What was Wing Chun designed for?

[drop bear]

The problem with common sense is that the common man is led easily by any number of cognitive dissonances and largely devoid of critical thought to all but the most basic level.

When have you seen a comparison of twins given proven training in combat skills and in universally agreed upon versions of distinct styles, to a universally agreed upon level of proficiency?

That could constitute evidence of something, but what you are talking about is anecdotal. Yes even though it's on film, it's worthless as evidence because you haven't controlled the variables of which there are many.

It's nothing to do with being politically correct and everything to do with critical thinking (that thing the anti-pc brigade avoids in favour of common sense).
I listed a bunch of reasons why style v style is rubbish but rather than thinking about them you took the common approach to breeze on to a deeply, deeply flawed analogy that only shows what you want it to if you don't look at it too hard or if you really want to see that something in it.

If all things were equal in your analogy you'd have a draw, because the two opponents are equally able to defend themselves against their opponent. A sword is less dangerous than an armed F22 fighter jet, but if your not a fighter pilot the sword guy wins.

There are a bunch of other ways to defeat this line of reasoning (not least is we're talking about unarmed combat) but since you haven't addressed mine i will leave it there.

Exept that you can't logically support the concept of training at all if training has no effect on the outcome.

Otherwise if the type of training you did had no effect we could just compare any two training methods. And just look at hours put in.

Or I could just post another video of yellow bamboo and argue that no amount of hours,dedication or natural ability will make that system work.

 

[drop bear]

Ok, so all styles are equally viable, the man with a spoon and the man with a sword fight to a draw?

LOL.

Critical thinking huh?

Here is also a fun concept. it means my style of aikido or karate or kung fu is as viable as the people who have any sort of clue as to what they are on about.

 

[drop bear]

Nobody was disputing the idea that some movements are more efficient than others. The dispute is whether that is the be all and end all of fight effectiveness.

Again you would have got that if you actually <sacrilege>thought</sacrilege> about the counter argument being presented.

Being big and mean and athletic will help you in a fight. Very few martial arts promote that they are designed to defend against weak timid oponants though.

 

[drop bear]

Those people training a few months are most likely fit and young. Those training traditional arts for years are old and in some cases quite unfit for extended fighting longer than a few seconds.

Exept boxing for some reason. Old boxers just seem to want to bash people.

 

[drop bear]

Even today WC/VT is knowingly incorporated along with FMA, BJJ and other arts into the training of Special Operations and Security Forces/Law Enforcement across the world. If it didn't work, that wouldn't be the case.

Why?

As master ken said. I will respect Krav Maga when the IDF win a war.

 

[Phobius]

So why aren't the fit young aikidoists and Kung Fu men beating old seasoned boxers and BJJ black belts?

EDIT 2: Nwm my post. Just saw drop bear already responded.

 

[karatejj]

I missed my own point? Ok then.

I see your reading comprehension is on par with your command of the English language.

No man, you missed this guys point

You guys are talking about "the opponent" and "to the body" when discussing a one-man form.

You must be seeing things.

You're replied

So you are saying, in effect, that the forms in the vt you study aren't purposed to train your body to deal with opponents? What else would that movement be for?

You're completely missed his point. If someone you can talk down too like me can see it, then what does that make you, eh mr big brain? Lol

 

[Phobius]

Exept boxing for some reason. Old boxers just seem to want to bash people.

Funny, not related but still funny. Never fight a boxing trainer and ex boxing pro after having pissed him off. Especially if you are a beginner yourself. Age just wont help you there.

And back to the problem. Many people train martial art not to be fighters but to be proud of their own achievements. Then they go on and think they are fighters, but the fighters are not them but the people they train.

I think boxing and many other competitive sports have a tendency to make non-competing practitioners become invisible. These are the kind of people you would never fear in a competition but mostly I believe they just search for fitness and will not fight themselves anyway.

Same goes for non competitive sports but the lack of competing element will often mean that you can not separate the fighters from the hobbyists.

Now take a class of Kung Fu students. My belief is that in todays society in most parts of the world they are pure hobbyists that want to achieve something and feel unbeatable. These people will not want much to destroy their belief so they avoid any risk of putting that to test.

The fighters are still there but their intention is not to win, if it was they would head for other arts where they can win. So what kind of fighter wants to learn an art that has no way of winning. If you beat someone up in real life you have only things to lose? Well perhaps it is the ones that want to be ready for everything. As an example these guys will probably by natural instinct work hard every day to make choices that will not put them in harms way.

Would they spar? Yes. Would you see them in a thug fight on YouTube? Probably not unless they are being jumped unprepared with a camera rolling.

