Hybrid Arts

[Gerry Seymour]

When you are dealing with multiple opponents, the grappling is not a good approach. I still remember that onetime my Shuai Chiao teacher got into a fight in an office space against 7 guys. He used mainly elbow in the whole fight, no punch, no kick, no lock, no throw. This is why I always have faith in "elbow". You may not have enough space to punch or kick, but you will always have enough space to strike with your elbow.

IMO, the striking and grappling integration is used mainly in 1 on 1 situation. The moment that you put yourself on the ground, you lose your "mobility". This is why one should also train take down and take off at the same time. Even you take your opponent down, you don't have to go down yourself.

If I'm reading your post correctly, you're referring to ground grappling, only. When I refer to grappling, that includes the standing work (takedowns, etc.) - in fact, we're (NGA) far more predisposed to standing than ground grappling.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yeah you right. Maybe one exception with grabbing one, then using them as a foil, if only for a moment. Which generally is all that is needed.

Which is part of our approach for multiple-attacker work.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If I'm reading your post correctly, you're referring to ground grappling, only. When I refer to grappling, that includes the standing work (takedowns, etc.) - in fact, we're (NGA) far more predisposed to standing than ground grappling.

The problem is when you throw your opponent, your opponent may drag you down with him. Sometime it's difficult to prevent that from happening even if you may try to remain standing. Sometime you can get back up fast. Sometime you can't.

 

[Juany118]

There is a paper,sissors,rock effect in striking that gives advantage to knowing more than one set of striking principles.

I understand that, I just think that most such gaps can be solved without going so far a field. Example. In terms of overall body structure the Kali my WC Sifu also teaches is very similar to my WC as it tries to make the armed and unarmed sides biomechanically consistent and the weapon side has the "end game" being wielding two weapons simultaneously (two swords/sticks, sword/stick and dagger etc). However it includes more varied angles of attack and different defenses. One of them has even been adopted into the WC curriculum, once the basics are understood, by the WC Master whose videos I show on occasion because he likes it's efficiency because it doesn't violate the basic WC principles, though it doesn't look "WC."

It works well on round punches and while this photo has the one applying the cover changing his facing, the arm position can fit into the centerline and forward energy principles of WC.

TL;DR yes it's rock, paper, scissors, lizard, Spock, but there are fighting arts that mesh better together that fill those 5 positions than, in my case, TWC and Tibetan White Crane.

 

[Juany118]

If I'm reading your post correctly, you're referring to ground grappling, only. When I refer to grappling, that includes the standing work (takedowns, etc.) - in fact, we're (NGA) far more predisposed to standing than ground grappling.

This is actually and endless source of frustration for me. When I think of grappling I think...

(Transition photo follows)

When it comes to "ground fighting" this is bout as far as I want to go.

etc.

But when ever I mention grappling I get the feeling others are thinking I mean...

and similar "really" on the ground stuff.

The last photo is the LAST thing I think anyone should want to do in self defense. Concrete and tile hurt in real life. more if you have this around your waist, turn the mag pouch 90 degrees so you can fit a Taser and you have mine...

not just the potential injury issue (when I was younger and rock and rolled the stereotypical judo ground game I went for a few years, not an exaggeration, with bruises on my hips and the waistline along my back. My wife started getting worried it was that bad for that long.) but imagine the instability created by the uneven balance of that crap, the access the bad guy might have to my tools in transitions.

The above is why global statements on "this is what works" annoy me so much. We all have different reasons we study as passionately as we do. There is no "special sauce."

 

[Juany118]

Yes. Domestic abuse, then I learnt.

I think sometimes people miss, tragically, how many situations in this fffed up world people can be trained to "take a hit."

 

[Transk53]

Which is part of our approach for multiple-attacker work.

That's good. Not sure if as area it is neglected, I do think it is, but you pretty much have two choices. Stand your ground and ride it, or look for the exit. For me that kind of training is really important. Not for causing damage or some kind of Chuck Norris badge, but for making the space to retreat. No shame in that, just evaluating what is what. Does that make sense?

 

[Transk53]

I think sometimes people miss, tragically, how many situations in this fffed up world people can be trained to "take a hit."

