Pin Sun Wing Chun & Wing Chun Boxing

[Flying Crane]

Unless it turns out that he is petty and small-minded or on a huge ego trip or very controlling or threatened by someone else's success or creativity, etc. Leung Ting has turned his back on many good people in his organization, and so has William Cheung. In the end what counts is what you know and what you can do, not what someone else says you know or thinks you can do.

These negative traits could also describe the student.

I’ve seen way more people who were eager beavers to become a teacher, when they had the skills and understanding of a beginner. Feelings get hurt when someone wants to be a teacher, and they have no business being such.

People often have an overinflated notion of their skills and knowldege.

 

[KPM]

These negative traits could also describe the student.

I’ve seen way more people who were eager beavers to become a teacher, when they had the skills and understanding of a beginner. Feelings get hurt when someone wants to be a teacher, and they have no business being such.

People often have an overinflated notion of their skills and knowldege.

I'm sure this is true. But you haven't once acknowledged that what I have been saying can also be true. Just ask Alex Richter!

 

[Flying Crane]

I'm sure this is true. But you haven't once acknowledged that what I have been saying can also be true. Just ask Alex Richter!

I do recognize that it can be true.

I don’t know what happened between you and Alex richter. I read your exchange and there is a lot of finger pointing but I wasn’t there and don’t know what actually happened. For all I know, you could both absolutely BELIEVE that you are right and yet both be wrong due to perspectives and misunderstandings. You you could both simply be selectively embellishing the part of the story that you feel casts yourself in the best light, or you could both be outright lying. Sure, it is also possible that one of you is being honest and the other is a liar.

But I am not in a position to judge that.

If a student had already been teaching with full recognition and endorsement of his sifu, and then sifu pulled his endorsement and started saying that the student is not qualified to teach, well then I would say the student should feel free to separate from his sifu and continue to do whatever he wants. Time to go it alone.

But if a student never had that kind of endorsement to begin with, then I put more stock into sifu’s assessment. It’s harder to claim the right to be a teacher in that case, there is a lot less credibility.

It is also possible that sifu has endorsed the student to be a teacher, and then the student gets some weird ideas and starts teaching a bunch of stuff that sifu feels is erroneous and is bad teaching. In that case, sifu says “I no longer endorse him as a student, he should not teach and if he does so, then it is against my wishes and he is no longer associated with me.” Sifu does have the right to take that position as well. Student can either change his ways and get in line with sifu’s vision of how things ought to be done, or he can make the separation and do as he will. But even if student does that, sifu can still continue to speak up and tell people that the student is teaching poor XYZ Kung Fu.

People get all bent out of shape over what they perceive as limits that others are imposing on them. So some people decide, well screw it, I’ll do what I want, and it is true that nobody can stop them.

But what is also true is that sifu, and those in his camp, can also speak up against what the student doing. Nobody can stop them from doing that, either. Just because one side feels riteous about it does not mean that the other side doesn’t feel just as strongly. And both can speak up about it, and it can get nasty.

It is a two-way street. That is reality. Once you get yourself, or find yourself, in that situation, it may follow you forever. Fair or not, that is life.

A lot of Kung Fu training is about the relationships, and it seems people don’t always realize that or give it the thought that it merits.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

The idea that you will need permission to teach a certain MA system is ridicules. You don't need any permission to teach any MA system. If you have learned something. It's yours.

I agree as long as you are honest about your qualifications and experience in whatever you are teaching.

If you are a white belt in BJJ and you tell people that and they still want to learn from you, then more power to you.*

If you have never been in a BJJ class but you learned a move from YouTube and someone still wants to learn from you when you tell them the source of your knowledge ... that's on them. Just try not to injure each other, please.

If you are a white belt in BJJ and you tell potential students that you are a black belt ... you and I are going to have some problems.

*(There are UFC fighters who are white belts in BJJ only because they have never bothered to train in the gi and who I would be happy to learn from.)

 

[KPM]

I don’t know what happened between you and Alex richter. .

Insincere Wing Tsun Amnesia (IWTA)

 

[Flying Crane]

Insincere Wing Tsun Amnesia (IWTA)

A lot of dirty laundry there, but what does it mean to me? I wasn’t there, I don’t know who is embellishing the truth or cherry picking facts.

