No Outside Game??? Huh???

[punisher73]

It's not different, but I consider the act of bridging the gap as part of outside game...because at one point you aren't near your opponent, and the next you are. Maybe that is just the way I interpret things.

I would say that it is your interpretation. WC closes the gap to get in close, it does not really have tools to stay on the outside kicking range to implement a good offense if you CAN'T close the gap.

 

[blindsage]

A good place to ask this question would be in the JKD section.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Jkd does teach moving in and the out fast. Can't remember what the step is called but it is trained as part of jkd. Move in strike and then move back quick to get out of range. It is my understanding that wing chun likes to stay close.

With that said, the guy I trained jkd with likedwing chun, he just thought the stance was to upright making the head an easier target.

 

[mook jong man]

Jkd does teach moving in and the out fast. Can't remember what the step is called but it is trained as part of jkd. Move in strike and then move back quick to get out of range. It is my understanding that wing chun likes to stay close.

With that said, the guy I trained jkd with likedwing chun, he just thought the stance was to upright making the head an easier target.

The straight spine is what enables it to generate massive amounts of power at close range , besides that , the hands protect the head.
He is judging Wing Chun through the lens of a western boxing type mentality , which is a flawed way of thinking.

Apart from the fact that they both use the hands , Wing Chun generates force in a totally different manner.

 

[Xue Sheng]

The straight spine is what enables it to generate massive amounts of power at close range , besides that , the hands protect the head.
He is judging Wing Chun through the lens of a western boxing type mentality , which is a flawed way of thinking.

Apart from the fact that they both use the hands , Wing Chun generates force in a totally different manner.

I'm not disagreeing with you about Wing Chun (I did disagree with him), but I am disagreeing with you about how he judged it, since I knew him and you didn't. He trained Wing Chun (but I don't know how much) then went to JKD (Poteet) and followed that with Jun Fan (Davis). He liked Wing Chun, just did not like the stance.

But none of that was the point of my previous post. The point was about the way JKD dealt with distance and Wing Chun liked to stay close.

 

[geezer]

...But none of that was the point of my previous post. The point was about the way JKD dealt with distance and Wing Chun liked to stay close.

Xue, your point squares pretty well with the Wing Chun I've trained. When the opportunity is presented we close and keep the pressure on. In fact we have no retreating steps!

We do have "yielding steps" that create distance between us and our opponents, but by yielding we mean to "compress like a spring" and give way before pressure, not to step back of our own accord. Our footwork like our hand techniques is always characterized by forward pressure directed at our opponent's center.

 

[Vajramusti]

Could not get the url on this machine (someone else's pc). But if you google
Augustine Fong fighting demo 1979 and watch Fong sifu's part of the fight demo you will see plenty of closing in from a distance.

Of course it's a demo but can get a sense of my point.

Wing chun is not a set of techniques- it's way of shaping and controlling motion.
Other styles practice on the outside and try to figure out how to get in. Some wing chun (including the reverse)-
when you master the inside you can work outside whenever it's needed.

 

[geezer]

Wing chun is not a set of techniques- it's way of shaping and controlling motion.

Well put. I'm going to share this with my class tomorrow night.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

An outside game is someone who works to nullify the gap bridging to keep the fight at a distance.

You really should have both.

Agree, if your opponent uses

- "fire" strategy (unpredictable footwork) such as boxer's footwork that move like butterfly, or
- "wood" strategy (long range attack) such as jab, haymaker, roundhouse kick, side kick, hook kick, spin hook kick, ...,

after your opponent throws one attack, he keeps distance, avoids arm contact, when you try to close the distance, he moves back, you will be put into a disadvantage situation.

 

[mook jong man]

Agree, if your opponent uses

- "fire" strategy (unpredictable footwork) such as boxer's footwork that move like butterfly, or
- "wood" strategy (long range attack) such as jab, haymaker, roundhouse kick, side kick, hook kick, spin hook kick, ...,

after your opponent throws one attack, he keeps distance, avoids arm contact, when you try to close the distance, he moves back, you will be put into a disadvantage situation.

Yeah , try doing all that in a crowded bar , concert venue , in between parked cars etc , on public transport etc.
You know , places where real world violence tends to happen.

Keep trying to dance around and stay at a distance and eventually you are going to back into an object , be it a wall , chairs , an innocent onlooker , a curb etc.
The ability to generate power in very close without any drawing back , having the skill and reflex to defend at close range where most others cannot will always be a valuable skill to have.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Yeah , try doing all that in a crowded bar , concert venue , in between parked cars etc , on public transport etc.
You know , places where real world violence tends to happen.

Keep trying to dance around and stay at a distance and eventually you are going to back into an object , be it a wall , chairs , an innocent onlooker , a curb etc.
The ability to generate power in very close without any drawing back , having the skill and reflex to defend at close range where most others cannot will always be a valuable skill to have.

