"No Outside Game," or Another Thread About Hybrid Arts

[Hazardi172]

If you are discussing ranges,saftey distances and timing. The step is considered a separate move.

This is because if they have time to step. Then you have time to step.

This all effects what you can do defensively at what range. Even simple things like when to get your hands up. But people who are really good at making that range work can create really good opportunities for counter striking.

As far as punching vs kicking.

Take a bigger step.

Take a big step I agree!

But step not considered a separate move in WSL VT- is an integral part of the punch. Movement very important

 

[Transk53]

Not sure what Zumba is?

Said it jest It is the fitness dance craze which actually is a good cardio workout, plus also a good coordination excercise. What ever art anybody practices, also good to have a sideline to aid keeping sharp.

 

[geezer]

OK -- i think I get Hazardi's point that the step/body movement and punch are united...that they are essentially one and the same if your punch is to be more than just "arm-power". I learned the same concept in our WC/VT and in Latosa Escrima as well -- although the mechanics in Escrima are very different. I will disagree with Hazardi on the issue of range, however.

There are limiting factors of reach and how far you can step. These limitations are not the same for all individuals and all styles. Tall, lanky individuals who are athletically gifted can usually cover more ground than shorter limbed, heavier individuals. And there is the issue of long range weapons vs. short range weapons. Legs are longer than arms, and some kicks from other systems are much more extended than anything I've seen in VT/WC/WT. All this means that all fighting arts. (including WSL-VT) must consider distance!

If Hazardi disagrees, that's fine. ...but this is my understanding.

BTW, Hazardi --no worries about your English. I spent a few weeks in the Netherlands as a youth in the early 1970s, and even back then I found that many Dutch folk spoke better English than a good many Americans! Your English is fine, just try to keep an open mind about what others may have experienced. Let's not get bogged-down in battling over words when we may actually not be so very far apart in what we are saying. The poster "Guy," your WSL-VT predecessor on this forum, played such word games deliberately and made a lot of enemies here out of people who otherwise have a lot of respect for the WSL-VT lineage. I'd hate to see that happen again!

 

[Hazardi172]

OK -- i think I get Hazardi's point that the step/body movement and punch are united...that they are essentially one and the same if your punch is to be more than just "arm-power". I learned the same concept in our WC/VT and in Latosa Escrima as well -- although the mechanics in Escrima are very different. I will disagree with Hazardi on the issue of range, however.

There are limiting factors of reach and how far you can step. These limitations are not the same for all individuals and all styles. Tall, lanky individuals who are athletically gifted can usually cover more ground than shorter limbed, heavier individuals. And there is the issue of long range weapons vs. short range weapons. Legs are longer than arms, and some kicks from other systems are much more extended than anything I've seen in VT/WC/WT. All this means that all fighting arts. (including WSL-VT) must consider distance!

If Hazardi disagrees, that's fine. ...but this is my understanding.

I don't disagree, but would add that more than 1 step is possible!

BTW, Hazardi --no worries about your English. I spent a few weeks in the Netherlands as a youth in the early 1970s, and even back then I found that many Dutch folk spoke better English than a good many Americans! Your English is fine, just try to keep an open mind about what others may have experienced. Let's not get bogged-down in battling over words when we may actually not be so very far apart in what we are saying. The poster "Guy," your WSL-VT predecessor on this forum, played such word games deliberately and made a lot of enemies here out of people who otherwise have a lot of respect for the WSL-VT lineage. I'd hate to see that happen again!

Very kind your opinion on my English. I have no desire to make enemies here, just want to represent WSL VT

 

[Hazardi172]

Said it jest It is the fitness dance craze which actually is a good cardio workout, plus also a good coordination excercise. What ever art anybody practices, also good to have a sideline to aid keeping sharp.

Okay, groet!

 

[wingchun100]

I have totally lost track of where this thread went. Then again, having ignored members is probably why I don't understand the sudden reference to Zumba. lol

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It is quite possible to do more than 1 step

As it is with the kick. That's my point. You can use the same number of steps whether you are punching or kicking, so the difference in range is the difference in the reach of the limb. The hands are quicker and more stable, the legs are longer and often more powerful.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I have totally lost track of where this thread went. Then again, having ignored members is probably why I don't understand the sudden reference to Zumba. lol

No, the Zumba reference is quite sudden. Transk was having some fun, I think.