That’s the thing with airing laundry and pointing fingers on the internet. It is intensely important to those involved, but to the bystanders nobody looks good.

 

[KPM]

A lot of dirty laundry there, but what does it mean to me? I wasn’t there, I don’t know who is embellishing the truth or cherry picking facts.

That’s the thing with airing laundry and pointing fingers on the internet. It is intensely important to those involved, but to the bystanders nobody looks good.

Well....you made comments that indicated that you clearly didn't understand what I meant when I was making references to Alex Richter. So I shared that link out of courtesy since my references to Alex were unclear to you. Most of the Wing Chun people here understood exactly what I was referring to. But if you want to continue to be a dick about it all, then just go right ahead.

 

[Flying Crane]

Well....you made comments that indicated that you clearly didn't understand what I meant when I was making references to Alex Richter. So I shared that link out of courtesy since my references to Alex were unclear to you. Most of the Wing Chun people here understood exactly what I was referring to. But if you want to continue to be a dick about it all, then just go right ahead.

Ok, I didn’t read the entire lengthy article by Alex. I get that he isn’t unhappy with Leung Ting.

Did he mention you in that article? Did that article clear up anything about your relationship with Alex?

And again, how do I know who to believe? That’s what I’m saying about the dirty laundry on the Internet. For those in the middle of it, it can be intensely important. To everyone else who sees it, not so much.

 

[KPM]

Ok, I didn’t read the entire lengthy article by Alex. I get that he isn’t unhappy with Leung Ting.

Did he mention you in that article? Did that article clear up anything about your relationship with Alex?

And again, how do I know who to believe? That’s what I’m saying about the dirty laundry on the Internet. For those in the middle of it, it can be intensely important. To everyone else who sees it, not so much.

Geez loo-ezze! I have no relationship to Alex, I've never met him! My point was that Jim was doing to me exactly what Leung Ting did to Alex. It seems to be a "thing" in some Wing Chun circles. But alright, you obviously haven't been paying very good attention to the actual discussion. So just drop it.

 

[Flying Crane]

Geez loo-ezze! I have no relationship to Alex, I've never met him! My point was that Jim was doing to me exactly what Leung Ting did to Alex. It seems to be a "thing" in some Wing Chun circles. But alright, you obviously haven't been paying very good attention to the actual discussion. So just drop it.

Got it, my mistake. I got Jim and Alex mixed up.

I understand that Leung Ting has a reputation for being...someone to avoid. I’ve seen that often enough in numerous discussions.

But do you get what I’m saying? We see this back and forth, people make claims and accusations, how do the spectators know who, if anyone, is in the right? It’s finger pointing in both directions.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If you are a white belt in BJJ and you tell people that and they still want to learn from you, then more power to you.

It all depends on whether or not if you can produce good fighters.

If you are a

- black belt but you can't produce good fighters,
- white belt but you can produce good fighters,

there is something wrong about your belt system.

 

[geezer]

Got it, my mistake. I got Jim and Alex mixed up.

I understand that Leung Ting has a reputation for being...someone to avoid. I’ve seen that often enough in numerous discussions.

But do you get what I’m saying? We see this back and forth, people make claims and accusations, how do the spectators know who, if anyone, is in the right? It’s finger pointing in both directions.

Numerous discussions? Sounds like rumors to me. Let me clarify a bit. Leung Ting has legit skills. Definitely. ...It's his personality and business practices that give some people problems. Alex Richter for example, had trouble with LT and went off on his own. As did I back in the 90s. But I did so quietly and did not continue to teach Leung Ting's WingTsun.

...The problem is that Richter was an upcoming instructor who did continue to teach "WT" and did so successfully. LT and those who stayed with him then tried to dismiss as a low ranking nobody. His article confirms that that is not the case. He was, in fact, well trained and highly competent.

I was a disciple of LT for a dozen years starting back in 1980 and I can confirm that Richter was a skilled and respected instructor in the LT organization, and now is a successful instructor on his own. Beyond that, I have never met him, and only had one or two brief email contacts with him, so I have nothing more to add.

