Why do people think grappling arts always beat striking arts?

[Kung Fu Wang]

Not really. You are creating a frame. So it is a bit different.

You are talking about ground game. I'm talking about stand up game.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The mystery of this hidden, within the kata,

I don't like those hidden information. The reason that you create a form is to pass your information down to the next generation so your information will not be lost. To hide information in your form is against your goal.

 

[Unkogami]

I don't like that crazy monkey close guard. If my opponent wraps my head along with my arms, I will be in trouble.

View attachment 27223

The uke there would have lots of options if not being compliant.

 

[seasoned]

Then what is the point?

You could just learn grappling pretty much anywhere and not have to wait for black.

And then when you do have your black and everyone is learning the mysteries of grappling. You would have years of practical experience under your belt and basically smoke the whole room.

It appears I may have gotten a bit to deep in the understanding of an art like Okinawan GoJu that has stood the passing of time....so, I'll just leave it at this, "have a nice day"....

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The uke there would have lots of options if not being compliant.

If I move my arms closer to my head, I'll give my opponent more room. It will not be to my advantage.

I want to squeeze my opponent's space. I don't want my opponent to squeeze my space. I definitely don't want to squeeze my own space.

 

[drop bear]

You are talking about ground game. I'm talking about stand up game.

No framing works standing.

 

[seasoned]

I don't like those hidden information. The reason that you create a form is to pass your information down to the next generation so your information will not be lost. To hide information in your form is against your goal

When the kata is done correctly you are not losing information because it will always be there as your understanding of the art grows. Case in point, all blocks are strikes concept is not taught until you thoroughly have an understanding of the block itself. You have high, middle and down blocks that are taught in most Karate dojo as blocks and are within all kata up to and pass black belt...those blocks are used to teach timing and are used as blocks to that end until that upper block used the way it was taught segues into a throat strike. The middle block into a strike to the side of the head and also for various arm locks. And the down block into a groin strike...It is this way with all moves in kata with double and triple meaning.
It's called progression in technique and is at the heart of learning an art as opposed to picking up a little karate here and there...........

 

[jergar]

I see this a lot lately and most of it does come from the mixed martial arts, UFC fan base and to be honest. (Not referring to this forum) I am getting very tired of it, yeah I get the gracie's have their videos of them beating people from multiple styles. Then they use that as some form of crucible that bjj is the best thing ever and everything sucks in comparison.

When in reality what the videos prove is that, hey this family is very talented at what they do. Good for them, in fact that is a very great thing for them, but even they lose sometimes.

I will admit when I had to just wrestle with friends, meaning no striking. I did terrible, then they would say oh what happened to your kenpo? My response was ok want to spar then? They immediately said no which of course was because they don't want to get hit.

People are more prone to wanting to try wrestling arts compared to something where you strike eachother for this reason it seems. Then I got into higher belts in kenpo and they started showing us Judo, and my hate for grappling, or rather dislike for being in such close contact (hugging and rolling) with others went away.

I then realized that I like both, in fact I love them both, I have my preferences sure. I prefer to punch lock and elbow but that moment I tossed someone to the ground for the first time I thought to myself "whoa! I did that!?" Then the Sihing smacked me for standing there dumbfounded and ordered me to do the rest of the technique.

Anyway I had a little too much of my medication so thats why this is long winded. My point is I guess the grappler does not have some rock paper scissors advantage, just because he or she is a grappler. In fact they might be at a disadvantage vs a very talented striker becuase after all, you have to close that gap to grab them and be quick enough to grab a limb.

It is also risky as you can take a mean hit to the face, ribs ect when you are trying to land that grab or takedown. So because of this inherit disadvantage of reach, and after all, it can only take a few or even one good hit to the head and you are done. Why all this attitude of grappling art is better than a striking art?

It is a case of ignorance?

Hi the grappler only has the advantage if the other person try’s to play their game and doesn’t know how! Back in the day I had one instructor who made it his mission to learn and neutralize the grapplers and taught it to us. His first rule : Do not stand still and don’t play their game !

 

[Unkogami]

Hi the grappler only has the advantage if the other person try’s to play their game and doesn’t know how! Back in the day I had one instructor who made it his mission to learn and neutralize the grapplers and taught it to us. His first rule : Do not stand still and don’t play their game !

If you can't close the deal with the first few shots and/or control the distance like an expert, you are going to play that game whether you like it or not.

 

[isshinryuronin]

I don't like those hidden information. The reason that you create a form is to pass your information down to the next generation so your information will not be lost. To hide information in your form is against your goal.

Think of forms as a one or two page outline or bullet points, not as a 100 page comprehensive text. Sort of a syllabus a professor will pass out to the students at the beginning of a semester. During classes throughout the school year he teaches the details and background info using it as a framework for the course.

The key is the professor's personal input and in-depth knowledge to flesh out and explore the bullet points, discussing various interpretations with charts, experiments, anecdotes, and so on. Afterwords, the students can use the outline to remind themselves of the course's full content. This is a good analogy of kata. To put the whole "course" into the form would turn it into a 100 page text and make it a 2 hour long form.

 

[jergar]

If you can't close the deal with the first few shots and/or control the distance like an expert, you are going to play that game whether you like it or not.

Exactly!

 

[jergar]

If you can't close the deal with the first few shots and/or control the distance like an expert, you are going to play that game whether you like it or not.

Exactly!

 

[drop bear]

Hi the grappler only has the advantage if the other person try’s to play their game and doesn’t know how! Back in the day I had one instructor who made it his mission to learn and neutralize the grapplers and taught it to us. His first rule : Do not stand still and don’t play their game !