 

[Juany118]

The punch without the foorwork is not the VT punch. Footwork required

That is virtually a generic WC/VT principle in my experience, not WSLVT only.

In WSL VT the punch and kick land from the same range. We don't think "now we are in kicking range, we must kick, not we are closer we must punch, now closer still we must initiate the Lap Sau drill". Mostly we are attacking with punches from any and all ranges

You wing chun may be different and that's ok with me

I'll try again. First my point was that it is a biological fact that a leg is longer than an arm. Ergo, in theory, a kick can land before a punch can. Yes many WC forms only use low kicks but there was a reason I noted the issue. "Sweet spots" transcend any particular system.

A "sweet spot" is not tied to a specific punch, nor is it the only spot or required spot to fight in. All fighting systems that are worth a darn have to trained to fight with the flow of the fight. However from a purely style neutral, and analytical, point of view every fighting style has a place to fight that is "optimal" for the style in question. My brother in law is a TKD guy. TKD has punches, even some basic locks and takedowns in close but it's strength is the powerful kicks so it's optimal spot is kicking range. I work with a BJJ guy. His school actually adds a bit more striking than some others (the instructor is also a Muay Thai guy) but still my co-worker's optimal space is grappling and going to the ground.
The same applies to WC/VT. As you say where you can punch is also where you can kick. This range, where we start to have the ability to use all of our tools, is our optimal range.

That is all a "sweet spot" is. Its not a fixed point where one must fight. Fighting is a dynamic encounter where you have to be able to flow in response to every changing circumstances. The "sweet spot" is simply the place of maximum performance.

There is no such sweet spot in WSL VT due to the nature of the punch. Other punches may differ

I understand the nature of the WSLVT punch. Everything you have described with regards to generating maximum power is consistent with my current and former WC. I will acknowledge however that the major focus on the punch is certainly different than my currebt WC because we see the punch as a useful tool and the first you start with but, eventually, we tend to prefer palm strikes for a number of reasons (mostly biological, not strategic, in nature).

Thing is, even if I didn't understand the WSLVT punch at all no functional punch can violate biomechanical laws or the laws of physics. If you get too close, a straight punch, regardless of the source of power, has less strength. Too far away, even if you can connect, the same. Force = mass * acceleration.

The footwork and punch technique determines how you get the mass behind the punch and it's optimal acceleration. Too close and first you don't get maximum acceleration (as that is a factor of distance traveled. Closer still and the effective mass is also reduced due to restricted footwork. This is where I say "thank God for knees and elbows."

To far and you risk overextending your punch. This both reduced the effective mass and the velocity as you are on the deceleration side of the velocity curve.

The "sweet spot" for every punch, especially a straight punch, is that place where your footwork and technique allows for the maximum application of effective mass and the optimal extension of the arm for maximum velocity. Thats physics and biomechanics. It just so happens that because of the preferred kicking method in WC/VT this spot for maximum punch effectiveness is also a place where you can also kick, some styles trap, etc.

 

[Juany118]

I know you did not address this to me. But if we are talking about WC "outside game", we have to compare the "outside game" used by other CMA systems as well. We cannot just close our WC door and discuss among ourselves. May be in your mind that WC system has enough "outside game". But from other CMA point of view, the WC "outside game" is far from enough.

IMO, it's better to put up clips as examples, otherwise the discussion is just too "abstract".

The OP did eventually say that it was more a devil's advocate kinda thing though.

That said, indeed other CMAs have a "deeper" outside game. I see that when I stop into the local Tien Shan Pai school on patrol. That said we have to look at each "game" as part of a hole imo. Earlier I posted various kicks and even what some may even call a "long punch" from Sifu Gary Lam. "No Outside Game," or Another Thread About Hybrid Arts So the game is there in the two WC forms I have studied.

The reason others are deeper (and longer) I think has to do with the overall idea of WC/VT. In WC the ideal position is to be able to attack and defend simultaneously with both hands (for among other reasons), so a more sideways stance that may provide for slightly longer range is something to be avoided. So the "outside game" exists for when you find yourself forced there to get back into where you are strongest. It is there, for a specific purpose.