So what does any of this have to do with Keith (KPM) or the topic at hand? Nothing except that Keith feels he is being attacked in the same way. It's an imperfect analogy, since Richter was with the LT organization a long time and earned a high rank with them (the same rank I had when I left).

Keith apparently did not spend as much time in Pin Sun. But then he doesn't claim to. Now I'm going to propose something that may sound a bit heretical in the hallowed halls of TCMA. Something I learned from my old Escrima coach. What matters is what you can do, not who you trained under.

 

[Danny T]

What matters is what you can do, not who you trained under.

BOOM!!

 

[Flying Crane]

Numerous discussions? Sounds like rumors to me. Let me clarify a bit. Leung Ting has legit skills. Definitely. ...It's his personality and business practices that give some people problems. Alex Richter for example, had trouble with LT and went off on his own. As did I back in the 90s. But I did so quietly and did not continue to teach Leung Ting's WingTsun.

I should have clarified my comment. I never questioned Leung Tings skill and knowledge. It is his personality and business practices that, from comments here on Martialtalk over the years have convinced me he is one to be avoided.

...The problem is that Richter was an upcoming instructor who did continue to teach "WT" and did so successfully. LT and those who stayed with him then tried to dismiss as a low ranking nobody. His article confirms that that is not the case. He was, in fact, well trained and highly competent.

I was a disciple of LT for a dozen years starting back in 1980 and I can confirm that Richter was a skilled and respected instructor in the LT organization, and now is a successful instructor on his own. Beyond that, I have never met him, and only had one or two brief email contacts with him, so I have nothing more to add.

Thank you for that third party insight. Knowing that you were deeply involved with Leung Ting, I accept your assessment of it. And I do understand and accept that these splinters happen, and people have a way of becoming...unreasonable.

So what does any of this have to do with Keith (KPM) or the topic at hand? Nothing except that Keith feels he is being attacked in the same way. It's an imperfect analogy, since Richter was with the LT organization a long time and earned a high rank with them (the same rank I had when I left).

Keith apparently did not spend as much time in Pin Sun. But then he doesn't claim to.

Exactly. It’s an imperfect analogy. These things do happen. Is it happening to Keith? Obviously he feels it is. I myself don’t know; I wasn’t there. But just because it does happen in the world, does not automatically mean it is happening here.

The discussion has gotten more personal than it should have and I’m not going to go into it further.

Now I'm going to propose something that may sound a bit heretical in the hallowed halls of TCMA. Something I learned from my old Escrima coach. What matters is what you can do, not who you trained under.

I don’t disagree.

 

[KPM]

I Is it happening to Keith? Obviously he feels it is. I myself don’t know; I wasn’t there. But just because it does happen in the world, does not automatically mean it is happening here.

The discussion has gotten more personal than it should have

.

Because you Michael, have essentially been calling me a liar across two different threads.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I do recognize that it can be true.

I don’t know what happened between you and Alex richter. I read your exchange and there is a lot of finger pointing but I wasn’t there and don’t know what actually happened. For all I know, you could both absolutely BELIEVE that you are right and yet both be wrong due to perspectives and misunderstandings. You you could both simply be selectively embellishing the part of the story that you feel casts yourself in the best light, or you could both be outright lying. Sure, it is also possible that one of you is being honest and the other is a liar.

But I am not in a position to judge that.

If a student had already been teaching with full recognition and endorsement of his sifu, and then sifu pulled his endorsement and started saying that the student is not qualified to teach, well then I would say the student should feel free to separate from his sifu and continue to do whatever he wants. Time to go it alone.

But if a student never had that kind of endorsement to begin with, then I put more stock into sifu’s assessment. It’s harder to claim the right to be a teacher in that case, there is a lot less credibility.

It is also possible that sifu has endorsed the student to be a teacher, and then the student gets some weird ideas and starts teaching a bunch of stuff that sifu feels is erroneous and is bad teaching. In that case, sifu says “I no longer endorse him as a student, he should not teach and if he does so, then it is against my wishes and he is no longer associated with me.” Sifu does have the right to take that position as well. Student can either change his ways and get in line with sifu’s vision of how things ought to be done, or he can make the separation and do as he will. But even if student does that, sifu can still continue to speak up and tell people that the student is teaching poor XYZ Kung Fu.

