Are women disadvantaged in striking arts/styles?

[ballen0351]

Their names are in the description.



Cross reference their instructor's names (in the comment section) with style (TSD). Google is your friend (or stalker :ticked



I can get a lot of that information from the video provided.

Nonsense Like I said you still have no idea the context of what happened before. If thats proof for you well good luck

 

[Hanzou]

Nonsense Like I said you still have no idea the context of what happened before. If thats proof for you well good luck

The women are red belts and they are testing for their black belts in TSD. Again, the person who posted the vid is one of the women in the video, and she describes her background in her art, and who she is sparring against. Furthermore, we have people in the background of the vid clearly grading her and the other girl in a backdrop that heavily resembles a school that teaches Korean martial arts.

What more context are you looking for?

The POINT in posting that vid was to show the large disadvantage both women had sparring against the man. While the man is of superior rank, I don't believe that difference in skill from BOTH ladies should have been that large. As someone else stated, if they were really going at it, that guy probably could have demolished both women at the same time. The comments in that video bear that out. I'm personally surprised the poster of that video has taken the video down based on the negative reaction it generated.

 

[jks9199]

F=ma is a good start but... No more complicated? I'm no physicist, but I think it is. Although "force is force", impact or the transfer of force is a good deal more complicated. The target you hit is very important, and especially the degree of softness or flexibility of that target will affect the rate of deceleration of the punch, and so will affect the impact. Other factors such as how you release the power, how small is the contact area ( a palm, three knuckles, or two, or one, etc.) and a bunch of other factors come into play.

Impact Force


Xue, you and I have spent a lot of time in CMA. Now I don't know about you, but personally, I'm nowhere near figuring out everything about punching power.

It's much more complicated, as a few posts have shown. In fact, I seem to recall a thread (maybe this one?) about that a few years ago, maybe pstarr figured into it. I know he wrote a book about the mechanics of the martial arts.

 

[ballen0351]

The women are red belts and they are testing for their black belts in TSD. Again, the person who posted the vid is one of the women in the video, and she describes her background in her art, and who she is sparring against.

The POINT in posting that vid was to show the large disadvantage both women had sparring against the man. While the man is of superior rank, I don't believe that difference in skill from BOTH ladies should have been that large. As someone else stated, if they were really going at it, that guy probably could have demolished both women at the same time. The comments in that video bear that out. I'm personally surprised the poster of that video has taken the video down based on the negative reaction it generated.

So if the point was to talk about sparring why do you keep bringing up grapping?

 

[Hanzou]

So if the point was to talk about sparring why do you keep bringing up grapping?

Look at the title of the thread. That's the point.

 

[Stac3y]

I have a question for everyone.....

Where you train - when it's time for sparring/rolling, are people matched up by size? By gender? By ability? I know everyone eventually spars/rolls with everyone else, but I mean in a general "usually" sense?

Nope. We all fight each other. Bigger, stronger, more skilled fighters control their level of contact with the little guys (children, that is). In my experience, I fare well against men of similar size and rank. Bigger guys can be a problem with reach. We don't fight full contact, though.

 

[Stac3y]

One of the women I regularly fight in competition sparring is 6 inches taller than me and outweighs me by about 60 pounds. In karate sparring competition, there are HUGE size discrepancies among competitors, especially in women's divisions, which have fewer weight classes--usually just fly & light, or light and middle.

 

[drop bear]

The women are red belts and they are testing for their black belts in TSD. Again, the person who posted the vid is one of the women in the video, and she describes her background in her art, and who she is sparring against. Furthermore, we have people in the background of the vid clearly grading her and the other girl in a backdrop that heavily resembles a school that teaches Korean martial arts.

What more context are you looking for?

The POINT in posting that vid was to show the large disadvantage both women had sparring against the man. While the man is of superior rank, I don't believe that difference in skill from BOTH ladies should have been that large. As someone else stated, if they were really going at it, that guy probably could have demolished both women at the same time. The comments in that video bear that out. I'm personally surprised the poster of that video has taken the video down based on the negative reaction it generated.

The second wrestle where the guy has his hands on his knees just waiting there. Sometimes the difference in skill is that large.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ogrcvjVPOOs

 

[Xue Sheng]

So if I punch with one foot off the ground but at the same speed and mass I will hit as hard as if I had both feet on the ground.

