"No Outside Game," or Another Thread About Hybrid Arts

[KPM]

It is 2 actions, step then kick, 2 steps or stages. A 2 step punch would be a step then a punch

I don't know what video you are watching. But you seem to be denying reality here.

 

[KPM]

5 feet can be covered with the footwork of a single punch

You still haven't explained it. How about posting a video of it as we have with the kicking?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

He did get his equation wrong, which doesn't make me confident he knows what he is talking about, or that it will bring any light to the situation we are discussing. I have seen people bring in the pseudo physics discussion on forums before and usually it isn't helpful because nobody is a physicist or engineer.

In this particular instance I would say that the F=ma equation is the wrong one to look at the problem. Momentum much more useful for colliding bodies problems

Momentum is a function of mass and velocity (which is probably why Juany put those in the equation). It's the same thing: momentum exists before the point of initial impact, while acceleration happens upon impact. They are not different approaches or views - simply different points in time. Momentum translates to force, dependent upon the time allowed for negative acceleration.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

This is what I will call "2 step strike". You step in your back leg in front your front leg, you then step in your front leg.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think I'm done trying to clear up the semantic differences here.

 

[Hazardi172]

Again, you have received several words of advice so far as to how to post less like Guy. But you seem to ignore that advice. Why is that?

My experience so far is that you seem quite angry at me whatever I say and are convinced that I am someone called Guy. I have said that I am not Guy several times but you still seem sure that I am, no matter whether I type longer or shorter answers. Short answers often all that I can manage since people are responding so quickly!

Other experiece of the forum so far is that very few wing chun people talking (I believe you are JKD, and other main person responding is GPSeymor who is I think aikido?). So quite hard to find common understanding. I am trying my best and don't feel hostile to either JKD or Aikido. Am very happy to hear and accept whatever you do in your own different martial arts

 

[Hazardi172]

This is what I will call "2 step strike". You step in your back leg in front your front leg, you then step in your front leg.

I would call any leg motion a step, regardless of length

 

[KPM]

My experience so far is that you seem quite angry at me whatever I say and are convinced that I am someone called Guy.

----I am not angry. I just have very little patience for people who carry on in a discussion as you have. Guy has burned a lot of us out on that type of discussion. Again, go back and read the advice that has been given to you so far and give it some thought.


Other experiece of the forum so far is that very few wing chun people talking (I believe you are JKD,

---I have studied Wing Chun for over 30 years. I have trained Ip Man Wing Chun in the Augustine Fong lineage, William Cheung's "Traditional" Wing Chun, and I have an instructor rating in Ku Lo Pin Sun Wing Chun. JKD is a more recent addition to my knowledge base and skill set. So when I make comparisons between Wing Chun and JKD, I do know what I am talking about.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I would call any leg motion a step, regardless of length

There is short step and there is long step. You can use 3 steps to cover just 5 feet. You can also use 3 steps to cover 15 feet. The difference is one of your steps can be a "jump".

In your WC system, do you include any "jump" footwork?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Other experiece of the forum so far is that very few wing chun people talking ...

I have trained WC from Jimmy Kao (from YM) back in 1973. That was 43 years ago. But I like to look at WC from a general MA point of view instead of just from the WC point of view.

No moving around is not a bad thing. If you can guard your ground, no matter how strong attack that may land on you, you don't even move back 1 step, that will take a lot of skill and courage.

The WC "outside game" is like the WC "grappling". No matter how deep that you may look into it, IMO, it's still better to look somewhere else instead.

 

[Hazardi172]

I am not angry. I just have very little patience for people who carry on in a discussion as you have. Guy has burned a lot of us out on that type of discussion. Again, go back and read the advice that has been given to you so far and give it some thought

Hey, I can see someone here asked me not to ask too many questions, I have been trying not to do this! Any other advies you can give will be much appreciated

Again have no clue about Guy, what you personally like and don't like. You will need to let me know buddy, because I cannot read minds

I have studied Wing Chun for over 30 years. I have trained Ip Man Wing Chun in the Augustine Fong lineage, William Cheung's "Traditional" Wing Chun, and I have an instructor rating in Ku Lo Pin Sun Wing Chun. JKD is a more recent addition to my knowledge base and skill set. So when I make comparisons between Wing Chun and JKD, I do know what I am talking about.