People get all bent out of shape over what they perceive as limits that others are imposing on them. So some people decide, well screw it, I’ll do what I want, and it is true that nobody can stop them.

But what is also true is that sifu, and those in his camp, can also speak up against what the student doing. Nobody can stop them from doing that, either. Just because one side feels riteous about it does not mean that the other side doesn’t feel just as strongly. And both can speak up about it, and it can get nasty.

It is a two-way street. That is reality. Once you get yourself, or find yourself, in that situation, it may follow you forever. Fair or not, that is life.

A lot of Kung Fu training is about the relationships, and it seems people don’t always realize that or give it the thought that it merits.

I'll just toss out a thought about instructor endorsements. I know a guy who, had he had a falling out with his instructor (also my primary instructor) 10 years ago, he'd have left without an instructor endorsement (never having tested for his shodan, because he never did the requisite student teaching). Had that happened, and he'd decided to open his own school, he'd have been highly qualified to do so. See, he actually started a few years before me, and in some ways has a deeper understanding than I do, though at that time he was technically junior to me (I was shodan, he was ikkyu). He is easily on par with me as an instructor (I recently had a chance to attend a class he taught at my instructor's school), and probably was better prepared than me 10 years ago.

So, I get what you're saying, but I've seen so many instructor/student splits. And in almost none has there been a real "bad guy" - it's almost always either mutual crap-slinging, or just a clash of approaches that made the instructor feel threatened. I'd say that 75% of the cases of real acrimony I've seen, the ego problem was primarily with the instructor. In the other 25%, the student was borderline batshit crazy (at least in the situation in question). So I tend to take both sides with a high dose of skepticism.

Fortunately (as evidenced by the fact that he's still teaching there), that guy never had a falling out with that instructor, so it's all hypothetical.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It all depends on whether or not if you can produce good fighters.

If you are a

- black belt but you can't produce good fighters,
- white belt but you can produce good fighters,

there is something wrong about your belt system.

I don't think there's anything necessarily wrong when a white belt can produce good fighters. There are a lot of reasons why that might be reasonable. He may have experience in other styles (so only a white belt in that style). He may have chosen to retain that rank (sandbagging).

Of course, the other end is a problem if the rank (black belt) is supposed to be an instructor rank, and the style purports to develop fighting/defensive skills.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Because you Michael, have essentially been calling me a liar across two different threads.

Keith, I have no stake in this, so please hear this as an honest question. Is it possible you are mis-reading Michael's intent?

 

[KPM]

Keith, I have no stake in this, so please hear this as an honest question. Is it possible you are mis-reading Michael's intent?

You tell me. I'm the one that had done the "distance student" thing and have said that it has worked fine for me. He has now stated multiple times that he doesn't think that it is workable. He has stated several times now something about not knowing which side to believe in these lineage disputes despite my efforts at giving a detailed explanation. That means he has chosen NOT to believe what I have written. That is essentially disregarding what I have said. He has said more than once that in such situations "everyone wants to think they are the exception, but they aren't." So yeah, to me it certainly sounds like he thinks I am lying about what I have written. What do you think?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You tell me. I'm the one that had done the "distance student" thing and have said that it has worked fine for me. He has now stated multiple times that he doesn't think that it is workable. He has stated several times now something about not knowing which side to believe in these lineage disputes despite my efforts at giving a detailed explanation. That means he has chosen NOT to believe what I have written. That is essentially disregarding what I have said. He has said more than once that in such situations "everyone wants to think they are the exception, but they aren't." So yeah, to me it certainly sounds like he thinks I am lying about what I have written. What do you think?

I see your point. But he doesn't know what you know about the situation. From his point of view, it's all he-said, he-said. And nobody ever (even if they try to) actually presents their side of the story objectively - our own memories make that impossible. His comments, taken as generic comments, aren't way off base. I disagree with some of his conclusions (on a generic level), but not vehemently. I'm just saying it could be that he's making generic comments that happen to sound like they are about you. A PM between you guys could probably clarify it.