Nope, you are using speed and that is not the same as acceleration so your premise is just plain wrong.

You are trying to change the equation to look right and you are not right. The equation is "Force equals Mass time Acceleration (F=ma)". It does not matter one foot or two foot on the ground same mass, same acceleration same force, anything you post that says that is not the truth is incredibly faulty physics or in other words, just plain wrong. Try as you might you cannot change Newton's Second law and you are always subject to the laws of physics..... next

 

[Tony Dismukes]

If the fact we were not a stick meant that we were beyond the laws of physics then you might be right...but we are not beyond the laws of physics. That my friend is basic physics and it applies no matter how much you may, or may not, like it...sorry that is scientific fact F = ma... and it is no more complicated than that.

People writing books or articles about martial arts sometimes include equations like F = MA and KE = 1/2MV^2 in an attempt to put a scientific gloss on what they are saying. Once you are beyond high-school physics with equations built around point masses it gets quite a bit more complicated.

For example ...

Which of the above equations is more relevant to striking? A bullet can carry a lethal dose of kinetic energy (Kinetic Energy = 1/2MV^2) but apply relatively little total force to a target. A powerful shove may apply a strong force to a target, but do little actual damage. On the other hand, most knockouts come from rapid acceleration of the skull causing trauma to the brain, so force is relevant somehow.

Kinetic Energy = 1/2 Mass x Velocity x Velocity. Once you are no longer dealing with abstracted point masses you have to ask what mass, what velocity? Suppose you have a 60 kg boxer throwing a punch and you use a high-speed camera to find out that his fist is travelling 22 meters/sec. Does that mean his punch is carrying 14520 joules of kinetic energy? Nope. His fist may be moving at 22 meters/sec, but it doesn't mass 60 kg by itself. His shoulder might only be moving 5 meters per sec. His hip might only be moving 3 meters/sec. Just calculating the mass & velocity of each body part gets to be a nearly intractable task.

It doesn't stop there, though. Velocity isn't just speed, it contains a directional component. Not all those body parts are travelling in the same direction, so you can't just sum their kinetic energies and think that total KE will apply to the impact of the punch.

Now how do you account for the situation where two fighters have the same mass and punch about the same speed, yet one hits much harder than the other? Now we're getting into technique. The one fighter has learned to coordinate his/her body movement and align his/her structure in such a way that more of his/her mass feeds into the impact and transfers into the target. This affects both force and kinetic energy, yet we don't have a convenient equation to easily analyze it.

 

[drop bear]

Nope, you are using speed and that is not the same as acceleration so your premise is just plain wrong.

You are trying to change the equation to look right and you are not right. The equation is "Force equals Mass time Acceleration (F=ma)". It does not matter one foot or two foot on the ground same mass, same acceleration same force, anything you post that says that is not the truth is incredibly faulty physics or in other words, just plain wrong. Try as you might you cannot change Newton's Second law and you are always subject to the laws of physics..... next

I am not changing newtons laws I am suggesting that it is not the only thing that applies. Punching power is not really measured in force apparently. And that changes the equation.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

The POINT in posting that vid was to show the large disadvantage both women had sparring against the man. While the man is of superior rank, I don't believe that difference in skill from BOTH ladies should have been that large.

Why don't you believe it?

Whether or not you think he should have been that much more skilled than the ladies taking the test, he clearly was. He was not dominating the women with superior size and strength, He was dominating them with timing, distancing, footwork, head movement and obviously much more experience. (Not to mention he wasn't the one testing, so he wasn't already tired at this point.) If these ladies were TKD red belts testing for black, they may have had only 2-3 years experience, while the guy looks like he might easily have 10+ years experience. In BJJ terms, that's like a student testing for her blue belt and rolling with a black belt instructor. Gender doesn't have to enter into it.

 

[Xue Sheng]

People writing books or articles about martial arts sometimes include equations like F = MA and KE = 1/2MV^2 in an attempt to put a scientific gloss on what they are saying. Once you are beyond high-school physics with equations built around point masses it gets quite a bit more complicated.

For example ...

