Effectiveness of Wing Chun

[skinters]

Yeah, the fence. That's a great idea isn't it. GT's obviously used it himself many times, and, it looks very similar to a WC stance in the first place.

It's the whole (You) "I don't wanna fight mate, seriously" (with forward guard arm up) and BLAM! Then run.

i think aswell geoff coined the phrase,and its application.he makes a reference to wingchun in the second part of the video i posted.

BLAM! Then run.or in geoffs case follow up with a few more .

 

[Si-Je]

Okay, so the effectiveness of Wing Chun as an art of real self-defense, how effective is the art (not the practitioner, the practitioner can always get better, stronger, more experienced) Right? Isn't that the subject, the question?

Is it effective fighting or SD for you to focus your kicks to the persons leg, knee, inner theigh, and groin for SD?

Is it effective striking style to chain punch and follow through when attacking? Is there real power there?

Is it effective to use the "blocks"/deflections of WC in a true confrontation? Can you bust out a tan sau or pak sau when needed? Does it work in the street?

Wing Chun being created as a SD/ street fighting style from it's conception and during it's evolution the past 200+ years, it's practitioners and founders constantly testing it in street fights, challenges, and such would validate it's effectiveness to me. But, not to others maybe. I'd recomend what I recomended before. Focus on what your Sifu's training you. Don't worry about the "full contact" or sparring yet. You just started. Focus on technique, getting the angles right on your deflections, kicking properly, getting comfortable with your stance, and building up your chain punching speed, accuracy, and endurance.
Then, work the punching and kicking bags. Build your POWER then.
Then, work with more application in "light sparring".
Then, when your doing well there work with more heavy and spontaneous sparring.
Give all this a good 6 months. In 6 months of training technique and application then work more on "heavy sparring". That kind of thing will only fluster you, make you get out of technique, and enforce you to focus too much on power. Be patient, train the techniques, drill them, repetition, repetition, walk around in basic stance until you can turn any direction at will comfortably. After all this in 6 month time frame (depending on how often you train. 6 months for 2 days a week, maybe 3 months of 4 days a week.) Then focus on sparring heavy.
Don't jump the gun, you'll just get frustrated and discouraged.
Patience.
Train.
Learn.. First.
Then fight.

 

[Hagakure]

i think aswell geoff coined the phrase,and its application.he makes a reference to wingchun in the second part of the video i posted.

BLAM! Then run.or in geoffs case follow up with a few more .

Mate, didn't have chance to watch those vids earlier, I was at work, and YT is a site no-one's allowed on, but thank you for posting that. I have man-love for Geoff Thompson, and I agreed with his comments about Wing Chun. I would add the caveat that as a chunner, it'd be fairly easy to alter our normal en guard stance to "The Fence" without it seeming too unnatural.

That's another plus to the usefulness of WC as a true self defence method.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

How Effective would WC be in War?

 

[astrobiologist]

Doesn't that depend on the type of warfare? A battalion over a mile away who launch a missile at you... well, none of us can train a technique that will defend against that.

Like I've said before, I have not yet trained in WC. I would really like to find an instructor and see if WC is a good fit for me. Being an "outsider", I wonder at the stories I've read of Ip Man and other WC practitioners. the stories mention strengths of WC, but I wonder (1) are the stories more of a mythology, and (2) the stories usually tend to mention a WC practitioner versus a CMA or JMA practitioner or someone of no martial arts background at all. I wonder, do any of you WC practitioners spar with people who train in other arts?

From the view I've had of WC so far, I reallt think an understanding of Wing Chun would benefit me. I guess I really won't be able to chime in as to the effectiveness of WC again until I actually train in the style and learn a bit more about it and then put it to the test (hopefully in full-on sparring rather than a street fight, though).

 

[Si-Je]

Doesn't that depend on the type of warfare? A battalion over a mile away who launch a missile at you... well, none of us can train a technique that will defend against that.

Like I've said before, I have not yet trained in WC. I would really like to find an instructor and see if WC is a good fit for me. Being an "outsider", I wonder at the stories I've read of Ip Man and other WC practitioners. the stories mention strengths of WC, but I wonder (1) are the stories more of a mythology, and (2) the stories usually tend to mention a WC practitioner versus a CMA or JMA practitioner or someone of no martial arts background at all. I wonder, do any of you WC practitioners spar with people who train in other arts?

From the view I've had of WC so far, I reallt think an understanding of Wing Chun would benefit me. I guess I really won't be able to chime in as to the effectiveness of WC again until I actually train in the style and learn a bit more about it and then put it to the test (hopefully in full-on sparring rather than a street fight, though).

