Are women disadvantaged in striking arts/styles?

[hussaf]

Inherent can come apart a bit at the seams.
Nature vs nurture.

So nature. And bear in mind we are talking averages not individuals.

Men can pack more bulk muscle on than women so if we are talking out right body mass then generally Guys have it.

Functional strength is a bit more blurred in that women seem to manage bodyweight a bit closer to the men's average.

Nurture

Women have been pushed towards craptastic aerobics a lot longer and a lot harder than men. Functional muscle takes years to develop so are generally behind the 8 ball a bit when it comes to fighting and physicality.

Like asking Richard Simmons to jump in the ring.

that's not what really nature vs nurture references, but it think I get the point you want to make

I don't think I can accept that women can "manage?" their body weight better than guys, if you mean to suggest strength to weight ratio. The average female can't lift , via push or pull, their own weight.

 

[Buka]

A man has more muscle mass in the chest and shoulders, which comes into play with the transference of power from the legs and hips in punching. And men are usually larger overall, which also comes into play. So, as a general rule, I'd say men have the advantage. But that's in a general sense, there are exceptions.

I've trained with Linda Denley and Arlene Lamas (we were team mates) and both are beasts when it comes to fighting, both punching and kicking wise. I don't care who they fight, it's going to be a fight. I'm married to a woman who punches as hard as anyone I know, especially with a left hook and right cross (more of an overhand right, actually) In that clip shown I feel the guy was dropping his hands because he was a dick. He might do that once against my wife, but I can almost guarantee he wouldn't do it a second time. Fighters go to sleep dreaming about people who drop their hands.

As for grappling - I think everyone should have the experience of grappling with an advanced female in a grappling art. It's one of the ways to truly appreciate what a a martial art can actually be.

 

[ballen0351]

Im not sure how this youtube clip showcases any strength advantage? It certainly demonstrates a difference in skill level the male was clearly had better TKD. But to say it shows Size and strength advantage not so much since neither the male or female were going full power. Is there a difference between men and woman of course. Better technique can and does make up some for a lack of size and strength. At some point however the strength difference can overcome better technique no matter what art striking or grappling.

 

[ballen0351]

In that clip shown I feel the guy was dropping his hands because he was a dick. .

I agree he was being very disrespectful and his teacher should have lined up next and put him in his place

 

[Hanzou]

So basically this is a stand up v grappling argument....again. Women can't fight stand up because men are too strong/big/just naturally better but in grappling women have more weapons so stand up yet again is found wanting..................... :uhoh:

Small person has more weapons in grappling. Example;

 

[drop bear]

that's not what really nature vs nurture references, but it think I get the point you want to make

I don't think I can accept that women can "manage?" their body weight better than guys, if you mean to suggest strength to weight ratio. The average female can't lift , via push or pull, their own weight.

It is not about better. We have to remember that we are talking about averages. So on average men are stronger than women. But we are also covering this huge variable when we look at the strongest guy,the weakest guy vs the strongest girl,the weakest girl.

This is also about gradings and not competitions.

Otherwise a woman who has trained to push/pull their own weight can.

 

[Cirdan]

Who are these mythical averagerages.. this couple maybe? I honestly don`t know which one to bet on.

 

[drop bear]

Who are these mythical averagerages.. this couple maybe? I honestly don`t know which one to bet on.

Marge would beat homer to death.

It is fairly generally accepted guys are stronger than girls.

Studies done?

No idea.

Here we go.
http://www.livestrong.com/article/246036-how-much-more-muscle-mass-does-a-male-have-than-a-female/

 

[Tez3]

Small person has more weapons in grappling. Example;

So you posted the OP to make the point yet again the BJJ is better than stand up arts. And more videos. Are you on commission with You Tube?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Small person has more weapons in grappling. Example;

For those who are interested, the little guy is Estevan Martinez, 4'11", 125 pounds out of Clube De Jiu Jitsu Pitbull, Albuquerque, New Mexico. He's also overdue for a promotion in my opinion.

The reason that footage of Mr. Martinez's matches has been making the rounds is that it is so unusual, even in BJJ, to see someone be so dominant against much larger opponents of comparable experience. Mr. Martinez exemplifies the advice I gave earlier - if you are much smaller then you need to make all the other factors not equal in your favor.

I still say that overcoming vastly superior size and strength can be just as challenging in grappling as in striking. I do have some theories as to why Hanzou may have found it less of an issue in BJJ than in Karate ...

