"No Outside Game," or Another Thread About Hybrid Arts

[Juany118]

That's a bit of a stretch. If we're talking about "telegraphing", as in reading that the punch is going to happen... in the context of Wing Chun it's very hard to see a proper punch coming from any stance. Especially if the shoulders are square to the opponent as they should be.

Thanks for sharing the video. Great resource!

In terms of other punches WC telegraph's less but it still does. The trick is this. In general self defense and Combatives they tell you to watch the shoulders and hips. In my WC they tell us to watch elbows and knees. There is still less telegraphing there even then but it's still there, at least in my experience.

As an example, footwork is very important to the punch. Even before I see tell tale movement at the elbow, in watching the knees you can usually see movement there that indicates the footwork portion. In my experience when people think of telegraphing they hop immediately to picturing Western Boxing. There it's the head and shoulders that usually tell the tale. Other portions of the body however can give indications as well though.

 

[Juany118]

Hazardi showed up within a week of Guy being banned. Hazardi is a WSLVT guy that has used many of the same arguments and said many of the same things that Guy has in the past. Harardi has the same posting and discussion style as Guy. Now all that may be a coincidence, but you have to admit that it is one heck of a coincidence! Now, what evidence to you have that I murder puppies?

This is pretty much my take atm. The only difference not only in terms of arguments but in the actual sentence structures and cadence is that after being very "guy like" he occassionally says something vaguely polite.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If you punch from a fighting stance, you are already telegraphed your punch. As far as I know, only the Zimen system trains how to punch from "hands drop next to the knees" position. The

- hand goes first,
- elbow chases the hand,
- shoulder chases the elbow,
- the body chases the shoulder.

In the following clip, you can see his hand doesn't punch from the

- waist (as long fist), or
- high chest (as WC).

Most strikes come from "hand drop below the knee" position. Since the Zimen system has no "fighting stance". It's the only CMA style that I know that has the minimum telegraphing during striking.

高安字门老八法残字_视频在线观看 - 56.com

That video produces an error in what I assume is Mandarin. I'd love to see it.

 

[Juany118]

If you punch from a fighting stance, you are already telegraphed your punch. As far as I know, only the Zimen system trains how to punch from "hands drop next to the knees" position. The

- hand goes first,
- elbow chases the hand,
- shoulder chases the elbow,
- the body chases the shoulder.

In the following clip, you can see his hand doesn't punch from the

- waist (as long fist), or
- high chest (as WC).

Most strikes come from "hand drop below the knee" position. Since the Zimen system has no "fighting stance". It's the only CMA style that I know that has the minimum telegraphing during striking.

高安字门老八法残字_视频在线观看 - 56.com

I think when he speaks of telegraphing he means your stereotypical Western Boxing telegraph where the shoulder and/or head can telegraph that the punch is coming. However if you look at different areas of the body, you can still see indications the punch is coming. Now they tend to be more subtle, but the signs are there.

 

[Juany118]

Interesting take. With a good understanding of Wing Chun, the "outside game" isn't a real issue. IMHO, there's no need to and separate the "zones" or "gates" etc.. into areas in which Wing Chun is effective or not. Our job as practitioners is to make the system work for us. If a Wing Chun practitioner has an issue with what do when "outside", then they should try and find the answers within the system.

Guro Dan once talked about the subject in regards to Bruce Lee's attitude towards Wing Chun in general. Bruce was not as good with the system as some of his classmates, such as Hawkins Cheung for instance, so Bruce liked to stay outside because he was not as comfortable on the inside.

That could well be part of the issue (your last point.) That said I spar with people who study different arts and when you do that you see how simply trying to minimize the weakness of a single system and make what is work for you is dangerous. If I didn't have a grappling back ground more than once I would have found myself in a spot of bother with the BJJ guy I work and spar with. The only real defense against a takedown in WC is to pummel the guy hard enough that he can't get a grip. Thing is WC has you doing that pummeling inside a range where grappling and takedowns are easily initiated. So in short your only ground fighting defense amounts to "shock and awe" and that imo is something that is risky to rely on. Now he is definitely better at grappling than I am but my previous experience is enough that, when combined with my WC, I can avoid "his game" and keep playing "mine"