Yes, and I guess from you're job POV, you see that a lot? Took quite a few hits, but mainly from the bullies. What is really annoying, I became conditioned to taking the hits. Maybe in hindsight not that a bad thing. I'd rather still stand and get a decent punch in (I like to kind of romantically rely on my fists still) then not have to worry about been beaten by a shoddy move. Don't mind so much (well I do but just an example) if I get hit with a decent solid punch. It worse if you get jumped by someone who you clearly get by someone who wouldn't take you on one on one. That make sense?

 

[Transk53]

No.
Every move exept an obvious fake should be designed to work. The punch knocks them out. If it doesn't the clinch/grapple is following up.

Short changing the move you are doing to pull off the next one in combination is a common mistake.

Not as a move though. Better to sting them and then grapple, as apposed to knocking them. Then again, having worked with a couple of Ozzies, I know about the different cultural mentality in play.

 

[Juany118]

Yes, and I guess from you're job POV, you see that a lot? Took quite a few hits, but mainly from the bullies. What is really annoying, I became conditioned to taking the hits. Maybe in hindsight not that a bad thing. I'd rather still stand and get a decent punch in (I like to kind of romantically rely on my fists still) then not have to worry about been beaten by a shoddy move. Don't mind so much (well I do but just an example) if I get hit with a decent solid punch. It worse if you get jumped by someone who you clearly get by someone who wouldn't take you on one on one. That make sense?

It makes sense indeed. What troubles me is that it makes sense to us but most would think we are paranoid.

The only thing I would add is that "in hindsight" it is a bad thing. One I care about could say "in hindsight." No one should ever have to say that and those who make it happen need to die in a fire, period.

 

[Transk53]

It makes sense indeed. What troubles me is that it makes sense to us but most would think we are paranoid.

Yeah probably. Then again, maybe aging has something to do with the paranoia lol. Being just over four years from the fifties, not sure these days if that is scary or not.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The problem is when you throw your opponent, your opponent may drag you down with him. Sometime it's difficult to prevent that from happening even if you may try to remain standing. Sometime you can get back up fast. Sometime you can't.

That is definitely true of one-leg moves like that sweep (and ours). It's far less true of some other takedowns, and mostly only a risk where they have already locked onto you (at which point you're at risk of going to the ground, and putting them down hard is an improvement).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This is actually and endless source of frustration for me. When I think of grappling I think...

(Transition photo follows)

When it comes to "ground fighting" this is bout as far as I want to go.

etc.

But when ever I mention grappling I get the feeling others are thinking I mean...

and similar "really" on the ground stuff.

The last photo is the LAST thing I think anyone should want to do in self defense. Concrete and tile hurt in real life. more if you have this around your waist, turn the mag pouch 90 degrees so you can fit a Taser and you have mine...

not just the potential injury issue (when I was younger and rock and rolled the stereotypical judo ground game I went for a few years, not an exaggeration, with bruises on my hips and the waistline along my back. My wife started getting worried it was that bad for that long.) but imagine the instability created by the uneven balance of that crap, the access the bad guy might have to my tools in transitions.

The above is why global statements on "this is what works" annoy me so much. We all have different reasons we study as passionately as we do. There is no "special sauce."

Agreed. When I speak of grappling, I'm mostly talking about standing work: throws and takedowns. Ground work, for us, has two primary purposes: pin/lock/break (usually from kneeling), or escape. We don't fight on the ground any longer than we have to.

I think the ground = grappling issue comes from folks being so aware of MMA. All people see there of the standing game is a takedown - usually one per fight. So, when "grappling" is discussed, most of it is the groundwork.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This is actually and endless source of frustration for me. When I think of grappling I think...

(Transition photo follows)

When it comes to "ground fighting" this is bout as far as I want to go.

etc.

But when ever I mention grappling I get the feeling others are thinking I mean...

and similar "really" on the ground stuff.

The last photo is the LAST thing I think anyone should want to do in self defense. Concrete and tile hurt in real life. more if you have this around your waist, turn the mag pouch 90 degrees so you can fit a Taser and you have mine...

not just the potential injury issue (when I was younger and rock and rolled the stereotypical judo ground game I went for a few years, not an exaggeration, with bruises on my hips and the waistline along my back. My wife started getting worried it was that bad for that long.) but imagine the instability created by the uneven balance of that crap, the access the bad guy might have to my tools in transitions.