Great, good to know some other wing chun experience here. I was feeling quite alone

 

[Hazardi172]

There is short step and there is long step. You can use 3 steps to cover just 5 feet. You can also use 3 steps to cover 15 feet. The difference is one of your steps can be a "jump".

In your WC system, do you include any "jump" footwork?

Not jump, more like step of the shootfighter to cover distance fast.

The WC "outside game" is like the WC "grappling". No matter how deep that you may look into it, IMO, it's still better to look somewhere else instead.

I would advise to look into the WSL VT system. Good footwork, very practical, no problem with "outside game". Maybe a bit different to wing chun you have seen so far?

 

[Hazardi172]

I think I'm done trying to clear up the semantic differences here.

Nice to discuss with you. Come and check out WSL VT if you have the opportunity

 

[O'Malley]

Somone looks like he has something to sell... or he's trolling.

 

[Hazardi172]

I don't know what video you are watching. But you seem to be denying reality here.

Advies slow it down and watch again, first footage from 0.0s. Kicker pushes off rear foot, strangely rear foot touches, then front foot touches, kicker flies through the air and rear leg touches again just before kick lands.So looking again appears to be 3 stage movement, 2 jumpy steps and then the kick.

I would call it a pretty different approach to punching in WSL VT, and would be slower and more telegraphed in my opinion. Not to say it wouldn't work, but not really doing the same thing

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I would advise to look into the WSL VT system. Good footwork, very practical, no problem with "outside game". Maybe a bit different to wing chun you have seen so far?

I would love to if you can put up some clips.

 

[Callen]

I was thinking of a video Dan Inosanto did where he said wing chun had "no outside game." He was talking about long-range stuff, of course. Over the last few months I thought about this statement, and it made me wonder: what style with long-range attacks would make a good hybrid with wing chun?

Interesting take. With a good understanding of Wing Chun, the "outside game" isn't a real issue. IMHO, there's no need to and separate the "zones" or "gates" etc.. into areas in which Wing Chun is effective or not. Our job as practitioners is to make the system work for us. If a Wing Chun practitioner has an issue with what do when "outside", then they should try and find the answers within the system.

Guro Dan once talked about the subject in regards to Bruce Lee's attitude towards Wing Chun in general. Bruce was not as good with the system as some of his classmates, such as Hawkins Cheung for instance, so Bruce liked to stay outside because he was not as comfortable on the inside.

The WC "outside game" is like the WC "grappling". No matter how deep that you may look into it, IMO, it's still better to look somewhere else instead.

Are you a Wing Chun practitioner?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Are you a Wing Chun practitioner?

I have trained WC from Jimmy Kao (from YM) back in 1973. That was 43 years ago.

 

[Transk53]

Advies slow it down and watch again, first footage from 0.0s. Kicker pushes off rear foot, strangely rear foot touches, then front foot touches, kicker flies through the air and rear leg touches again just before kick lands.So looking again appears to be 3 stage movement, 2 jumpy steps and then the kick.

I would call it a pretty different approach to punching in WSL VT, and would be slower and more telegraphed in my opinion. Not to say it wouldn't work, but not really doing the same thing

Doesn't matter matter what art, traditional or otherwise, you are either blocked, trapped, or simply gone, if you telegraph a punch. Unless it is feint for a flurry, telegraph you are just gone. Not really doing the same thing is actually irrelevant, if there is no end product. Fighting instinct and actuall fighting, are not necessarily bound by art. Really wish I had more WSL VT experience, but never got on with Wing Chun per se, but would love to be able to shoot you down here down here in a friendly way of course, but what I do know Guy/Hazardi172, you are probably going to get forum slaughtered here

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

In CMA, there are 2 major categories:

- 长拳 long fist (such as northern Shaolin, Pi Qua, Tong Bei, CLF, ...)
- 短拳 short fist (such as WC, southern preying mantis, white eyebrow, Zimen, ...)

Since WC belongs to the "short fist" category,

the PRO are:

- fast multiple punches,
- strong defense,
- ...

The CON are:

- short reach,
- less power in each punch,
- ...

The "long fist" is like rifle that shot 1 bullet at a time. The "short fist" is like machine gun that shots many bullets. Both have value in battle field.