the original topic after a digression to physics...

Women generally are smaller and weaker then men. Whether they are striking or grappling, they have to compensate for that with better and more effective technique, including things like targeting, more efficient recruitment of the body and muscles into the technique, timing, positioning...

I don't know that I'd say that a woman is inherently disadvantaged in a striking art. To say that would be to say that a smaller person, or someone weaker is inherently disadvantaged. At that point, the argue moves just as easily into grappling arts. They simply bring a different stack of benefits and weaknesses to the table.

Exactly... that was my point with post #39... my wife is a little over 100 lbs. I have 100lbs on her easy and she is 10 inches shorter than me.... and can drop me like a sack of potatoes.....targeting is exactly what she is doing

 

[RTKDCMB]

Technique is needed as well but at some stage body mass plays a part. Gravity effects everybody equally.

Technique involves utilizing your body mass efficiently.

 

[WaterGal]

Why don't you believe it?

Whether or not you think he should have been that much more skilled than the ladies taking the test, he clearly was. He was not dominating the women with superior size and strength, He was dominating them with timing, distancing, footwork, head movement and obviously much more experience. (Not to mention he wasn't the one testing, so he wasn't already tired at this point.) If these ladies were TKD red belts testing for black, they may have had only 2-3 years experience, while the guy looks like he might easily have 10+ years experience. In BJJ terms, that's like a student testing for her blue belt and rolling with a black belt instructor. Gender doesn't have to enter into it.

Yeah, he's definitely more skilled than them at sparring. He's also taller, so he's got longer arms and legs, which does give him some advantage, and like you say he's not testing, so he's probably starting with more energy/stamina and a clearer head. That first woman looked really worn out.

I think saying "women have a disadvantage" is too simple a conclusion to draw from that video, or even life.

 

[Hanzou]

It's probably both. That wasn't your original question. You questioned strength and size not natural abilities. To me natural ability or natural athleticism has nothing to do with gender. Your just born that way. Some people are just better period regardless of size or strength and ability

Except men tend to be larger and stronger than women on average.

No your thread was about size and strength. These woman were not out muscled they were out classed. Perhaps that was the point to let them get their butts kicked to see if they quit or had the heart to keep fighting and they did

Except they are out muscled. The guy is taller than they are, and hitting them with a lot more power. His blows are doing more damage than their blows. Additionally, his height advantage gives him a better vantage point for targeting his opponent's weak point, causing even more damage.

His technical superiority probably arose because of those advantages, while those women's technical ability stayed the same because of their disadvantages. You can see it via their reactions to his striking. I repeat, there shouldn't be that large a gap in technical ability between two black belts at the same school. Granted, you're going to have a black belt who is better than another black belt, but the disparity in ability shown here is far larger than that.

But hey, I'm sure their katas are fantastic.

 

[drop bear]

Except men tend to be larger and stronger than women on average.



Except they are out muscled. The guy is taller than they are, and hitting them with a lot more power. His blows are doing more damage than their blows. Additionally, his height advantage gives him a better vantage point for targeting his opponent's weak point, causing even more damage.

His technical superiority probably arose because of those advantages, while those women's technical ability stayed the same because of their disadvantages. You can see it via their reactions to his striking. I repeat, there shouldn't be that large a gap in technical ability between two black belts at the same school. Granted, you're going to have a black belt who is better than another black belt, but the disparity in ability shown here is far larger than that.

But hey, I'm sure their katas are fantastic.

You have black belts that are better than other black belts. Some people train harder or are more naturally gifted. Some are bigger. Some have been training longer.

That wrestling I showed the guy getting manhandled by a wrestler that could not be bothered to take his hands off his knees was Adrian pang.
Adrian "The Hunter" Pang MMA Stats, Pictures, News, Videos, Biography - Sherdog.com

The guy is no slouch.

So why don't you think there can be big differences in a black belts abilities?

 

[drop bear]

That there is a huge difference in skill is beyond question. What is the question is what is behind that huge difference in skill. Is it purely martial training, or is it more natural abilities?