I am going to say the opposite. The grappler has the advantage if the striker doesn't play the grapplers game.

The last thing mechanically you want to do to defend a takedown is stand tall with your hands up throwing punches.

 

[geezer]

I am going to say the opposite. The grappler has the advantage if the striker doesn't play the grapplers game.

The last thing mechanically you want to do to defend a takedown is stand tall with your hands up throwing punches.

By not playing the grappler's game I thing Jerger is talking about the striker being highly mobile and maintaining range so it's harder to shoot in on him. I don't think he means standing upright and just boxing even at a grappling range. So I don't think you guys are really saying opposite things here.

And, you are absolutely right about the "stand tall with your hands up throwing punches" thing not being wise. Back in the 80s and early 90s Our Wing Tsun group took that dubious approach against shoots and whenever anyone competent shot in on them it when very badly ....for the WT guys. Went beautifully for the wrestlers though.

Their first response was to the problem was to double down on their flawed teaching, and then when that wasn't enough, then to pretty well forbid training with other styles who might really present a challenge. Their techniques worked well enough against a clumsy, uncommitted tackle half-heartedly delivered from too far away ....by one of your own classmates!

My own response was a simple sprawl. My old wrestling skills were degraded and pretty minimal by that point ...but still sure worked better than standing up and trying to elbow the other guy in the back!!! ...See below (32:12-32:22)

Gotta love the sound effects though!

 

[angelariz]

I see this a lot lately and most of it does come from the mixed martial arts, UFC fan base and to be honest. (Not referring to this forum) I am getting very tired of it, yeah I get the gracie's have their videos of them beating people from multiple styles. Then they use that as some form of crucible that bjj is the best thing ever and everything sucks in comparison.

When in reality what the videos prove is that, hey this family is very talented at what they do. Good for them, in fact that is a very great thing for them, but even they lose sometimes.

I will admit when I had to just wrestle with friends, meaning no striking. I did terrible, then they would say oh what happened to your kenpo? My response was ok want to spar then? They immediately said no which of course was because they don't want to get hit.

People are more prone to wanting to try wrestling arts compared to something where you strike eachother for this reason it seems. Then I got into higher belts in kenpo and they started showing us Judo, and my hate for grappling, or rather dislike for being in such close contact (hugging and rolling) with others went away.

I then realized that I like both, in fact I love them both, I have my preferences sure. I prefer to punch lock and elbow but that moment I tossed someone to the ground for the first time I thought to myself "whoa! I did that!?" Then the Sihing smacked me for standing there dumbfounded and ordered me to do the rest of the technique.

Anyway I had a little too much of my medication so thats why this is long winded. My point is I guess the grappler does not have some rock paper scissors advantage, just because he or she is a grappler. In fact they might be at a disadvantage vs a very talented striker becuase after all, you have to close that gap to grab them and be quick enough to grab a limb.

It is also risky as you can take a mean hit to the face, ribs ect when you are trying to land that grab or takedown. So because of this inherit disadvantage of reach, and after all, it can only take a few or even one good hit to the head and you are done. Why all this attitude of grappling art is better than a striking art?

It is a case of ignorance?

Grappling has a few advantages and disadvantages. But im not goingnto bore you with my assessment. I will only say that in today's camera filled society it is easier to explain grappling someone to the ground and holding them for the law. Where as striking someone into unconsciousness could be seen as an assault to Johnny Law.

 

[drop bear]

By not playing the grappler's game I thing Jerger is talking about the striker being highly mobile and maintaining range so it's harder to shoot in on him. I don't think he means standing upright and just boxing even at a grappling range. So I don't think you guys are really saying opposite things here.

And, you are absolutely right about the "stand tall with your hands up throwing punches" thing not being wise. Back in the 80s and early 90s Our Wing Tsun group took that dubious approach against shoots and whenever anyone competent shot in on them it when very badly ....for the WT guys. Went beautifully for the wrestlers though.

Their first response was to the problem was to double down on their flawed teaching, and then when that wasn't enough, then to pretty well forbid training with other styles who might really present a challenge. Their techniques worked well enough against a clumsy, uncommitted tackle half-heartedly delivered from too far away ....by one of your own classmates!

My own response was a simple sprawl. My old wrestling skills were degraded and pretty minimal by that point ...but still sure worked better than standing up and trying to elbow the other guy in the back!!! ...See below (32:12-32:22)

Gotta love the sound effects though!

I was going to mention downward elbows.

But yeah I have seen threads that ask for a kung fu way(or whatever) to stop double legs. And the answer is pretty much always cross face overhook sprawl.

 

[drop bear]

By the way judo and clinch style grappling where you basically have to fight through your opponent's punches is a different dynamic to wrestling where you go through a gap where the punches are not hitting you.

With a huge. Sort of. Attached.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Why grappler has advantage over striker?

You may have experience to take 1000 guys down with full power. But it's difficult to have experience to knock 1000 guys down with full power.

 

[Hanzou]

Why grappler has advantage over striker?

You may have experience to take 1000 guys down with full power. But it's difficult to have experience to knock 1000 guys down with full power.

Grapplers have an advantage over strikers because typically unarmed physical conflicts wind up in grappling/clinching regardless of skill level.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Grapplers have an advantage over strikers because typically unarmed physical conflicts wind up in grappling/clinching regardless of skill level.

Grapplers have advantage over strikers because the striker's

- arm can be wrapped.
- leg can be caught.

When that happen, the striking game end and the grappling game start.

It's easier for a wrestler to learn anti-striking. It's harder for a striker to learn anti-grappling.