 

[drop bear]

Funny, not related but still funny. Never fight a boxing trainer and ex boxing pro after having pissed him off. Especially if you are a beginner yourself. Age just wont help you there.

And back to the problem. Many people train martial art not to be fighters but to be proud of their own achievements. Then they go on and think they are fighters, but the fighters are not them but the people they train.

I think boxing and many other competitive sports have a tendency to make non-competing practitioners become invisible. These are the kind of people you would never fear in a competition but mostly I believe they just search for fitness and will not fight themselves anyway.

Same goes for non competitive sports but the lack of competing element will often mean that you can not separate the fighters from the hobbyists.

Now take a class of Kung Fu students. My belief is that in todays society in most parts of the world they are pure hobbyists that want to achieve something and feel unbeatable. These people will not want much to destroy their belief so they avoid any risk of putting that to test.

The fighters are still there but their intention is not to win, if it was they would head for other arts where they can win. So what kind of fighter wants to learn an art that has no way of winning. If you beat someone up in real life you have only things to lose? Well perhaps it is the ones that want to be ready for everything. As an example these guys will probably by natural instinct work hard every day to make choices that will not put them in harms way.

Would they spar? Yes. Would you see them in a thug fight on YouTube? Probably not unless they are being jumped unprepared with a camera rolling.

Yeah. No vehicle for fighters to exel and be recognized. No clear line between guys who can fight and guys who can't.

Which makes people rely on belt colors, linage and image.

When I used to bounce. we quite often relied on status as a fighter rather than actual fighting. It was a way of keeping the sharks off you.

Luckily everyone else was doing the same thing. So if i beat up barry knuckles. It wasn't because he was pretending to be a hard man while in reality just being a bully. It was because I was so extra hard.

Martial arts does this a lot. Where in say boxing you cant because you are either winning fights or loosing them.

 

[wckf92]

But don't you WC guys always like to

Oh dear....

 

[Juany118]

Why?

As master ken said. I will respect Krav Maga when the IDF win a war.

Well first that was satire. The IDF has won wars, which I am sure the man behind Master Ken knows . The first three that come to mind are their war for Independence (which the creator of KM fought in) but also the 6 Day War and the Yom Kippur War. There are other conflicts as well.

In other threads you noted that combat today doesn't just involving killing. Especially with Special Operations it's often about capture and that is where Martial Arts can come into play. Are they going to be showing that on YouTube? Nope but you can bet your bottom dollar if Operators say "this **** doesnt work" they will stop training it. That community adapts FAR faster than the "regular" forces.

 

[KPM]

The rest you'll need to do yourself.

Thanks! I've seen that one and others in that collection. But why do you think that wouldn't be considered a "valid win"?? That is what I was questioning about your last post.

 

[KPM]

Not being argumentative. That action doesn't represent the intent to punch someone with a bent wrist.



No one has been asked to believe anything.
I specifically said I don't care to convince anyone.

If interested, people have been invited to go check it out.
If not interested or unwilling to do so, don't talk about "lack of evidence".

You know, Geezer asked you a very simple question which you have avoided answering several times now. Why is that? That certainly is not very "friendly"!

 

[drop bear]

Well first that was satire. The IDF has won wars, which I am sure the man behind Master Ken knows . The first three that come to mind are their war for Independence (which the creator of KM fought in) but also the 6 Day War and the Yom Kippur War. There are other conflicts as well.

In other threads you noted that combat today doesn't just involving killing. Especially with Special Operations it's often about capture and that is where Martial Arts can come into play. Are they going to be showing that on YouTube? Nope but you can bet your bottom dollar if Operators say "this **** doesnt work" they will stop training it. That community adapts FAR faster than the "regular" forces.

My issue is this becomes a bit like the kabar argument. It is cool because soldiers carry them.

I have just made a lot of assumptions to get to that point. And none of them really tie directly to the product.

 

[KPM]

Johnny flails forms his own style, flail fu. You basically just flail your arms at people. So now we have the style, flail fu..which is apparently just as effective as boxing?

Here is Johnny Flails himself! Russian version!

When it comes to fighting effectiveness, it is both the person AND the system. I agree that just because a martial art exists, doesn't mean it is as equally valid and effective as other martial arts. Do you think the baloney above is just as valid and effective as Wing Chun? Or MMA? Or boxing? But you also do have to include the human factor. Do you think if you took the guy in the videos above and actually taught him Wing Chun that he would be equally as effective as some of the guys in recent videos? Is a 120 lb guy that knows Wing Chun really stand a good chance against a 220 lb experienced street-fighter? Its both the martial art system and the guy doing it! But just as it would be silly to presume that two guys doing the same system would be equally effective, it is just as silly to assume that some methods are NOT more effective fighting styles than others! I would put "flail fu" at the bottom of the list! (hope I don't get demerit points for "style bashing"!!!)

