"No Outside Game," or Another Thread About Hybrid Arts

[Juany118]

Yeah but bad physics is also bad physics. And at best you judge punching by pounds per square inch not force. And even then that is not the whole story.

Whether or not the punch works or not is a different story.

Lbs per square inch is a result of the force delivered. The equation for force is m*a. Yes you end up with the surface area of the area you are using to strike with, but the starting point is still f=m*a.

Body mechanics, of a specific type of punch, and range to target determine this. Being in the right place in space, in relation to the target, influences how the body mechanics succeed or fail in this regard. That is all I am saying, if you didn't read all of the back and forth.

The view I was responding to is that your specific position in relation to the target doesn't matter, in essence there is no "too close" or "too far" from the target, the same exact kind of punch always hits with maximum effectiveness regardless of position according to the point I have been disputing.

Few things I will say are just "wrong", but this is one of them, and the point I have been addressing. Even a crap punch hits more weakly if too close or to far from the target.

 

[KPM]

Stepping and kicking is slower than stepping and punching, and step size is limited with kicking compared to punching. There is no difference in range in my experience, and punching with a step is faster

You really need to get out more and see other martial arts. Because that is simply not true!

 

[KPM]

We can punch from any effective distance in fighting. There is no "sweet spot" in WSL VT

Please explain how you would punch an opponent that is standing in his fighting stance 5 feet away from you.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Stepping and kicking is slower than stepping and punching, and step size is limited with kicking compared to punching. There is no difference in range in my experience, and punching with a step is faster

I'm not sure why you think step size has to be more limited for kicking. Any step I can use for a punch, I can use a similar one for a kick (and I'm not a kicking expert). And, yes, kicking is slower. I actually mentioned that ("hands are quicker). It's not a matter of preference of one over the other (I far prefer using my hands). If you want to see how big a step can be used with the kicks, look at some of the videos Jow Ga Wolf has posted in other threads; they can take some very deep steps and sweep off them. Or look at some of the big steps Tae Kwon Do practitioners use to lead into some of their kicks. And many of those long-stepping kicks end up being rear-leg kicks, which bring the rear hip forward, extending the reach even further.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

A punch is not the arm motion, it is the entire motion including the footwork

Here's where you're confusing the discussion, Hazardi. The footwork has two functions: weight transfer (momentum for the strike) and ranging. You've said that the footwork can be used to close the distance, or it can be a different footwork if there's no need to close distance. When you use that second type of footwork, it's because you're in the sweet spot for the strike. When you use a long entering step, it's because you're not in the sweet spot at the beginning of the movement. It doesn't matter that the footwork is integral to the punch - you're still using it in one case to change the range to something that makes the strike useful.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Thanks for the physics lesson, but sounds a bit like you are confused between momentum, speed and acceleration in the WSL VT punch! Also sounds like you didn't take account of how momentum is generated at closer distances in WSL VT

Actually, he's just citing physics. That's the physics for all strikes, because it's physics. Force = Mass * Acceleration. To hit with maximum force for a given strike, you need as much mass as that strike can gather behind it (the reason an arm-only punch isn't useful), and you need that mass moving with as much speed as possible for that strike. The acceleration in the equation is how quickly the mass has to stop (which is mostly dependent upon how fast it is moving at the point of initial impact). If a strike is over-extended, it begins negative acceleration before contact (reducing speed, and therefore reducing the "acceleration" component in the force equation). Momentum is essentially an expression of stored potential force.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

As I said my friend, please do spare me the amateur physics lesson. It is just going to be embarrassing (you have your equation wrong above for example, plus are talking about the wrong thing).



You haven't said anything that I recognise in terms of the WSL VT punch



Gary Lam wing chun is Gary Lam's, not WSL's. For how long did you study with Gary Lam?

Actually, the only thing he has wrong in his equation is that he's citing velocity, rather than acceleration. That's actually only a difference in timing (acceleration is a function of the velocity at the moment of initial impact). And if you don't recognize those physics in relation to your punch, then you don't understand your punch. There's no strike that is exempt from these basic biomechanics and physics.