IMO, if you are looking to fill a gap, as the OP suggests your first step is to look at your entire system in a holistic manner and see where the biggest gap is. That is why I usually suggest, if someone is looking to add to their WC/VT I suggest an art with a deeper grappling game. It doesn't have to be as grappling specific as say Judo and Aikido etc. I think those would work well if you knew them before you came to WC. If however you started in WC I would suggest something like this which exists in a number of FMA styles in one shape or another.

The general body mechanics, the basic practical concepts etc are not dissimilar to WC, though a little adaptation would be required (the specific punching method and body structure is obviously different but it's like looking at (and to me feels like) cousins vs aliens) and so you have what amounts to a ready made "plug in" transition from striking to full on grappling. At least in my experience.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

In WC the ideal position is to be able to attack and defend simultaneously with both hands (for among other reasons), so a more sideways stance that may provide for slightly longer range is something to be avoided.

This is the main issue of this discussion. If you want to

- be able to punch your opponent with both hands, you can't have maximum reach with one long arm and one short arm.
- have the maximum reach with one hand, you can't reach your opponent with the other short hand.

IMO, the ability to be able to switch from one mode into another mode and back is important. Most WC guys only know one mode. Most long fist guy also only know one mode. This is why the "cross training" is a must.

 

[Juany118]

This is the main issue of this discussion. If you want to

- be able to punch your opponent with both hands, you can't have maximum reach with one long arm and one short arm.
- have the maximum reach with one hand, you can't reach your opponent with the other short hand.

IMO, the ability to be able to switch from one mode into another mode and back is important.

I am not saying that isn't important, it's a matter of prioritization. Most people who study TMA's in my experience have "day jobs". With the kind of time constraints that brings about, again just my opinion, you look at your art and say "this could be a little better, that a little better too BUT here I have something that needs to be A LOT better", it's the later I wish to focus on. Is that a bit anal retentive? Yepper, it's just how I am wired.

 

[Hazardi172]

As it is with the kick. That's my point. You can use the same number of steps whether you are punching or kicking, so the difference in range is the difference in the reach of the limb. The hands are quicker and more stable, the legs are longer and often more powerful.

Stepping and kicking is slower than stepping and punching, and step size is limited with kicking compared to punching. There is no difference in range in my experience, and punching with a step is faster

 

[Hazardi172]

That is virtually a generic WC/VT principle in my experience, not WSLVT only.

First my point was that it is a biological fact that a leg is longer than an arm. Ergo, in theory, a kick can land before a punch can.

A punch is not the arm motion, it is the entire motion including the footwork

That is all a "sweet spot" is. Its not a fixed point where one must fight. Fighting is a dynamic encounter where you have to be able to flow in response to every changing circumstances. The "sweet spot" is simply the place of maximum performance

Because we can punch from the range that you feel is a range for kicking only, there is no "sweet spot" in WSL VT punching

Thing is, even if I didn't understand the WSLVT punch at all no functional punch can violate biomechanical laws or the laws of physics. If you get too close, a straight punch, regardless of the source of power, has less strength. Too far away, even if you can connect, the same. Force = mass * acceleration.

The footwork and punch technique determines how you get the mass behind the punch and it's optimal acceleration.

Too close and first you don't get maximum acceleration (as that is a factor of distance traveled. Closer still and the effective mass is also reduced due to restricted footwork. This is where I say "thank God for knees and elbows."

Thanks for the physics lesson, but sounds a bit like you are confused between momentum, speed and acceleration in the WSL VT punch! Also sounds like you didn't take account of how momentum is generated at closer distances in WSL VT

If it works this way in your wing chun then that's ok with me, but sounds wrong for WSL VT

The "sweet spot" for every punch, especially a straight punch, is that place where your footwork and technique allows for the maximum application of effective mass and the optimal extension of the arm for maximum velocity. Thats physics and biomechanics. It just so happens that because of the preferred kicking method in WC/VT this spot for maximum punch effectiveness is also a place where you can also kick, some styles trap, etc.