Well honestly. Back in the day (not to long ago either) folks in China would fight the hell out of eachother all the time. They would have big stages in the marketplace where people could challenge and fight eachother for all to see. This was really common. The move "Fearless" was based on a true story with the real man that unified Wu Shu Kung Fu. So, sure take the stories with a grain of salt, but also know that even in the 1960's WC people still fought eachother on the rooftops in Hong Kong, that Eagle Claw Kung Fu and WC have been enemies for ever and I'd bet they Still fight in the streets about it. Sometimes to the death. It's a different country, different rules and it does sound fantastic from the perpective of our culture and laws. But, folks do different stuff overseas.
Probably the reason most of these stories include WC fighting against another CMA or JMA is because well, in China (even still today) everybody's always fighting over who has the best kung fu. And you better prove it.
The Japanese and the Chinese have hated eachother for like, well, forever probably. And the Japanese have actually in times conqured parts of China and oppressed the people there, so, they've fought alot.
Not until Bruce Lee came along did anyone in America ever even hear of Wing Chun. He was a big movie star, but before that he was a Wing Chun teacher in California. The Chinese masters kinda freaked and didn't like him teaching their good stuff to us sloppy Americans. So, he moved on with JKD, and for other reasons created that art and was more known for it too.
But, he was a hard core chunner, and fought alot in Hong Kong before coming to the states, he exposed more people to the art. Yip Man taught more people than previous masters of Wing Chun, but Bruce Lee made it famous. Internationally. Yip Man was Bruce's teacher. Well, one of them, his first teacher of WC.

So, it's a young art for a kung fu style. (only about 200 years old)
It's been tested time and time again in the heat of battle.
It's been largely taught to only one or two students of a master at a time, until GM Yip Man who taught many.

Ex. Some say it came from a nun (or 5 monks, whatever)
she or they had One official student, Yim Wing Chun.
She taught only her husband.
He taught only like two people. and so on and so on until GM Yip Man. WC was largely passed down to only a very select few. Why? I don't know.

But, now it's available to almost anyone who wants to seek it out. Thanks to Yip Man and Bruce Lee, I think, for opening the door to more people, they stoped making it a "secret".

If you get the chance man, take the art. Don't worry so much about "practicality", train. It's foundatation is baptised in the very blood of practicality. Others did the work for us, reap the benefits. Train it for a good 6 months to a year whatever and get in a match at a tournament, cage, MMA club, sparr with friends and try it out.

And to answer the other question, yes, many here do spar and train with other stylists to keep their WC sharp. That's all part of the best of the fun of WC. If you want to compete it's a good art for that, if you want serious self defense, it's one of the best you could take for that. You just have to put the time in training, just like anyother art.

 

[mook jong man]

One thing that your assuming is that all Wing Chun is the same , there are different lineages and they all do things in different ways . I have seen some schools where the difference in the way they do things is like that of Karate to Kung Fu , different stances , different guard configurations and different ways of countering common attacks .

For instance we had a guy come into our academy for a visit from Mexico , very nice fellow . He wanted to do some chi sau sparring with me , so I obliged . As soon as we started rolling he went into a one foot forward stance , I said how come you do that and he said thats the way we are taught to do chi sau .

His hands were very quick , but I saw that leg sticking out in front of me so I sweeped him to the floor and I did that about five times . After training I took him down the pub for a few beers and he told me stories of how he had to use his Wing Chun to save a girl that was about to be raped and had to use his Wing Chun to defend himself in other encounters , so the impression I got is that Mexico city is a very violent place .

But he made his Wing Chun work for him even though his was as different to ours as chalk and cheese. What I am saying is just don't settle on one flavour of Wing Chun take a sample of them all , and then you will have to decide on which one you think is the most practical for you .

I was astonished to hear that some Wing Chun schools in the U.S don't even do sparring , If you go to a school and they don't do hard chi sau sparring and also sparring of the type with random punches and kicks thrown at you with realistic power and speed , then you should turn around and walk right out that door .

Because in my opinion that is not a martial art that is just playing with peoples hands in nice prearranged patterns , and those people will get a big wake up call on the street when the first lightning fast jab comes rocketing into their face .

 

[Hagakure]

Doesn't that depend on the type of warfare? A battalion over a mile away who launch a missile at you... well, none of us can train a technique that will defend against that.

Like I've said before, I have not yet trained in WC. I would really like to find an instructor and see if WC is a good fit for me. Being an "outsider", I wonder at the stories I've read of Ip Man and other WC practitioners. the stories mention strengths of WC, but I wonder (1) are the stories more of a mythology, and (2) the stories usually tend to mention a WC practitioner versus a CMA or JMA practitioner or someone of no martial arts background at all. I wonder, do any of you WC practitioners spar with people who train in other arts?