Which of the above equations is more relevant to striking? A bullet can carry a lethal dose of kinetic energy (Kinetic Energy = 1/2MV^2) but apply relatively little total force to a target. A powerful shove may apply a strong force to a target, but do little actual damage. On the other hand, most knockouts come from rapid acceleration of the skull causing trauma to the brain, so force is relevant somehow.

Kinetic Energy = 1/2 Mass x Velocity x Velocity. Once you are no longer dealing with abstracted point masses you have to ask what mass, what velocity? Suppose you have a 60 kg boxer throwing a punch and you use a high-speed camera to find out that his fist is travelling 22 meters/sec. Does that mean his punch is carrying 14520 joules of kinetic energy? Nope. His fist may be moving at 22 meters/sec, but it doesn't mass 60 kg by itself. His shoulder might only be moving 5 meters per sec. His hip might only be moving 3 meters/sec. Just calculating the mass & velocity of each body part gets to be a nearly intractable task.

It doesn't stop there, though. Velocity isn't just speed, it contains a directional component. Not all those body parts are travelling in the same direction, so you can't just sum their kinetic energies and think that total KE will apply to the impact of the punch.

Now how do you account for the situation where two fighters have the same mass and punch about the same speed, yet one hits much harder than the other? Now we're getting into technique. The one fighter has learned to coordinate his/her body movement and align his/her structure in such a way that more of his/her mass feeds into the impact and transfers into the target. This affects both force and kinetic energy, yet we don't have a convenient equation to easily analyze it.

kinetic as opposed to potential energy are nice and all but they do not change F = ma, sorry they just don't. You are flipping terms that are not the same in order to make your case and it still does not change the equation F = ma velocity, speed and acceleration are not the same thing... I am drawing form way back in college physics but no matter how any of you put it F = ma is F = ma and it will not change and if a fighter of less mass has greater acceleration they can hit harder than a fighter of greater mass with less acceleration....nothing...absolutely nothing any of you are saying changes that. Sorry.... Newton's second law applies no matter what anyone says

Speed is the distance traveled divided by the time taken to travel the distance

Velocity is a measure of the displacement of an object divided by the time it took to travel that distance.Which means Velocity is a vector quantity the rate at which an object changes its position.And that is not speed.

Now Acceleration is defined as the rate of change (or derivative with respect to time) of velocity. It is thus a vector quantity with dimension length/time².

mass is the property of matter that measures its resistance to acceleration. Roughly, the mass of an object is a measure of the number of atoms in it.

which means none of what you are talking about changes the equation F = ma

What you are looking at are those things that effect acceleration… go there and you might have an argument but the fact is two fighters of different mass can hit equally as hard because of F=ma or one of less mass can hit harder because of F=ma

Now we are rapidly approaching the point of your other post "Some thoughts about discussing the martial arts" accept this is physics and it is not as subjective as martial arts discussions, opinion does not enter into it at all and there is no place for semantics…sorry F = ma is F = ma and that will not change….

I am not changing newtons laws I am suggesting that it is not the only thing that applies. Punching power is not really measured in force apparently. And that changes the equation.

You did change Newton's second law when you used the terminology "speed" that is not acceleration. And you are now saying that "Punching power is not really measured in force apparently. And that changes the equation" so you are saying you are not changing Newton's second law but it changes...... nope sorry

bottom-line... that is what it is... I am sorry you do not like it, but that is scientific fact and you cannot change it..

So then...how is "Punching power" really measured....

I know how power is measured I am interested to know how "punching power" is measured though.....and it still does not change F=ma.... however there is more to it than that as it applies to power

 

[Xue Sheng]

ok, here.... I'll tell you

You need calculate the work

Work results when a force acts upon an object to cause a displacement (or a motion) or, in some instances, to hinder a motion.

note displacement in this equation is not distance

Work = Force • Displacement • Cosine(theta) [W = F • d • cos(theta)]

But you’re not at power yet

Power is defined as the rate at which work is done upon an object.