You're getting condescending again ("it's going to be embarrassing").

 

[Hazardi172]

The equation for force is m*a. Yes you end up with the surface area of the area you are using to strike with, but the starting point is still f=m*a.

Before you said it was F = M x V. You now say F = M x A? Are you sure now

 

[Hazardi172]

Please explain how you would punch an opponent that is standing in his fighting stance 5 feet away from you.

Punch!

 

[Hazardi172]

I'm not sure why you think step size has to be more limited for kicking.

The kind of step used with punching from far out in VT loads the weights so that kicking impossible immediately. The step for a kick is shorter and more balanced

 

[Hazardi172]

When you use that second type of footwork, it's because you're in the sweet spot for the strike.

I would say when we use the first footwork we are far out, and the second when close in. Neither is because we are in any "sweet spot" because the punch is not seperable from the footwork. We just punch as required

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The kind of step used with punching from far out in VT loads the weights so that kicking impossible immediately. The step for a kick is shorter and more balanced

That doesn't change the fact that there are other steps that can be used to enter and kick from that range. You'll note that I never said anything about the kick or punch being specific to any style.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I would say when we use the first footwork we are far out, and the second when close in. Neither is because we are in any "sweet spot" because the punch is not seperable from the footwork. We just punch as required

You're lost in the semantics. You use a bigger step because the shorter step leaves you outside the effective range of the strike.

 

[wckf92]

You're lost in the semantics. You use a bigger step because the shorter step leaves you outside the effective range of the strike.

I'm not so sure he is lost...if I understand him correctly, he is using entirely different footwork pattern(s) when moving from far vs near etc. One is linear, one is more "triangular"...learned via the forms and drills. [not speaking for hazardi, just my .02 from my perspective.] thx.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'm not so sure he is lost...if I understand him correctly, he is using entirely different footwork pattern(s) when moving from far vs near etc. One is linear, one is more "triangular"...learned via the forms and drills. [not speaking for hazardi, just my .02 from my perspective.] thx.

I understand that, but it doesn't change the fact that which is chosen is driven by the need for the footwork to lead to an effective striking distance. His argument is that the step is so integral to the strike (actually true of strikes in many styles) that the range doesn't matter. That would imply that if he's far enough away to use a linear step, he should be able to take any length of step (at random) and deliver an equally effective strike, since range doesn't affect the strike.

 

[Hazardi172]

That doesn't change the fact that there are other steps that can be used to enter and kick from that range. You'll note that I never said anything about the kick or punch being specific to any style.

The maximum step for any kick is going to be shorter than the equivalent maximum step for a punch, that's because kicking requires you stand on one leg and cannot commit weight as far as when you punch

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Stepping and kicking is slower than stepping and punching,...

When you kick, if the distance is far, you have to step in your back leg (rooting leg) before you can kick out your front leg (attacking leg).

But when you step in your back leg, before you land your back foot down, you can kick your front foot out at the same time. It's called "jumping kick" that you combine your "step" and "kick" into 1 move instead of 2 separate moves.

If you do the same for the punch, I believe it's called "superman punch". Which one is faster? IMO, both can have the same speed.

 

[Hazardi172]

You're lost in the semantics. You use a bigger step because the shorter step leaves you outside the effective range of the strike.

The strike isn't separable from the footwork, footwork part of strike. You strike as required to hit what is there

 

[Hazardi172]

I'm not so sure he is lost...if I understand him correctly, he is using entirely different footwork pattern(s) when moving from far vs near etc. One is linear, one is more "triangular"...learned via the forms and drills. [not speaking for hazardi, just my .02 from my perspective.] thx.

Thanks for being open to my point of view

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Please explain how you would punch an opponent that is standing in his fighting stance 5 feet away from you.

Punch!

Hazardi, Your answer to KPM's question is too "abstract". IMO, that's not "sincere enough" for online discussion. Just 1 word "Punch", or "Bong" is just too short.

To respond to one of your posts, besides text, I have put up 2 clips and 1 picture.