From the view I've had of WC so far, I reallt think an understanding of Wing Chun would benefit me. I guess I really won't be able to chime in as to the effectiveness of WC again until I actually train in the style and learn a bit more about it and then put it to the test (hopefully in full-on sparring rather than a street fight, though).

No one can truly assess the effectiveness of WC, only the effectiveness of WC for them. A crap martial artist who trains once a month, puts no effort in, doesn't look after themselves body and mind, it doesn't matter if they train Wing Chun, Karate, MMA or if they have a small thermo nuclear warhead to their backs it won't work.

As I've mentioned, my beliefs for the hallmark of an effective MA for SD is simple to learn, simple to use, easy to adapt to be aggressively proactive (why let the other guy get the first shot in?) in a SD scenario. In my eyes WC ticks all the boxes. Also, not meant in a funny way, but you can theorise about the effectiveness of WC all you like, but it's all just talk unless you just go and find out for yourself in a class.

 

[skinters]

mook you said:One thing that your assuming is that all Wing Chun is the same there are different lineages and they all do things in different ways .

you know i think over the years wingchun had become diluted,and although i have always looked at winchun as a living,changing form,to much change away from the essence of the basics can,and does in my eyes result in the form,being less effective.you can see the proof in this by just taking a look at all the different lineages,and offshoots.also people taking a few lessons of WC,and then passing it on making the form weaker still.

how much real WC is there?,i mean you only got to look on youtube for example to see how poor it is.i know the old maxim,that it is the man who is the style,but you still need a strong style to work with.

 

[chisauking]

Is wing chun effective?

Is a hammer designed for hammering nails effective?

Is a car made for transport effective?

Is wing chun -- a method conceived for inflicting damage & killing -- effective?


Yes, as long as you 1, you use it for its intended purpose. 2, the competence of the user.

For example, if you use a hammer to screw a nail, then no, it isn't effective. If the car is driven by a blind person, then no the car isn't effective.

No different for wing chun. If you use it for sport, then no, it will not be effective, because it wasn't conceived for that purpose. If the practitioner hasn't the skills to apply wing chun and isn't prepared to use it in the way it was intended to be used -- with full conviction & with violent intent, doing what ever it takes, using all the tools to its fullest -- then no, wing chun isn't effective.

Take wing chun's lin-wan keun, for example. Most people say it doesn't work. But...how did they come to this conclusion? Well, you would laugh at the answer: they put on heavy protective helmets & 12oz boxing gloves, wearing no shoes, sparring on nice padded mats with nice rules.

Under those conditions, is it no wonder that wing chun's lin-wan keun doesn't work? Wing chun's lin-wan keun works in conjuction with the the footwork and kicks. It's the equaverlent of the foil in fencing, not the excaliber. It's a fast weapon that targets weak points, and it keeps chasing the same damaged points until the opponent is finished. It relies in the speed to hit the opponent before they can react, and the practitioner must be prepared to smash the opponent's eyes & nose, and stomp kick the knees in a contigous manner to prevent the opponent from retaliating. If you wear thick helments, how's the punch suppose to get in? If your not prepared to inflict real damage to your opponent, how can fast punches work? The answer is, under 'kick boxing' conditions, it doesn't work.

No different for any other tools\weapon. Put a glove on a hammer and it's no longer effective. Put a nib on the end of a foil and it wouldn't even go through soft butter.

Any one with intelligence can see from my examples that any tool is only as effective as when used for its intended purpose by a competent user.

 

[KamonGuy2]

mook you said:One thing that your assuming is that all Wing Chun is the same there are different lineages and they all do things in different ways .

you know i think over the years wingchun had become diluted,and although i have always looked at winchun as a living,changing form,to much change away from the essence of the basics can,and does in my eyes result in the form,being less effective.you can see the proof in this by just taking a look at all the different lineages,and offshoots.also people taking a few lessons of WC,and then passing it on making the form weaker still.

how much real WC is there?,i mean you only got to look on youtube for example to see how poor it is.i know the old maxim,that it is the man who is the style,but you still need a strong style to work with.

Groan. I'm tired of people calling wing chun 'diluted'. If anything, it has become stronger. What has happened is that countries have collided in the modern age and people are more aware of other arts

In Yip Man's era, there was access to a very limited amount of martial arts. Schools were very secretive, and travelling to the other side of the world was extremely difficult

Therefore, people in Hng kong would rarely know of 'western arts' and vice versa
Nowadays we have things like UFC, Pride, Open tournaments, olympics, SENI, internet, etc, where martial arts are very accessible

This means that many good arts get 'crowded out' or compared to other arts. This is where wing chun starts to expand rapidly

Too many 'traditionalists' (or 'idiots' as I like to call them) insist that you only ever need one art to fight good martial artists. I have never witnessed this being successful yet, and it was the first thing Bruce Lee found out when he came to America. Sure he hadn't mastered wing chun, but he was very good at what he did know, and knew it wasn't enough. He recognised that there was a need for grappling and long range techniques

In this modern era, GOOD wing chun practitioners acknowledge that every style lacks something and needs to be progressive and expansive in order to maintain validity

If you get a guy, train him in one art for 30 years, of course he is going to be good to a degree. But they will still be very blinkered.