When you test for black belt rank, you should be at least somewhat the skill level of the black belts in your school. Further, if this guy is some sort of phenom, I highly doubt that the testers would put these women up against him just to make them feel bad about their abilities. It's very possible that the black belt is a typical black belt at this school. The reason he looks so much more superior to these two women could be the very question of this thread; Are these women at a natural disadvantage?

No.

You test against the gun fighter of your school to test them.to grade you don't necessarily have to mash everybody in the room. Have you trained in a competition or fight gym?

There are guys who come through that are serious business. Well above the standard of the class.

Like that Kudo grading I mentioned. They were never going to beat the pro mmaers who are competing with the best in Australia. And now in Japan competing with the best in the world.

An average black belt won't be at that level ever.

 

[Dinkydoo]

The problem with that is .... I never said power.... I said force and that is not power therefore it is not incorrect and the use of "Power" with Newton's 2nd law is incorrect. You really need to read through all my posts on that. and the formula for Kinetic energy is still not talking about power.

Power = Work / time [P = W / t]

Sorry, nope, not wrong...never applied Newton's second law to power, although it does play a part in coming up with the variables to calculate Power....read more carefully

No, but you were using the force equation to explain how hard someone can hit and therefore implying that the dependants of that force equation are indeed the dependants of 'punching power' too. How hard someone can hit is what generally martial artists refer to as 'power'. I havent ever done physics and whenever I need to apply an equation to a piece of code I'm writing I look it up, so we're in danger of going a bit above my head here however I still think its more appropriate to apply the kinetic energy equation when talking about 'punching power' because it takes into account the energy required to move the striking instrument - which is actually quite important. You might be more clued up on the low level details but I'm going to have to insist that how hard one strikes is more complicated than Newtons 2nd Law.

Edit: it looks like that is what you were getting at, from your latest post. Sorry, it seemed like you were over simplifying things from the initial comments in this digression.

 

[RTKDCMB]

I can't say I had the same experience with karate and TKD though. My experience is very similar to Hussaf's in that I could out-strike more advanced female (and smaller male) peers even at beginning rank.

Are you sure that's what actually happened? When sparring students of limited experience more advanced students will take it easy on them, maybe let them get a few shots through their defences every now and then to build their confidence and give them a chance to get the targets they are aiming for. A beginning student might not necessarily recognize that is happening.

 

[Tez3]

A small point, in the OP it says that it's TKD then later on Hanzou says it's Tang Soo Do. Two different styles.

A big point. Why should women bother training martial arts? All this women are smaller, weaker and all round more useless than men so why the hell should we even think we can do martial arts? women can't punch hard enough, are too weak to lift their own body weight, too small to stand up to men. Yep thanks for the vote of confidence guys, nothing like pointing out all the flaws for making women feel it's worth their while training. yeah, I know it's all just facts but really talk about sounding superior.

And the only 'good news' is that BJJ is a bit better for women...........................

 

[Cirdan]

A big point. Why should women bother training martial arts? All this women are smaller, weaker and all round more useless than men so why the hell should we even think we can do martial arts? women can't punch hard enough, are too weak to lift their own body weight, too small to stand up to men. Yep thanks for the vote of confidence guys, nothing like pointing out all the flaws for making women feel it's worth their while training. yeah, I know it's all just facts but really talk about sounding superior.

And the only 'good news' is that BJJ is a bit better for women...........................

Yes we should all stay in the couch munching cheesy poofs because unless we can out muscle Bobb Sapp any training we do won`t be worth squat.

Actually I find a lot of women around blue and brown belt are technically better than men. Likely that is in part because they will be paired with bigger male partners in the dojo much of the time. A woman can have an advantage, wow!

 

[Tez3]

I don't have to punch hard to make a liver shot drop you. :moon:

 

[Hanzou]

So why don't you think there can be big differences in a black belts abilities?

How big are we talking? The problem is that the guy looked like what you expect a black belt to look like. The women did not.