"No Outside Game," or Another Thread About Hybrid Arts

[Hazardi172]

I disagree with that. The leg is longer than the arm, so there's a distance at which a step and leg will out-reach a step and arm. You won't find me kicking at that distance much, but someone from Tae Kwon Do absolutely will, as likely will someone from most styles of Karate. It's one of the strengths of a kick that it can be executed from outside punching distance.

I think you would be quite surprised at the distance we can step and punch in WSL VT

 

[Hazardi172]

Ah! Okay, I think you did say it had to be a step (or I'm just mis-remembering), but it makes sense that you can carry that same power shift with other footwork when there's no room for the step. Any chance you're aware of a video that shows this other footwork? I'm starting to get a better picture of how the punch you're describing works.

We use linear momentum learned in the pole form for punching at a distance, angular momentum closer.

 

[KPM]

Footwork doesn't necessarily have to be stepping

Here is another word of advice to make you seem less like Guy. Actually answer questions asked directly of you rather than giving vague responses that tell nothing.

 

[KPM]

I think you would be quite surprised at the distance we can step and punch in WSL VT

And a good kicker can land a kick from quite a distance as well! But hey, if you don't want to acknowledge what everyone else here is trying to explain to you in terms of distance and ranges, that's Ok by me!

 

[Hazardi172]

Here is another word of advice to make you seem less like Guy. Actually answer questions asked directly of you rather than giving vague responses that tell nothing.

Please see the post directly above yours for more detail! I was trying to keep up with postings from GPseymour which were coming very fast

I don't have the advantage of knowing your friend Guy and so any idea of appearing similar is lost on me I am afraid

 

[Hazardi172]

And a good kicker can land a kick from quite a distance as well! But hey, if you don't want to acknowledge what everyone else here is trying to explain to you in terms of distance and ranges, that's Ok by me!

Okay, glad we can agree to disagree

 

[Transk53]

We use linear momentum learned in the pole form for punching at a distance, angular momentum closer.

Sorry I am bit confused here. Are you saying that on the centre line delivering the punch, then rotate at the point of contact?

 

[Hazardi172]

Sorry I am bit confused here. Are you saying that on the centre line delivering the punch, then rotate at the point of contact?

Sorry, I don't know what you mean? Can you explain further?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think you would be quite surprised at the distance we can step and punch in WSL VT

It's the same distance anyone can step and punch: the longest structured step you can take, plus the length of your arm (at the appropriate extension for your punch). My point is that the same step distance can be paired with a kick. Since the leg is longer than the arm, the step-kick has a bit more range than the step-punch.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

We use linear momentum learned in the pole form for punching at a distance, angular momentum closer.

Ah! Again a bit of different semantics, as I'd refer to those as two different punches. That's only because I'd classify them by the principle of the momentum behind them. Obviously, since you guys classify them as the same punch, they must be pretty much the same other than that difference.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Please see the post directly above yours for more detail! I was trying to keep up with postings from GPseymour which were coming very fast

I don't have the advantage of knowing your friend Guy and so any idea of appearing similar is lost on me I am afraid

As you can see, there's a reason I have "top poster of the month" (which I usually refer to as "top postwhore of the month"). I tend to respond in short snippets as if we were actually having a conversation. Unfortunately, it breaks up the conversation a bit in forums. Thanks for keeping up!

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

No, the momentum from the footwork is an essential part of the punch in VT

If you are close enough to land a kick then you are also close enough to land punch

Do you have any WC clip that shows footwork training?

Leg is longer than the arm. This is why there is "kicking range" and "punching range".

All CMA styles emphasize on footwork. Some CMA systems use principle such as:

"You may not detect any opening on your opponent. You still keep moving and moving. When you are moving, soon or later, you will find opportunity to attack."

I have not seen this "principle" used in the WC system yet. I also have not seen the following footwork trained in the WC system.

When you train the form in the following clip, it will take you half of the basketball field to complete. This is what I'll call "emphasize on footwork training". IMO, compare to other CMA systems, WC doesn't emphasize footwork enough. Instead of moving around, WC guards his own space very well.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

but you appear to have posted a clip showing a lot of training drills. I don't see what relevance these have to this discussion?

I know you did not address this to me. But if we are talking about WC "outside game", we have to compare the "outside game" used by other CMA systems as well. We cannot just close our WC door and discuss among ourselves. May be in your mind that WC system has enough "outside game". But from other CMA point of view, the WC "outside game" is far from enough.

IMO, it's better to put up clips as examples, otherwise the discussion is just too "abstract".

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If you are two steps away, what then?

There are

- 1 step 1 punch,
- 1 step 2 punches,
- 1 step 3 punches,
- ...

There are also

- 2 steps 1 punch,
- 3 steps 1 punch (running punch),
- ...

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I had a problem with one of my plugins and with the staging setup, and had to revert to a standard theme for now. I need to either figure out what that plugin doesn't like about your theme (happens sometimes even with commercial themes), or figure out how to recreate that design in the theme I'm using. The site looks decent, but has a ways to go, yet.

 

[Hazardi172]

It's the same distance anyone can step and punch: the longest structured step you can take, plus the length of your arm (at the appropriate extension for your punch). My point is that the same step distance can be paired with a kick. Since the leg is longer than the arm, the step-kick has a bit more range than the step-punch.

It is quite possible to do more than 1 step

 

[Transk53]

It is quite possible to do more than 1 step

Also possible to do Zumba and swing your arms.

 

[Hazardi172]

Do you have any WC clip that shows footwork training?

Leg is longer than the arm. This is why there is "kicking range" and "punching range".

All CMA styles emphasize on footwork. Some CMA systems use principle such as:

"You may not detect any opening on your opponent. You still keep moving and moving. When you are moving, soon or later, you will find opportunity to attack."

I have not seen this "principle" used in the WC system yet. I also have not seen the following footwork trained in the WC system.

When you train the form in the following clip, it will take you half of the basketball field to complete. This is what I'll call "emphasize on footwork training". IMO, compare to other CMA systems, WC doesn't emphasize footwork enough. Instead of moving around, WC guards his own space very well.

I don't have any clip of VT stepping training. We almost always do tui ma seung ma drills which is stepping with force (drill for power generation and imparting of momentum), plus isolated stepping drills (drill for imprinting of stepping pattern). We do these all of the time, it is a feature of every class.

 

[Hazardi172]

Also possible to do Zumba and swing your arms.

Not sure what Zumba is?

 

[drop bear]

To clarify the semantics on this, I'd suggest an edit to your second sentence: "If you are close enough to kick, you are close enough to step in and punch." I realize the step is part of the punching dynamics (it is in NGA, as well), but the actual punch cannot be executed if your step only carries you into the edge of kicking range. In fact, if we include the step in the kick (which also often happens), then it is no longer true that we can punch anywhere we can kick. A long step and long kick will hit from further away than a long step and punch.

If you are discussing ranges,saftey distances and timing. The step is considered a separate move.

This is because if they have time to step. Then you have time to step.

This all effects what you can do defensively at what range. Even simple things like when to get your hands up. But people who are really good at making that range work can create really good opportunities for counter striking.

As far as punching vs kicking.

Take a bigger step.