1) In order to develop the necessary skill to overcome much larger and stronger opponents, you need to spend the long, hard, painful, discouraging hours actually training live against larger, stronger resisting opponents and generally getting crushed until you develop the skill necessary to counter the size disadvantage. In a striking art, this process can be even more painful, since it involves getting actually beat on by someone bigger. This means you are likely to find fewer women maintaining the course through the process. (It can be done. I know for a fact that I don't hit as hard as Lucia Rijker.)

2) BJJ takes advantage of the fact that most people don't have good instincts for how to handle themselves on the ground. That means big, strong white belts can often be schooled by much smaller blue belts in the beginning. Once they learn the basics of how not to do stupid stuff on the ground, the big guys become much more challenging to deal with. An average 125 pound purple belt is not at all guaranteed to have an easy time with a 225 pound athletic blue belt. We repost videos of guys like Mr. Martinez because he's remarkable, not because he's typical.

 

[ballen0351]

For those who are interested, the little guy is Estevan Martinez, 4'11", 125 pounds out of Clube De Jiu Jitsu Pitbull, Albuquerque, New Mexico. He's also overdue for a promotion in my opinion.

The reason that footage of Mr. Martinez's matches has been making the rounds is that it is so unusual, even in BJJ, to see someone be so dominant against much larger opponents of comparable experience. Mr. Martinez exemplifies the advice I gave earlier - if you are much smaller then you need to make all the other factors not equal in your favor.

I still say that overcoming vastly superior size and strength can be just as challenging in grappling as in striking. I do have some theories as to why Hanzou may have found it less of an issue in BJJ than in Karate ...

1) In order to develop the necessary skill to overcome much larger and stronger opponents, you need to spend the long, hard, painful, discouraging hours actually training live against larger, stronger resisting opponents and generally getting crushed until you develop the skill necessary to counter the size disadvantage. In a striking art, this process can be even more painful, since it involves getting actually beat on by someone bigger. This means you are likely to find fewer women maintaining the course through the process. (It can be done. I know for a fact that I don't hit as hard as Lucia Rijker.)

2) BJJ takes advantage of the fact that most people don't have good instincts for how to handle themselves on the ground. That means big, strong white belts can often be schooled by much smaller blue belts in the beginning. Once they learn the basics of how not to do stupid stuff on the ground, the big guys become much more challenging to deal with. An average 125 pound purple belt is not at all guaranteed to have an easy time with a 225 pound athletic blue belt. We repost videos of guys like Mr. Martinez because he's remarkable, not because he's typical.

which is great but his topic was about woman in striking arts. That video contains neither a woman or a striking art so.........

 

[drop bear]

So you posted the OP to make the point yet again the BJJ is better than stand up arts. And more videos. Are you on commission with You Tube?

Why is he wrong?

Really. I am not messing with you. Counter argue.

 

[drop bear]

For those who are interested, the little guy is Estevan Martinez, 4'11", 125 pounds out of Clube De Jiu Jitsu Pitbull, Albuquerque, New Mexico. He's also overdue for a promotion in my opinion.

The reason that footage of Mr. Martinez's matches has been making the rounds is that it is so unusual, even in BJJ, to see someone be so dominant against much larger opponents of comparable experience. Mr. Martinez exemplifies the advice I gave earlier - if you are much smaller then you need to make all the other factors not equal in your favor.

I still say that overcoming vastly superior size and strength can be just as challenging in grappling as in striking. I do have some theories as to why Hanzou may have found it less of an issue in BJJ than in Karate ...

1) In order to develop the necessary skill to overcome much larger and stronger opponents, you need to spend the long, hard, painful, discouraging hours actually training live against larger, stronger resisting opponents and generally getting crushed until you develop the skill necessary to counter the size disadvantage. In a striking art, this process can be even more painful, since it involves getting actually beat on by someone bigger. This means you are likely to find fewer women maintaining the course through the process. (It can be done. I know for a fact that I don't hit as hard as Lucia Rijker.)

2) BJJ takes advantage of the fact that most people don't have good instincts for how to handle themselves on the ground. That means big, strong white belts can often be schooled by much smaller blue belts in the beginning. Once they learn the basics of how not to do stupid stuff on the ground, the big guys become much more challenging to deal with. An average 125 pound purple belt is not at all guaranteed to have an easy time with a 225 pound athletic blue belt. We repost videos of guys like Mr. Martinez because he's remarkable, not because he's typical.