The above is why global statements on "this is what works" annoy me so much. We all have different reasons we study as passionately as we do. There is no "special sauce."

By the way, did you pull that first image from a video, by any chance? I want to see the context of that.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That's good. Not sure if as area it is neglected, I do think it is, but you pretty much have two choices. Stand your ground and ride it, or look for the exit. For me that kind of training is really important. Not for causing damage or some kind of Chuck Norris badge, but for making the space to retreat. No shame in that, just evaluating what is what. Does that make sense?

Exactly. Most of our multiple-attacker work is about movement, navigating through the group, including using their pursuit habits to get them in each other's way. On top of that, we add dropping bodies in their way when possible, as well as learning to work in a way that doesn't give them our back.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The last photo is the LAST thing I think anyone should want to do in self defense. Concrete and tile hurt in real life. more if you have this around your waist, turn the mag pouch 90 degrees so you can fit a Taser and you have mine...

not just the potential injury issue (when I was younger and rock and rolled the stereotypical judo ground game I went for a few years, not an exaggeration, with bruises on my hips and the waistline along my back. My wife started getting worried it was that bad for that long.) but imagine the instability created by the uneven balance of that crap, the access the bad guy might have to my tools in transitions.

The above is why global statements on "this is what works" annoy me so much. We all have different reasons we study as passionately as we do. There is no "special sauce."

I forgot to reply to this part, too.

I sometimes see folks mocking the idea that gravel and glass and such is an issue worth considering. I've seen Gracie videos where they did some of their work on pavement, and have had people tell me they successfully did groundwork on gravel. I don't doubt that. But it's percentages. Doing groundwork on pavement adds chance of getting injured, for both parties. Do it on gravel, and that chance goes up in some ways and down in others. Add glass (even one sharp piece), and it's a whole new possibility of injury. Are those things common? Depends where you are, and I want to limit the adjustments I have to make for environment. So, I tend to work more condensed and close to reduce the adjustments I have to make for constrained spaces. I tend to stay standing so I don't have to account for debris. And so forth. Are there compromises in those decisions? Yes, of course.

 

[Transk53]

I forgot to reply to this part, too.

I sometimes see folks mocking the idea that gravel and glass and such is an issue worth considering. I've seen Gracie videos where they did some of their work on pavement, and have had people tell me they successfully did groundwork on gravel. I don't doubt that. But it's percentages. Doing groundwork on pavement adds chance of getting injured, for both parties. Do it on gravel, and that chance goes up in some ways and down in others. Add glass (even one sharp piece), and it's a whole new possibility of injury. Are those things common? Depends where you are, and I want to limit the adjustments I have to make for environment. So, I tend to work more condensed and close to reduce the adjustments I have to make for constrained spaces. I tend to stay standing so I don't have to account for debris. And so forth. Are there compromises in those decisions? Yes, of course.

There was a Fight Quest episode on Silat, where training on gravel was used. Was on a Volcano. Probably quite risky, but I believe it was to aid balance, more than being an insane idea.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

There was a Fight Quest episode on Silat, where training on gravel was used. Was on a Volcano. Probably quite risky, but I believe it was to aid balance, more than being an insane idea.

I like the idea of training on surfaces. I do outdoor classes from time to time to let students practice on uneven surfaces. I wouldn't do the throws on gravel (that just seems like torture), but the movements on gravel would be good practice.

 

[Juany118]

By the way, did you pull that first image from a video, by any chance? I want to see the context of that.

No but clearly it is from a video. From the original link it appears to be from the Gracie Combatives series.

 

[Juany118]

I like the idea of training on surfaces. I do outdoor classes from time to time to let students practice on uneven surfaces. I wouldn't do the throws on gravel (that just seems like torture), but the movements on gravel would be good practice.

You definitely need to be prepared but I think you hit a good point with the Gracies thing. The other day I found a video by the two who do the combatives series. The video was good in part they actually acknowledged that Gracie BJJ has two forms, one for sport and one for self defense and if you train the sport one only you can have issues. The bad thing about the video was that they said "this is the best self-defense art..." Blah blah blah. Once you are convinced of that idea then "oh you can do it on glass no problem." becomes a necessity regardless of the reality of the situation.