Fighting a boxer in Wing Chun

[Juany118]

I think the whole "boxing is a sport, WC is meant for fighting, the rules just don't favor it" thing is kinda claptrap. It is not that easy to Chun somebody that has broken timing, takes advantage of a whole bunch of different angles and doesn't want to bridge with you if you don't spar against them regularly, which 99% of Chunners don't except in the case of against someone who's imitating boxing thinking that a bunch of slow jabs that stay there in the air and hugely telegraphed haymakers are all that boxing is.

I have known a few boxers, one an Amateur Champion back in his younger days. He is almost middle aged now so not quite as strong, not quite as fast but he has kept up on the skill side. One thing I noticed was that because of their training he was used to beating the heavy bag etc while taped up. However I once saw him take a guy apart in a bar fight BUT he was in the hospital later himself getting X-rays to make sure nothing was broken because he was punching the way he would in the ring and his hands were simply unprepared for unsupported impact. So being for the ring can make a difference in a real life fight BUT as this scenario shows it's not enough to make a difference.

Now I have never done full contact sparring with him, but I have watched him spar someone else who studies Wing Chun from the same lineage, just a different Sifu. The first few times sparring he was kinda taken aback. The WC guy handled a boxer the way I think you should. It wasn't really the fact that the WC guy didn't really do the typical "feel em out and test em" thing (he did a little just to see what my buddy led with, what seemed strongest and to test footwork), as much as he was used to the the range boxers use, he simply wasn't ready for how the WC guy would essentially flood him to get to how close the WC guy was comfy fighting at. They even had a "no kicks" rule the first few times and my buddy was constantly going for a clinch or backing up to get more distance, he really couldn't take the offensive, the WC guy had it, until he got used to it. Once he got used to it his superior skill came to the fore BUT then as a gentleman (a lost art imo) he decided to forego the "no kick" rule. This brought him back to a spot of bother, because while the rule was "no kicks to the knee" he took some solid shots to the thigh that could have landed him in the hospital if they had struck the knee. The problem is though that again, the WC guy did not hesitate to bridge the gap to attack, but now instead of trying to get inside the Boxer's reach, he stayed out side it and simulated trying to destroy the Boxer's legs. My buddy moved to the West Coast though before I could see if he learned how to deal with that so I likely won't know if he could have adapted to the full combination.

What does the above mean in short form? Every video I see of WC vs Boxer has the Wing Chun guy looks like a boxer. They dance back and forth and the only time you see Wing Chun is when the WC guy and the Boxer meet at what I will call "boxing range". You either need to stay at long range with kicks or get inside quick.

If a WC guy has to fight a boxer I don't think you can fool around you need to be aggressive as hell. If you are doing it in real life where a Boxer is trying to kick your ***, as long as you can articulate that, do not be afraid to help him visit the Orthopedic Surgeon for his knee. If you are in the ring however, you can't do that, so (again just my opinion) you kinda have to think like Henry the V "once more into the breach!!!" You need to get inside that reach of the Boxer as WC is designed to fight closer. This way he can't hit you with full power while you continue your attack. Does this mean you risk taking a hit on your way in? Hell yeah it does, BUT if you don't go in, if you find yourself spending most of your time in the Boxer's range, you are playing to their strengths and not the strength of Wing Chun.

Again just my opinion. /shrug

 

[Marnetmar]

I'm actually very much in the same camp, WC needs to do a lot more closing the gap and fighting close in if it wants to work effectively. What I'm saying though is that closing the gap without getting clocked on the way in is more difficult than a lot of WC guys think it is, which is why a lot of WC guys play the kickboxing game when it comes to sparring, not necessarily just with a boxer but with each other as well to some degree -- they don't know what to do when they aren't bridged and are scared to come in because it's completely foreign territory to them.

 

[Juany118]

I'm actually very much in the same camp, WC needs to do a lot more closing the gap and fighting close in if it wants to work effectively. What I'm saying though is that closing the gap without getting clocked on the way in is more difficult than a lot of WC guys think it is, which is why a lot of WC guys play the kickboxing game when it comes to sparring, not necessarily just with a boxer but with each other as well to some degree -- they don't know what to do when they aren't bridged and are scared to come in because it's completely foreign territory to them.

Yeah I think the problem is this. WC, from everything I can see was designed and trained in this way in China and Hong Kong in the post WWII period but this was because it wasn't just taught as a fighting art but used as such due to the culture in main land China (who is the better Martial Artist) in post war Hong Kong, (the same compounded by the chaos of refugees rolling in). However in the West, while a fighting art in origin I think it isn't trained with real fighting in mind. So much of the training is done already at a point of contact and then all too often the students are basically told "time to spar" and closing gap is almost an alien concept.

That is part of the difficulty, lack of training. With that lack of training comes hesitation. Now it's still difficult but I think these two things compound the difficulty.

I am kinda lucky in that my Sifu teaches this but he uses it in this was because he is also a former LE Operator and now a LE trainer, as such he trains the necessity of aggression, closing that gap for WC to be fully effective.

