Wing Chun Boxing

[drop bear]

I agree that there are places for it and frankly I'm not really even opposed to it under the right circumstances. And like you I see places in the forms that could be seen as a backfist.

I don't specifically care either way but my teacher trained in HK directly from Leung Ting and he said LT insisted there were no backfists in WT.

Yeah...... but if you can hit a guy with a back fist. Why wouldn't it be in WT?

I could understand if there was a technical reason but the argument that it does not convey the right image seems a bit irrelevant.

 

[geezer]

BTW Yak, while on the subject of useful techniques that Leung Ting didn't accept, how do you feel about using low, chopping round-house kicks ... delivered either with the lead leg or from the rear with a passing step. I kinda like them ...delivered with sharp, short power and chopping the opponent's leg like heavier version of a gaun-sau. I call it gaun gerk.

Man, as I share these thoughts I can still hear the old man saying "Everone thinks they are so clever ...so clever ...thinking up some funny movements. Even my German Keith does this..."

 

[nikthegreek_3]

BJJ has hip throw that requires to bend spine too.

If there is a $100 bill on the ground, will a straight spine WC guy bend forward and pick it up?

The moment that you let "style" to put restriction on yourself, the moment you become the slave of that style.

You miss my point. I never said that you must be a slave of the system and that you must not move your spine at all or that you don't have to adjust. I speak about MENTALITY. And the mentality of Wing Chun is to keep a solid structure. Perhaps you train in another system so you cannot understand this, but it is just principles - which are very basic.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

LT insisted there were no backfists in WT.

The hook punch and back fist come in pair. You throw a hook punch, when your opponent dodges under it, you can use

- horizontal back fist to hit on the side of his head (similar to spin back fist).
- vertical back fist to hit on the top of his head.

If you train hook punch, you will also train back fist.

The back fist is also used to set up a kick. You throw a back fist, your opponent blocks it. You change your back fist into a grab and pull followed with a kick.

If you train kick, you will also train back fist.

Some long fist instructors insisted there were no roundhouse kick in long fist system. I insist that the roundhouse kick is in the long fist system because I brought it into the long fist system many years ago.

 

[yak sao]

Or, I suppose I could go through my entire life unquestioningly following arbitrary rules laid down by my old sifu decades ago...

Sounds reasonable

 

[yak sao]

BTW Yak, while on the subject of useful techniques that Leung Ting didn't accept, how do you feel about using low, chopping round-house kicks ... delivered either with the lead leg or from the rear with a passing step. I kinda like them ...delivered with sharp, short power and chopping the opponent's leg like heavier version of a gaun-sau. I call it gaun gerk.

Man, as I share these thoughts I can still hear the old man saying "Everone thinks they are so clever ...so clever ...thinking up some funny movements. Even my German Keith does this..."

Yeah when teaching I'm kind of a stickler for details, but once a student has acquired some ability then when free sparring I kind of feel like all bets are off.... if they want to use a back fist or a non WT kick in a certain situation that's fine. But if I can show them where something from WT would work better, then I use that as a learning experience

 

[geezer]

.... if they want to use a back fist or a non WT kick in a certain situation that's fine. But if I can show them where something from WT would work better, then I use that as a learning experience

See... when you do that ^^^^ you are teaching more that just rote learning, you are teaching critical thinking ...evaluating a technique in terms of effectiveness in context, and equally important, in terms of consistency with our system and its concepts, our relaxed, "flexible" energy, etc. And then, of course, testing the application against resistance.

 

[geezer]

BTW Yak, I got that that low round kick delivered with the shin from Rene Latosa. I personally think his concepts have really fleshed out my MA. Way back in the early 80s when I was looking for an FMA instructor, I remember LT being totally opposed to any of us in the core group training outside of his WT. Then one afternoon when LT had us all at a table opening and sorting his US mail (separating the junk mail from legit inquiries I came across a correspondence from Rene Latosa. My si-dai, not recognizing the name had thrown it into the trash, so I rescued it and handed it over to Si-fu ...but not before I jotted down the return address.

You see, I knew that if I could train with Rene, Sifu would still put up with me and not kick me out since he and Rene knew each other well and did business together with the EWTO. It was a rare case of me scheming like my Si-fu.

And, for once, things worked out as planned. I got to learn a really practical version of FMA as I continued to learn from LT for another ten or twelve years. Eventually, my free thinking (and mediocre ability) sort of side-lined me, but looking back, branching out into Escrima was really worth it. Oddly enough, I feel I've come to understand WT/WC better for it.

 

[yak sao]

BTW Yak, I got that that low round kick delivered with the shin from Rene Latosa. I personally think his concepts have really fleshed out my MA. Way back in the early 80s when I was looking for an FMA instructor, I remember LT being totally opposed to any of us in the core group training outside of his WT. Then one afternoon when LT had us all at a table opening and sorting his US mail (separating the junk mail from legit inquiries I came across a correspondence from Rene Latosa. My si-dai, not recognizing the name had thrown it into the trash, so I rescued it and handed it over to Si-fu ...but not before I jotted down the return address.

You see, I knew that if I could train with Rene, Sifu would still put up with me and not kick me out since he and Rene knew each other well and did business together with the EWTO. It was a rare case of me scheming like my Si-fu.

And, for once, things worked out as planned. I got to learn a really practical version of FMA as I continued to learn from LT for another ten or twelve years. Eventually, my free thinking (and mediocre ability) sort of side-lined me, but looking back, branching out into Escrima was really worth it. Oddly enough, I feel I've come to understand WT/WC better for it.

I was fortunate to attend several RL seminars back in the 90s / early 2000s and even had the privilege of having him at my school.