I have struggled to find a comparable striker. I was going in with the idea that a gun fighter is a gun fighter regardless of style. Haven't really found an example.

Having said that striking styles are less likely to match people up like that.

 

[Buka]

To me - I think Tony and Hanzou were continuing the conversation about women (basically being smaller then men) against larger sized fighters being equally difficult in all aspects of fighting. I also think it's a natural continuation in the conversation that small men sometimes face the same dilemma. I'm a small man, have weighed 142 pounds since fourteen years old. Although my strength is usually superior to women of the same weight, it's not always.

When I read the OP, after I gave it some thought, I then thought, "I know how that is."
To me, one of the more obvious differences between men and women is in take downs. I think the average male creates far more power in a take down than the average female. Then I watch Ronda Rousey and I say, "Holy cow!" (I say that from the safety of hiding behind the couch.)

 

[Tez3]

Why is he wrong?

Really. I am not messing with you. Counter argue.

I'm not saying that women aren't given more weapons to use in BJJ, I'm saying that the whole idea of the OP was to 'point out' to us yet again that he considers striking arts inferior to BJJ. I'm not saying it's style bashing I'm saying it's tiresome.
I train BJJ, I train stand up, there's merits in both, disadvantages in both for all sorts of people but, really, posting an OP so that you can look how good BJJ over other styles is just getting boring.
I know men who can't punch their way out of a wet paper bag, I know women who can KO an ox but its all about the individual. Martial arts gives you the tools, it's up to you how you use them and nobody says that you have to play fair, I never do when sparring with people bigger/stronger than myself but I use what martial arts taught me. If you like point sparring comps that's great, if you have to actually fight well anything goes. I have observed though that in certain TKD sparring the hands are down most of the time with mostly kicks being utilised. In many comps I don't think a hand strike is ever used.
Oh and the lifting weights thing, I know several women including my daughter who can lift their own weight.

 

[drop bear]

To me - I think Tony and Hanzou were continuing the conversation about women (basically being smaller then men) against larger sized fighters being equally difficult in all aspects of fighting. I also think it's a natural continuation in the conversation that small men sometimes face the same dilemma. I'm a small man, have weighed 142 pounds since fourteen years old. Although my strength is usually superior to women of the same weight, it's not always.

When I read the OP, after I gave it some thought, I then thought, "I know how that is."
To me, one of the more obvious differences between men and women is in take downs. I think the average male creates far more power in a take down than the average female. Then I watch Ronda Rousey and I say, "Holy cow!" (I say that from the safety of hiding behind the couch.)

A small person can throw a guy and if they get them they are hitting the ground at pretty much the same speed as if somone big threw them. Punching power relies on mass.

Then again you eat something big like a spinning heel and even a small person will knock you.

 

[Tez3]

So no techniques needed to punch just body mass?

 

[Buka]

I have a question for everyone.....

Where you train - when it's time for sparring/rolling, are people matched up by size? By gender? By ability? I know everyone eventually spars/rolls with everyone else, but I mean in a general "usually" sense?

 

[Xue Sheng]

This video was very interesting to me. It shows women going for their black belt test in Taekwondo and having to spar against a male black belt.

What struck me more than anything else is how the man's size and strength advantage completely dominated the women's abilities. Certainly he was a high rank, but the fact that their were parts where he literally dropped his hands showcased just how little fear he had against his female classmates. So this leads me to propose this question;

Are women inherently disadvantaged in striking styles against their male peers?

Real late to this conversation and it is likely I will not have much to say beyond this, but it depends on the style or technique being used. Mrs Xue Sheng is not a martial artist but she has extensive training in Traditional Chinese Medicine and can look at anyone and tell exactly where any points are she needs to use for her profession. She also knows many (not all, some, in China, are reserved for MA) that will cause you great deals of pain and they do not take a whole lot of strength to use..... And yes, I know from experience...I was the guy dumb enough to ask about that and then ask for proof....:erg: :duh:

 

[Tony Dismukes]

which is great but his topic was about woman in striking arts. That video contains neither a woman or a striking art so.........

The primary basis for arguing that women are at a disadvantage compared to men is the average discrepancy in size and strength. The video did demonstrate a substantial size discrepancy. (If Hanzou had looked a little further he could have found another video from later in that same tournament where Mr. Martinez defeated an even larger opponent who had to be at least 250 pounds.)

The video did not address the topic of striking arts. I believe it was meant as a response to folks like me who pointed out that size and strength make a difference in grappling as well as striking.