 

[Knapf]

Oh dear....

 

[Juany118]

My issue is this becomes a bit like the kabar argument. It is cool because soldiers carry them.

I have just made a lot of assumptions to get to that point. And none of them really tie directly to the product.

Well I won't get into the argument that the kbar is just an awesome tool all around (people tend to look at a knife sometimes and forget it is also supposed to be a tool, not just a weapon) but there is a reason I mentioned Special Operations.

The "regular' Military has issues with bureaucracy. There change can be slow. Just look at Afghanistan and Iraq. The US, Australia and other forces fought in Vietnam but afterwards got stuck in the "Cold War" mindset again and they had to basically rewrite the "regular army" counter-insurgency manual that had already been written in Vietnam.

The Special Operations forces don't suffer from such inertia. They are the ultimate test bed because even though it doesn't make the papers they are constantly being deployed, even in "peace time." Once in an active Unit the level of training is ridiculously higher than that of a "regular" unit as well. Because of their level of training, comparatively small size of the community, and experience it's not a matter of "okay soldiers this is what the Pentagon has determined is the best method of training", rather it's "okay Officer's, what do your guy's say works and doesn't work." Sometimes it takes experimentation but WC has been part of (not exclusive of course) the curriculum there since the 80's. If it didn't work it wouldn't have lasted. It really is two different worlds. I won't question the input of someone who will have seen as much "trigger time" as these people and I think anyone who would question it needs to do a serious check on their own ego tbh. There is a reason the Community is called "elite".

So if I was just saying "the US Army trains X" I might agree with you. The Special Operations community is a very different beast though and if it didn't work for them they quite literally would not train it.

 

[Martial D]

Again it's pressure testing. The reason I mentioned Lei tai and the roof top is to ram that point home. You can't find a boxing or BJJ school that doesn't pressure test. They are much harder to find but if you find a TMA school that also pressure tests you see similar results. Imagine for a moment a boxer who only ever shadow boxed. How well do you think he would do against a baxer who regularly sparred. Same thing. Lack of pressure testing will break ANY martial arts system.

Pressure testing is a big part too, but pressure testing doesn't always just leave you doing the same thing but 'now it works'; what it often results in is a drastic style change, as you tire of whiffing or getting clocked in the mouth or not even being able to get off your cool technique anymore. The pressure doesn't always make you better at your style, it often makes YOU better by moving away from a restrictive or ineffective system, in the ways that count.

This is why a lot of fighters of this or that system don't 'look like' their system when they fight. They are no longer 'karate fighters' or 'kung fu fighters', they are fighters that happen to know, and draw from those arts when applicable.

Honestly, F systems. Fill ranges, git good.

 

[Juany118]

Honestly, F systems. Fill ranges, git good.

I would say this is a valid concept

 

[drop bear]

Well I won't get into the argument that the kbar is just an awesome tool all around (people tend to look at a knife sometimes and forget it is also supposed to be a tool, not just a weapon) but there is a reason I mentioned Special Operations.

The "regular' Military has issues with bureaucracy. There change can be slow. Just look at Afghanistan and Iraq. The US, Australia and other forces fought in Vietnam but afterwards got stuck in the "Cold War" mindset again and they had to basically rewrite the "regular army" counter-insurgency manual that had already been written in Vietnam.

The Special Operations forces don't suffer from such inertia. They are the ultimate test bed because even though it doesn't make the papers they are constantly being deployed, even in "peace time." Once in an active Unit the level of training is ridiculously higher than that of a "regular" unit as well. Because of their level of training, comparatively small size of the community, and experience it's not a matter of "okay soldiers this is what the Pentagon has determined is the best method of training", rather it's "okay Officer's, what do your guy's say works and doesn't work." Sometimes it takes experimentation but WC has been part of (not exclusive of course) the curriculum there since the 80's. If it didn't work it wouldn't have lasted. It really is two different worlds. I won't question the input of someone who will have seen as much "trigger time" as these people and I think anyone who would question it needs to do a serious check on their own ego tbh. There is a reason the Community is called "elite".

So if I was just saying "the US Army trains X" I might agree with you. The Special Operations community is a very different beast though and if it didn't work for them they quite literally would not train it.

And what special forces are doing this training? and who is the trainer? How much of it is trained? In what combination. There are just so many questions left unanswered before any conclusion can be made.

Just a quick look and I have already found a rift within one special forces community. Suggesting there is more at play than the best system winning out.

Feature: Navy SEALs stir up controversy with MMA training

China?
I have no idea how legit or applicable this one is.
China’s Modern Military Combat: Death of Kung Fu? | TanDao