"No Outside Game," or Another Thread About Hybrid Arts

[Gerry Seymour]

As to your first point you are focusing myopically on the things other forms of WC do that yours do not at that range. The term "trapping" is only used as a reference for the range. Can you trap there? Yes. Can you initiate grappling there? Also yes. This is not the point of the range however. The point is at that range you can use every tool in the arsenal. You can kick to the lower extremities, knee, elbow and punch. Also with the closer range of the "picture perfect" WSLVT punch, even PB, that appears to be the ideal range. If you watch the following montage, more often than not the range I speak of is the range PB is working to get to. Over and over again PB has also referred to the ideal of the short range involved in the VT punch, which when we see the videos of him is what some call "trapping range".

As I said before the WC world doesn't use terms like "trapping" range. However every WC system I have seen recognizes the significance of this "sweet spot" and even if you can't get there due to circumstances, it is still the sweet spot. In terms of simple training I think the best example is the mook jong. It has three main purposes, in my experience. The correct use of power and force, and synchronicity of action and the quickest route to a target. The fact the mook is rigid, as we perform the drills, also forces us to maintain structure (Newton's laws and all of that.) The thing is what range are you at where you can do all these things?

That is the telling point, regardless of everything else. If the majority of drills you do are in a specific space/range, those drills are telling you something about where your sweet spot is.

My hope is that the fact I used a non-WC term to describe the positioning of the sweet spot is causing the apparent confusion.

I think it's probably a useful term to use within WC (though not on a regular basis - perhaps special training sessions or seminars?) to highlight what else you are exposed to at that range. In NGA, we don't clinch much, but I'll sometimes refer to "clinching range" to remind students that they can be clinched there if the attacker has clinching experience, which is doubleplus ungood.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

No, the momentum from the footwork is an essential part of the punch in VT



If you are close enough to land a kick then you are also close enough to land punch

To clarify the semantics on this, I'd suggest an edit to your second sentence: "If you are close enough to kick, you are close enough to step in and punch." I realize the step is part of the punching dynamics (it is in NGA, as well), but the actual punch cannot be executed if your step only carries you into the edge of kicking range. In fact, if we include the step in the kick (which also often happens), then it is no longer true that we can punch anywhere we can kick. A long step and long kick will hit from further away than a long step and punch.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I don't train with Philipp Bayer and so cannot speak for him, but you appear to have posted a clip showing a lot of training drills. I don't see what relevance these have to this discussion?



There is no idea of sweet spot in WSL VT . My understanding is that the idea came from JKD

There may be no "idea" of it, but the sweet spot actually exists. When you step with your punch, you are adjusting that step to put your punch into what is the ideal range for that punch in that situation. If that weren't true, you'd just always step some random distance, regardless of the situation.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

WSL VT has footwork with all punches, not most punches. It isn't a punch without footwork because the power comes from the footwork. Where the arm motion reaches is irrelevant.

I'm curious, then, because this is an interesting dynamic. If the sole focus is getting the punch in, and you must step to punch, how do you punch once you have closed the distance? Do you open that distance back up so you can step in again?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Western boxing punches are completely unlike VT punches in that they do indeed have a point on the arc of the punch where it is best to hit the opponent. This is because they rely upon momentum and weight shift within the upper body of the puncher. A VT punch works in a very different way and doesn't have the same problem.

A VT punch also requires the momentum of the body. If the person is more than a step (and arm) away, you'd take two steps (the second being the step with the punch). If you punched on the first step, the momentum of the punch would be wasted before it got to the target. The boxing punch is more targeted in distance than what you're describing of the VT punch, but every punch will have a point beyond which the momentum runs out.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

We don't step in and then punch

If you are two steps away, what then?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Very sorry for any confusion in my language

Your English is quite good. I wouldn't worry about that. You've hit a sore spot for some folks in here, because your approach is very much like that of someone who used to post in these forums, who was unable to accept others' views, and also unable to discuss concepts in any terms other than his own. Give folks a chance to get to know you, and they may soften up a bit.