Power = Work / time [P = W / t]


And now I am pushing the limits of my college physics memory, even with the help of the internet, but if you have a greater force you can show greater work and if you show greater work you can have greater power..... So you are still at a smaller opponent can hit as hard or harder than a larger opponent.... now is that the norm....likely not..... Bruce lee was small and hit hard and that was from acceleration.... could a woman do it to...hell yeah.... but there are physical factors that will come into play.... and if the mass is too small, or there is too much difference in mass (90lbs vs 250lbs) is there any amount of acceleration (based in reality and musculoskeletal limitations) that can make up for it..... You will need to do that math on that… I’m done

 

[Hanzou]

Why don't you believe it?

Whether or not you think he should have been that much more skilled than the ladies taking the test, he clearly was. He was not dominating the women with superior size and strength, He was dominating them with timing, distancing, footwork, head movement and obviously much more experience. (Not to mention he wasn't the one testing, so he wasn't already tired at this point.) If these ladies were TKD red belts testing for black, they may have had only 2-3 years experience, while the guy looks like he might easily have 10+ years experience. In BJJ terms, that's like a student testing for her blue belt and rolling with a black belt instructor. Gender doesn't have to enter into it.

Well, he was a first stripe black, which is the belt they were going for. So I seriously doubt the experience discrepancy was that large. So in Bjj terms, it's like a 4 stripe brown going against a black belt.

 

[Tez3]

Technique is needed as well but at some stage body mass plays a part. Gravity effects everybody equally.

that's not what you said before though, you said you just needed body mass.

 

[ballen0351]

Well, he was a first stripe black, which is the belt they were going for. So I seriously doubt the experience discrepancy was that large. So in Bjj terms, it's like a 4 stripe brown going against a black belt.

Or he chooses not to test. And just trains and doesn't care about rank. Or he has several years in another art. If you can't see there was a huge difference in skill lvl I question your claims of over a decade in martial arts training

 

[Hanzou]

Or he chooses not to test. And just trains and doesn't care about rank. Or he has several years in another art. If you can't see there was a huge difference in skill lvl I question your claims of over a decade in martial arts training

That there is a huge difference in skill is beyond question. What is the question is what is behind that huge difference in skill. Is it purely martial training, or is it more natural abilities?

When you test for black belt rank, you should be at least somewhat the skill level of the black belts in your school. Further, if this guy is some sort of phenom, I highly doubt that the testers would put these women up against him just to make them feel bad about their abilities. It's very possible that the black belt is a typical black belt at this school. The reason he looks so much more superior to these two women could be the very question of this thread; Are these women at a natural disadvantage?

 

[Dinkydoo]

Apologies, I realise that I am really late in the day to join this discussion but reading through the incorrect application of Newton's second law to the 'power' in which a punch can generate has forced me to respond.

It is much more accurate to describe the power generated by a punch by the kinetic energy equation:

Kinetic Energy = 1/2 mass x velocity ^ 2

A good reference:

http://www.martiallife.com/index.ph...er-why-is-speed-more-important-than-mass.html

 

[Hong Kong Pooey]

That there is a huge difference in skill is beyond question. What is the question is what is behind that huge difference in skill. Is it purely martial training, or is it more natural abilities?

When you test for black belt rank, you should be at least somewhat the skill level of the black belts in your school. Further, if this guy is some sort of phenom, I highly doubt that the testers would put these women up against him just to make them feel bad about their abilities. It's very possible that the black belt is a typical black belt at this school. The reason he looks so much more superior to these two women could be the very question of this thread; Are these women at a natural disadvantage?

Good thread!

I can't really add too much to it, just re-iterate what's already been said by others but I'll try and sum up the points I agree with.

In general yes, women do have a disadvantage due to being smaller and weaker, but that applies to any competitive art, not just striking based ones. But the same also applies to male vs male matches, that's why they have weight divisions. Boxing being the obvious example.

And again in general, a man will be stronger than a women of equal size and weight.

So if you are at a physical disadvantage then you need to be superior in other areas to overcome it, be it speed, technique, cunning, heart, ruthlessness, whatever.

I'd also suggest that when you're sparring/competing/fighting in the same style with whatever rules are in place then any physical advantage is potentially greater than in a real fight, or to put it another way, it removes a lot of 'dirty tricks' the smaller person may wish to employ to get around that disadvantage.

Obviously there are exceptions and some women are stronger than some men, but the strongest man is stronger than the strongest woman, and overall men's average size and strength is greater than women's average size and strength.