Agree with what you have said. But will it be better to be able to do both?

 

[mook jong man]

Agree with what you have said. But will it be better to be able to do both?

No , because then you have to devote precious training time to both.
Which takes away from concentrating on your core specialty , which in our case is close range.

Being a specialist is quite common in other walks of life.
No one says to the dentist that he should be able to operate on brains as well.
No one says to Tae Kwon Do people that they should have a working knowledge of chi sau.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I was watching an interview with Dan Inosanto where he said without wing chun, there would have been no JKD. So he sings praises of it at first, but then switches gears and says wing chun has no "outside game." What is he talking about??? I don't know how much of wing chun he has even seen (given that Bruce Lee himself never even finished the system), but he isn't talking about the style as *I* know it. How can a guy who has been in martial arts for this long not realize some basic facts? I'm talking about simple truths like:

*a kicker will train to keep his opponent at kicking range
*a boxer would train to keep someone at punching range
*a grappler will train to get close enough to grapple

Therefore, wouldn't it be a given that wing chun practitioners train to close the gap and enter the trapping range?

I don't know. To me that came off as an epic fail on Inosanto's part. Just my opinion.

When Bruce Lee said other arts were too stylized, I think he was including Wing Chun, and why not?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

No , because then you have to devote precious training time to both.
Which takes away from concentrating on your core specialty , which in our case is close range.

Being a specialist is quite common in other walks of life.
No one says to the dentist that he should be able to operate on brains as well.
No one says to Tae Kwon Do people that they should have a working knowledge of chi sau.

I can see that you don't like the idea of "cross training".

 

[mook jong man]

I can see that you don't like the idea of "cross training".

I have cross trained quite a lot actually , grappling , stick fighting , knife fighting , even a bit of Krav Maga.

But at some point you realize there are only so many hours in the day.

 

[wingchun100]

When Bruce Lee said other arts were too stylized, I think he was including Wing Chun, and why not?

Keep in mind Bruce did not learn all of wing chun, nor did he learn all of ANY other style out there. What I have noticed across multiple styles is that people tend to make it their own after a while whereas at first it is sort of like a factory assembly line. LOL Same goes for Bruce too. I know some high level wing chun people who view JKD simply as Bruce's interpretation of WC.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Keep in mind Bruce did not learn all of wing chun, nor did he learn all of ANY other style out there. What I have noticed across multiple styles is that people tend to make it their own after a while whereas at first it is sort of like a factory assembly line. LOL Same goes for Bruce too. I know some high level wing chun people who view JKD simply as Bruce's interpretation of WC.

As it should be. He was a visionary, and brought many people to the arts, but he was by no means original.

 

[wingchun100]

As it should be. He was a visionary, and brought many people to the arts, but he was by no means original.

Well, his philosophies may not have been original (a lot of them are derived from Taoism and Buddhism), but I never heard of anyone before him who expressed the idea of freeing yourself from styles. I think every high-level martial artist does this, whether your chosen art is wing chun, TKD, karate, or whatever.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Keep in mind Bruce did not learn all of wing chun, nor did he learn all of ANY other style out there. What I have noticed across multiple styles is that people tend to make it their own after a while whereas at first it is sort of like a factory assembly line. LOL Same goes for Bruce too. I know some high level wing chun people who view JKD simply as Bruce's interpretation of WC.

Depending on who you talk to...or believe.... Jun Fan Gong Fu was what Bruce first started teaching and he latter changed that by adding a lot ot it and came up with Jeet Kune Do.

The short time I trained JKD, I did little JKD and a lot of Jun Fan. (the guy that was the teacher fully believe you needed a base in Wing Chun and/or Jun Fan before going onto his JKD). From that all to short exposure to JF I labeled it "Wing Chun on Steroids" because it had a mot of similarities but it seemed much more aggressive. The JKD stuff has not as much in common with Wing Chun as JF but you could still see the Wing Chun coming through in places

 

[wingchun100]

Depending on who you talk to...or believe.... Jun Fan Gong Fu was what Bruce first started teaching and he latter changed that by adding a lot ot it and came up with Jeet Kune Do.

The short time I trained JKD, I did little JKD and a lot of Jun Fan. (the guy that was the teacher fully believe you needed a base in Wing Chun and/or Jun Fan before going onto his JKD). From that all to short exposure to JF I labeled it "Wing Chun on Steroids" because it had a mot of similarities but it seemed much more aggressive. The JKD stuff has not as much in common with Wing Chun as JF but you could still see the Wing Chun coming through in places

Absolutely. Center line theory, knuckles vertical instead of horizontal during the punch, maximum impact with minimal effort, and of course the inclusion of chi sao. And that is all I could think of off the top of my head.