I regret not keeping up with that training....I also think it helped my WT.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I got that that low round kick delivered with the shin from Rene Latosa. I personally think his concepts have really fleshed out my MA.

What's your opinion between the

- low roundhouse kick with the shin bone, vs.
- foot sweep with the instep?

 

[geezer]

What's your opinion between the
- low roundhouse kick with the shin bone, vs.
- foot sweep with the instep?

Both are very useful, but I really think they serve somewhat different functions. In WT/WC, I see the low round kick with the shinbone is a more of a damaging attack to the leg that also unbalances and creates an opening to wedge inside your opponent's stance, setting you up for close range striking. I like that the inward rotated knee position guards your center and groin to a larger degree with this technique ...something akin to Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma.

The inside foot sweep seems primarily directed at the stance itself with the main objective of unbalancing and sweeping your opponent to the ground. So it is more of a takedown. Seems especially appropriate for a grappling, throwing art. In an unrestricted exchange, it can also leave your groin exposed for a counterattack if you aren't careful!

What is your perspective on these attacks, John?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

What is your perspective on these attacks, John?

When you use shin bone roundhouse kick on your opponent's low leg, if he turns his shin bone into you, that will be shin bone against shin bone. There is a risk that if your opponent's shin bone is stronger than yours, your roundhouse kick may hurt your own leg.

The foot sweep doesn't have this concern. Even if you just force your opponent to raise his leg, you can safely move in at that moment. The foot sweep is only the low body motion. It's less committed and doesn't require the upper body rotation (the MT roundhouse kick require full body rotation). Also if your opponent turns his shin bone into your foot sweep, you can change your foot sweep into a horizontal scoop to drag his foot along the ground. You can't do that for your roundhouse kick.

 

[drop bear]

That's not much of a contribution to this particular forum. There are other locations on MartialTalk for people who don't train Wing Chun, perhaps one of them would be a better fit for you.

I came across this recently. On paper these are martial arts masters with years of experience performing live testing via challenge matches against trained fighters.


But in reality it is this.

 

[drop bear]

Both are very useful, but I really think they serve somewhat different functions. In WT/WC, I see the low round kick with the shinbone is a more of a damaging attack to the leg that also unbalances and creates an opening to wedge inside your opponent's stance, setting you up for close range striking. I like that the inward rotated knee position guards your center and groin to a larger degree with this technique ...something akin to Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma.

The inside foot sweep seems primarily directed at the stance itself with the main objective of unbalancing and sweeping your opponent to the ground. So it is more of a takedown. Seems especially appropriate for a grappling, throwing art. In an unrestricted exchange, it can also leave your groin exposed for a counterattack if you aren't careful!

What is your perspective on these attacks, John?

It depends where your foot is. If you leave it at the centre of your body and keep it light then you are open to being swept. If you bring it out to the side and ground it it is much harder to sweep.

But.

Then you may not get it up fast enough to defend leg kicks.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

It depends where your foot is. If you leave it at the centre of your body and keep it light then you are open to being swept. If you bring it out to the side and ground it it is much harder to sweep.

But.

Then you may not get it up fast enough to defend leg kicks.

To deal with below knee kick, you can also just to bend your leg at your knee joint and let your opponent's leg to pass under it. You can then sweep that leg after it pass your leg.

 

[geezer]

It depends where your foot is. If you leave it at the centre of your body and keep it light then you are open to being swept. If you bring it out to the side and ground it it is much harder to sweep. But ...Then you may not get it up fast enough to defend leg kicks.

Well put.

The Wing Tsun lineage thinking is that if your front leg is light, it doesn't matter if it is swept, since you are stable on your rear leg.

The problem, as I found out early on, is that if your opponent has a really good sweep, he can get your rear leg too. The guy that proved that to me later went on to become really good at muay thai.

 

[geezer]

I came across this recently. On paper these are martial arts masters with years of experience performing live testing via challenge matches against trained fighters. But in reality it is this.

Um ...I'm missing your point here.

The first clip showed some unknown people (?) in Fo'shan from informally engaging in light or non-contact sparring. One guy was supposedly from Wong Shun Leung lineage. I couldn't tell which. Unimpressive ...a lot of bad habits, poor body positioning, dropping hands, lack of power... generally crappy fighting, and who the hell fights in a trench coat? But so what?

The second clip was of Wang Zhi Peng, a WSL student who teaches in Beijing. He was engaging in chi-sau practice with a student ...and occasionally freeing things up a bit. He also teaches grappling ...so we saw a bit of that thrown in. It looked like a good WC training session to me. So what's the problem here?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

if your opponent has a really good sweep, he can get your rear leg too.

This is why the

- sweep, cut,
- sweep, sweep,
- sweep, hook,
- sweep, shin bite,
- sweep, block.
- ...

always come in pair. You attack your opponent's leading leg, when he lifts up that leg, you attack his rear leg.

 

[geezer]

....You attack your opponent's leading leg, when he lifts up that leg, you attack his rear leg.

That is also why in WT the front leg is used to counterattack as soon as it lifts or evades the initial sweep. So you lift/evade and immediately thrust forward with a kick, knee, or else circle around your opponent's leg and press forward to attack his leg with a sweep, shin-bite, hook-sweep, etc.

....But if your opponent is very fast and strong, or can change levels to deliver the rear leg sweep from a lower position or at a greater distance, I found that I did not always have time to counter.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I came across this recently. On paper these are martial arts masters with years of experience performing live testing via challenge matches against trained fighters.


But in reality it is this.

Not sure if it's just me. But it's saying that the link is only available on youtube, and when I click on the youtube button for it, it just takes me to my homepage