On the flip side I am actually looking for a Muay Thai guy to spar with at this point because of my sparring with my brother in law to test something regarding long range. My bro in law is a TKD guy. He has no real inside game so once I get inside I am in control. A Muay Thai guy though has a stand up inside game as well as outside. I suspect my degree of control in stand up"inside" will be far less with a Muay Thai guy (or gal). I would be a fool to stay outside against the much deeper outside/kicking game of Muay Thai so if I find such a person it will be interesting to find out if my stand up inside game is deep enough that it still maintains the initiative or if I am forced to go to takedowns, which my WC has. If that doesn't work do I need to go full on grappling/ground game?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

where the shoulder and/or head can telegraph that the punch is coming.

When the 8 steps preying mantis master Wei Shao-Tang taught his class in the new park in Taipei, Taiwan back in 1980, one day 2 Zimen guys visited him.

- One Zimen guy bowed to him,
- Stepped in,
- Punched on Wei's chest, and
- Stepped back,

before Wei could even raise his arm to block that punch. The whole attack had no "telegraph". The "punch" and "bow" were integrated into 1 move. The punch started from both hands dropped next to the knees. That challenge made the Zimen system very famous in "speed" in Taiwan (the preying mantis system is famous in "speed"). That was why it pulled me into the Zimen system and caused a lot of problems (but that will be another story).

 

[drop bear]

If you punch from a fighting stance, you are already telegraphed your punch. As far as I know, only the Zimen system trains how to punch from "hands drop next to the knees" position. The

- hand goes first,
- elbow chases the hand,
- shoulder chases the elbow,
- the body chases the shoulder.

In the following clip, you can see his hand doesn't punch from the

- waist (as long fist), or
- high chest (as WC).

Most strikes come from "hand drop below the knee" position. Since the Zimen system has no "fighting stance". It's the only CMA style that I know that has the minimum telegraphing during striking.

高安字门老八法残字_视频在线观看 - 56.com

There is a sword fighting style of striking that goes hand then body. And would be considered a non telegraphed punch.

I know some guys who have played around with the concept.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

There is a sword fighting style of striking that goes hand then body. And would be considered a non telegraphed punch.

I know some guys who have played around with the concept.

That's the "speed first, power later" approach. It's the only way that you can kill a mosquito when it flies in front of your. If you use "leg push body, body push arm" method, you will never be able to get that mosquito.

One time I pushed my shopping cart in parking lot. When I opened my trunk, the shopping cart slide away, I used this method to grab on that shopping cart before it could hit on somebody's car. I could felt my body was stretched forward big time.

 

[Juany118]

There is a sword fighting style of striking that goes hand then body. And would be considered a non telegraphed punch.

I know some guys who have played around with the concept.

Just want to clarify, do you mean movement focus of the sword wielding limb or target priority for the blade?

 

[Juany118]

When the 8 steps preying mantis master Wei Shao-Tang taught his class in the new park in Taipei, Taiwan back in 1980, one day 2 Zimen guys visited him.

- One Zimen guy bowed to him,
- Stepped in,
- Punched on Wei's chest, and
- Stepped back,

before Wei could even raise his arm to block that punch. The whole attack had no "telegraph". The "punch" and "bow" were integrated into 1 move. The punch started from both hands dropped next to the knees. That challenge made the Zimen system very famous in "speed" in Taiwan (the preying mantis system is famous in "speed"). That was why it pulled me into the Zimen system and caused a lot of problems (but that will be another story).

Not saying the punch was not telegraphed, but without seeing it myself I could think of the following reasons why it might appear so at first blush.

1. I know few who would expect someone to integrate a bow with a strike. So the appearance of a lack of telegraphing could be a result of surprise rather than the absence of observable movement.

2. Depending on your position relative to the striker and the relationship between their how and the strike, some cues could be concealed by the torso that would be visible from a different perspective.

3. Sometimes the cues are there, you know the strike is coming, so it was telegraphed BUT, action vs reaction being what they are, the strike was too quick to permit a proper reaction.