We can punch from any effective distance in fighting. There is no "sweet spot" in WSL VT

 

[Juany118]

A punch is not the arm motion, it is the entire motion including the footwork



Because we can punch from the range that you feel is a range for kicking only, there is no "sweet spot" in WSL VT punching



Thanks for the physics lesson, but sounds a bit like you are confused between momentum, speed and acceleration in the WSL VT punch! Also sounds like you didn't take account of how momentum is generated at closer distances in WSL VT

If it works this way in your wing chun then that's ok with me, but sounds wrong for WSL VT



We can punch from any effective distance in fighting. There is no "sweet spot" in WSL VT

First of course footwork is part of making a punch...Even Western Boxing does this, two parts, making a whole. To make this sound like it is WSLVT exclusive is wrong in the extreme.

As for you part about confusion...Sorry not confused at all. The power/strength of any strike is a result of the following equation... F=M*V. Unless WSLVT is Harry Potter magic, which I know it is not, it obeys the same rules.

The only difference between various martial arts is how the biomechanics make the equation work, but the equation remains and I even explained how it applies specifically to a WSLVT punch. Sifu Gary Lam did not reinvent that punch in what he teaches. The only thing he may have changed (since he is the only student of WSL whose WC/VT I have studied), in terms of the punch, is to do away with what I personally term "special sauce" dogma. There is no "special sauce". There is physics and biomechanics. The reason why I first went to WSLVT, via Sifu Gary is because WSL called his VT a "Science" and not an art. If however you wish to believe your WC/VT doesnt follow science, and is instead an esoteric art of some sort, well, good luck to you.

 

[Hazardi172]

As for you part about confusion...Sorry not confused at all. The power/strength of any strike is a result of the following equation... F=M*V. Unless WSLVT is Harry Potter magic, which I know it is not, it obeys the same rules

As I said my friend, please do spare me the amateur physics lesson. It is just going to be embarrassing (you have your equation wrong above for example, plus are talking about the wrong thing).

The only difference between various martial arts is how the biomechanics make the equation work, but the equation remains and I even explained how it applies specifically to a WSLVT punch.

You haven't said anything that I recognise in terms of the WSL VT punch

Sifu Gary Lam did not reinvent that punch in what he teaches. The only thing he may have changed (since he is the only student of WSL whose WC/VT I have studied), in terms of the punch, is to do away with what I personally term "special sauce" dogma. There is no "special sauce". There is physics and biomechanics. The reason why I first went to WSLVT, via Sifu Gary is because WSL called his VT a "Science" and not an art. If however you wish to believe your WC/VT doesnt follow science, and is instead an esoteric art of some sort, well, good luck to you.

Gary Lam wing chun is Gary Lam's, not WSL's. For how long did you study with Gary Lam?

 

[Juany118]

As I said my friend, please do spare me the amateur physics lesson. It is just going to be embarrassing (you have your equation wrong above for example, plus are talking about the wrong thing).



You haven't said anything that I recognise in terms of the WSL VT punch



Gary Lam wing chun is Gary Lam's, not WSL's. For how long did you study with Gary Lam?

You just confirmed a suspicion with the first response. Physics is physics. That said I mean really trying to make it look like a student of WSL would reinvent the wheel, I mean the punch. There really is no point in debating under those circumstances since science can never defeat heart felt dogma. Kinda disappointing really.

 

[Hazardi172]

You just confirmed a suspicion with the first response. Physics is physics. That said I mean really trying to make it look like a student of WSL would reinvent the wheel, I mean the punch. There really is no point in debating under those circumstances since science can never defeat heart felt dogma. Kinda disappointing really.

Your last post said F = M x V

This is not correct. Plus you are trying to use the wrong equation I think

 

[drop bear]

You just confirmed a suspicion with the first response. Physics is physics. That said I mean really trying to make it look like a student of WSL would reinvent the wheel, I mean the punch. There really is no point in debating under those circumstances since science can never defeat heart felt dogma. Kinda disappointing really.

Yeah but bad physics is also bad physics. And at best you judge punching by pounds per square inch not force. And even then that is not the whole story.

Whether or not the punch works or not is a different story.

 

[drop bear]

Take a big step I agree!

But step not considered a separate move in WSL VT- is an integral part of the punch. Movement very important

You cant take a step every time you punch. If you did and were in close throwing combinations you would look like you were tap dancing.

From what I understand the idea is instead of reaching for the target. You walk into position. And then throw. Or throw at the same time, whatever.

I do bits of both but I have more than one method I may be applying at any given time.

Which is the whole point of hybridization in the first place.