 

[Transk53]

Western boxing punches are completely unlike VT punches in that they do indeed have a point on the arc of the punch where it is best to hit the opponent. This is because they rely upon momentum and weight shift within the upper body of the puncher. A VT punch works in a very different way and doesn't have the same problem.

That's interesting. Would love to see a demonstration on that?

 

[Hazardi172]

I'm curious, then, because this is an interesting dynamic. If the sole focus is getting the punch in, and you must step to punch, how do you punch once you have closed the distance? Do you open that distance back up so you can step in again?

We use different footwork in WSL VT when closer to the opponent, but still footwork is essential

 

[Hazardi172]

A VT punch also requires the momentum of the body. If the person is more than a step (and arm) away, you'd take two steps (the second being the step with the punch). If you punched on the first step, the momentum of the punch would be wasted before it got to the target. The boxing punch is more targeted in distance than what you're describing of the VT punch, but every punch will have a point beyond which the momentum runs out.

I would call distance beyond which we can step and punch safe distance, in that opponent cannot do anything and neither can we

A punch in VT uses body momentum in a different way to boxing. There is no sweet spot in the path of the punching arm in VT because there is no upper body torque, weight shift, and momentum. The VT punch is very hard to jam or move away from for this reason. It is uniform along the arm path because upper body is cut out of the action.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

We use different footwork in WSL VT when closer to the opponent, but still footwork is essential

But what do you do when you're already as close as you can get? How do you get to where you can punch with that step?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I would call distance beyond which we can step and punch safe distance, in that opponent cannot do anything and neither can we

Your opponent could step and kick (as you could, assuming WSLVT has stepping kicks).

 

[Hazardi172]

Your English is quite good. I wouldn't worry about that. You've hit a sore spot for some folks in here, because your approach is very much like that of someone who used to post in these forums, who was unable to accept others' views, and also unable to discuss concepts in any terms other than his own. Give folks a chance to get to know you, and they may soften up a bit.

I accept your views! I can't tell you what you are doing in your martial arts, that is for you to tell me

 

[Hazardi172]

But what do you do when you're already as close as you can get? How do you get to where you can punch with that step?

Footwork doesn't necessarily have to be stepping

 

[Hazardi172]

Your opponent could step and kick (as you could, assuming WSLVT has stepping kicks).

The distance beyond step and punch can't hit with kick. You can choose step and punch or step and kick. I prefer to punch when I can.

 

[Hazardi172]

That's interesting. Would love to see a demonstration on that?

Will see if I can find for you a clip on Youtube

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Footwork doesn't necessarily have to be stepping

I realize that. I'm referring to your explanation that a VT punch must have a step. I know that punch can be used from a very short distance, but what's the tactic/footwork for when you're too close to step? My primary art is a grappling/striking art, so we don't have the same advantages and limitations. I'm interested in learning how other styles and arts solve some of the principle issues like this - what their most common approaches are.

 

[Hazardi172]

I realize that. I'm referring to your explanation that a VT punch must have a step. I know that punch can be used from a very short distance, but what's the tactic/footwork for when you're too close to step? My primary art is a grappling/striking art, so we don't have the same advantages and limitations. I'm interested in learning how other styles and arts solve some of the principle issues like this - what their most common approaches are.

Not sure I said it must be a step. Must be footwork- yes, must be momentum not from upper body weight shift- absolutely

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The distance beyond step and punch can't hit with kick. You can choose step and punch or step and kick. I prefer to punch when I can.

I disagree with that. The leg is longer than the arm, so there's a distance at which a step and leg will out-reach a step and arm. You won't find me kicking at that distance much, but someone from Tae Kwon Do absolutely will, as likely will someone from most styles of Karate. It's one of the strengths of a kick that it can be executed from outside punching distance.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Not sure I said it must be a step. Must be footwork- yes

Ah! Okay, I think you did say it had to be a step (or I'm just mis-remembering), but it makes sense that you can carry that same power shift with other footwork when there's no room for the step. Any chance you're aware of a video that shows this other footwork? I'm starting to get a better picture of how the punch you're describing works.