4. A combination of any of the above.

I'll use, as an example of a combination of number 2 and 1 a kick that exists in Hung Gar and Wing Chun. It sometimes gets called, romantically, the shadowless kick. What makes the kick appear untelegraphed involves a few things but the biggies are speed and distraction. I had a Hung Gar guy tell me that basically you use a distraction from the hands, a grapple, feint etc., that causes the opponent to look up and then you kick low, which contributes to how quickly it hits after launch.

WC is similar. You distract. Maybe a bil sau towards the eyes, a tempo or facing change that appears to be a set up for a different attack etc swapping to your strong side being the Wu hand often makes people think a punch is inc in my experience, especially if followed by a feint... then you kick, often simultaneously with the feint.

In either case if you were looking for the kick you would have seen it coming, a change in knee or foot orientation etc, but the distraction either completely masked it or, due to the speed of the kick, the distraction delayed your realization that the kick was coming to the point you couldn't react in time. In the end though the signs were still there, you were just tricked so you missed em.

 

[drop bear]

Just want to clarify, do you mean movement focus of the sword wielding limb or target priority for the blade?

Sword moves first then the body moves. There is a video of it out there but i am on my phone and can't look for it.

Be good for knife though.

 

[Juany118]

Sword moves first then the body moves. There is a video of it out there but i am on my phone and can't look for it.

Be good for knife though.

Gotcha. Just asked because a principle of the Kali I study is "defang the snake" so you may target the hand before the body.

You are right though, it can be very useful with a knife, especially smaller blades where the amount of force you put behind the very sharp edge doesn't matter as much. A 3 inch blade can only cut or puncture so deep and if it hits bone there isn't much it's going to do because the short length provides very little leverage.

 

[Dylan9d]

Hazardi showed up within a week of Guy being banned. Hazardi is a WSLVT guy that has used many of the same arguments and said many of the same things that Guy has in the past. Harardi has the same posting and discussion style as Guy. Now all that may be a coincidence, but you have to admit that it is one heck of a coincidence! Now, what evidence to you have that I murder puppies?

And I had a private convo with the guy and it seems he is using Google Translate for his Dutch which is weird because he said he is from Holland and his teacher is Gert Jan Ketelaar for the last 13 years. You can't tell me that even if you only live 13 years in Holland your Dutch is that bad......

 

[Juany118]

And I had a private convo with the guy and it seems he is using Google Translate for his Dutch which is weird because he said he is from Holland and his teacher is Gert Jan Ketelaar for the last 13 years. You can't tell me that even if you only live 13 years in Holland your Dutch is that bad......

That is weird. Especially since if I remember right in this thread he said English is his second language. So my assumption, based on the posts, was that he was Dutch. Curiouser and curiouser.

I know it's not a sure thing in this day and age but I wonder if they did an IP ban on a previously banned account if this current one would still be able to post?

 

[Hazardi172]

And I had a private convo with the guy and it seems he is using Google Translate for his Dutch which is weird because he said he is from Holland and his teacher is Gert Jan Ketelaar for the last 13 years. You can't tell me that even if you only live 13 years in Holland your Dutch is that bad......

As I said in private convo, I am an immigrant. Reading and writing in Dutch not a strong point for me

 

[Dylan9d]

As I said in private convo, I am an immigrant. Reading and writing in Dutch not a strong point for me

And you are in Holland for 13 years? wow....

 

[Hazardi172]

And you are in Holland for 13 years? wow....

Longer than 13! How you think I learn it?

And how is your Kurdish?

 

[Hazardi172]

I may


I may as well mention this regardless of where i stand on the rest of the discussion. Because it is just irritating me.

This tact you are taking is kind of insane.

You have as much evidence that this poster is guy as i do that you murder puppies.

You cant accuse people of something that you have no evidence of. You are using a cheap tactic.

Thanks for your balanced point of view

 

[Hazardi172]

That's a bit of a stretch. If we're talking about "telegraphing", as in reading that the punch is going to happen... in the context of Wing Chun it's very hard to see a proper punch coming from any stance. Especially if the shoulders are square to the opponent as they should be.

Thanks for sharing the video. Great resource!

Good post again!

 

[Hazardi172]

Rubbish.

It is true, WSL VT punching is very hard to predict. Where do you live, maybe can suggest someone you could train with to try it out?