A CKD instructor who I trained under boasted very opnely to his students that he had traiend for 30+ years
When it came down to it, he was fast, he had power, but when someone came at him and put pressure on, he folded. His defence against a grab was terrible and unrealistic. Yet he refused to train out of his system. I consider it essential to get out there and look at other styles. Get an idea of how times change and look at things from other angles.

Wing chun is effective. It has techniques that many other arts do not have and builds good qualities in students. The main thing is not to get carried away thinking that the art is flawless and perfect the way it is

 

[Ben Grimm]

Have to agree with you 100%. Times have changed and arts have been modified. It doesn't necessarily make the art weaker, but it can if the person making the modifications is an idiot.

 

[KamonGuy2]

Perfectly put.

 

[WCman1976]

Hello. I am new to Wing Chun. I have not yet found a school or an instructor. I have simply been reading and watching videos about WC. It seems like Wing Chun could be a very effective style. I had posted something to this effect on a forum at **************. A member responded with this...

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrackFox
Have you tried many martial arts that emphasise clinch range fighting against a fully resisting opponent? There's very little evidence to support your assertion, so I'm wondering what frame of reference you're using to assess Wing Chung's effectiveness.

The assertion he spoke of is that Wing Chun seems like an effective style. I responded with this:

There aren't many martial arts that emphasize in-fighting almost solely. However, taking an analytical look at Okinawan, Japanese, and Korean martial arts one will see elements similar to wing chun emphasized in the techniques and forms. Students studying the Seisan Kata of Isshinryu such as myself may see that they are preactising the Wing Chun bong sau and tan sau techniques during the second set of techniques they perform. These together are also similar to the inside-to-outside block/strike of Shotokan and Tang Soo Do. They are effective for a quick block/parry and a strike.

From my reading it sounds like there could be a lot of "evidence" for the effectiveness of Wing Chun, but for the most part it is hear-say. I wonder if your "evidence" for backing up why you think Wing Chun is not effective is also hear-say. It can be pretty difficult to determine what stories you hear in the martial arts are true and which aren't. My reasoning for seeing Wing Chun as effective is that I see simple, strong techniques which are not committed. I see a style where the emphasis is for getting away from the flashy", baton-twirling we see in a lot of martial arts. Wing Chun has a focus on using a minimal energy to deflect, trap, or strike. I'm not saying that Wing Chun is the ultimate martial art. Indeed, I don't really even practise this art myself. All I'm saying is that I see a system for close range fighting which appears to have effective techniques.

I wonder what system you think must be better. Maybe Krav Maga, Modern Army Combatives, Brazillian Jiu-Jitsu? I think if you actually take a look at these arts and many others you'll see that many of the principles for in-fighting are similar (not the grappling, the close range fighting when arms have not yet been trapped or just at the moment of trapping/clinching). From my own observations, it seems like Wing Chun emphasizes the best of all of these techniques. From deflections and parries, to controlling wrists and elbows, to getting under or over a guard, to quick impulse-based short range strikes, to low-body attacks with the legs and blocking with the legs. There aren't any of the over-the-head haymakers, or jump spinning kicks, or similar moves which can be great for exercise but are not very useful in close-range self defense.


I was wandering what some long time practitioners of Wing Chun thought. Can you school me here? Is there anything else I should add in my response to this guy? Are my points valid?

Like I said I'm new to learning about Wing Chun, but I think it would be a great addition to my martial art.

It's interesting that you point out the other styles that have in-fighting as part of their system. The techniques are very similiar because, honestly, in such limited space it'd be difficult to do TOO much. Having said that, I have studied wing chun for some time now. I've never had to use it in a real fight. However, I've had instances where my brother-in-law tried to come at me. (He's one of those alpha male types who, when in a verbal argument, is quick to get physical when the argument exceeds his mental capabilities.) After spending years of training in a style based on speed (and practicing chi sao against others ALSO trained in said style), it looked to me like my brother-in-law was moving in slow motion. He seriously intended to do me harm, but he never touched me. Wing chun helps to minimize your reaction time by relying on fast techniques. They may not be knockout blows, but they serve their purpose: to keep the OTHER guy's knockout blow from reaching you first! After all, you could be fighting the strongest person in the world...but all that strength means nothing if they can never land a blow.