 

[drop bear]

I'm actually very much in the same camp, WC needs to do a lot more closing the gap and fighting close in if it wants to work effectively. What I'm saying though is that closing the gap without getting clocked on the way in is more difficult than a lot of WC guys think it is, which is why a lot of WC guys play the kickboxing game when it comes to sparring, not necessarily just with a boxer but with each other as well to some degree -- they don't know what to do when they aren't bridged and are scared to come in because it's completely foreign territory to them.

You need a certain sort of fighter to be able to constantly press. And that means cardio and toughness.

If you are training one without the other it can get you in trouble.

 

[Juany118]

You need a certain sort of fighter to be able to constantly press. And that means cardio and toughness.

If you are training one without the other it can get you in trouble.

We are a actually in agreement for a change , if you mean mental as well as physical toughness because in terms of this tactic the biggest factor is mental. Physical is important don't get me wrong, but all the realistic physical toughness in the world can't protect you from the hit you will take if you hesitate, even for a moment. But if you aren't willing, as my old partner used to say, "let you *** hang out and risk it being shot off". If you can adopt that mind set you will be touched no doubt, but if the opponent's skill and readiness being =/< than yours, you won't really be hit (meaning bell rung).

Tbh I think that is what he meant by "getting clocked on the way in." Yeah it's about skill but it is also very much about just surrendering to what you have to do so there is no hesitation.

I am so glad about your mention of cardio. My school actually has one day a week that is a conditioning class. Basically think CrossFit with the MA fundamentals. You need that endurance to win.

 

[drop bear]

We are a actually in agreement for a change , if you mean mental as well as physical toughness because in terms of this tactic the biggest factor is mental. Physical is important don't get me wrong, but all the realistic physical toughness in the world can't protect you from the hit you will take if you hesitate, even for a moment. But if you aren't willing, as my old partner used to say, "let you *** hang out and risk it being shot off". If you can adopt that mind set you will be touched no doubt, but if the opponent's skill and readiness being =/< than yours, you won't really be hit (meaning bell rung).

Tbh I think that is what he meant by "getting clocked on the way in." Yeah it's about skill but it is also very much about just surrendering to what you have to do so there is no hesitation.

I am so glad about your mention of cardio. My school actually has one day a week that is a conditioning class. Basically think CrossFit with the MA fundamentals. You need that endurance to win.

Yeah. Because no experts ever compare chun to boxing. You cant get a comparison there. But there is a type of boxer that uses pressure so you can get an indication of how to use that forward pressure and the tools you need to develop to be successful with it.
Boxing Styles: Swarmer, Slugger, Boxer-Puncher | Commando Boxing - How to Box

Mental toughness will be an advantage regardless as to how you fight.

 

[Juany118]

Yeah. Because no experts ever compare chun to boxing. You cant get a comparison there. But there is a type of boxer that uses pressure so you can get an indication of how to use that forward pressure and the tools you need to develop to be successful with it.
Boxing Styles: Swarmer, Slugger, Boxer-Puncher | Commando Boxing - How to Box

Mental toughness will be an advantage regardless as to how you fight.

Oh yeah my point is that, in this case, mental toughness needs to be trained. You need to be trained to, and practice, closing that gap so you don't hesitate.

 

[Juany118]

Yeah. Because no experts ever compare chun to boxing. You cant get a comparison there. But there is a type of boxer that uses pressure so you can get an indication of how to use that forward pressure and the tools you need to develop to be successful with it.
Boxing Styles: Swarmer, Slugger, Boxer-Puncher | Commando Boxing - How to Box

Mental toughness will be an advantage regardless as to how you fight.

One other point. Training against boxers shouldn't be necessary, what I am speaking of is actually the heart and soul of Wing Chun. The hand techniques are all about getting into that close range where it excels. Due to the stance it's "punching" range is closer that a typical boxer and it is equally at home in trapping/grappling range.

The problem is that the way it is to often taught is with the student already in that range. You start drills, even sparring often, with one hand in contact. Chi-sao also contributes to this. As such many students aren't used to closing the gap the way you would in a "real" conflict or a boxing ring. That isn't to say all sifus fail to train this, some do. Also some people come to Wing Chun already possessing this skill via experience, but that doesn't change the issue I note above.

 

[drop bear]

One other point. Training against boxers shouldn't be necessary, what I am speaking of is actually the heart and soul of Wing Chun. The hand techniques are all about getting into that close range where it excels. Due to the stance it's "punching" range is closer that a typical boxer and it is equally at home in trapping/grappling range.

Those articles by jack slack for example are universal comparisons of how fighting styles work.

The problem is that the way it is to often taught is with the student already in that range. You start drills, even sparring often, with one hand in contact. Chi-sao also contributes to this. As such many students aren't used to closing the gap the way you would in a "real" conflict or a boxing ring. That isn't to say all sifus fail to train this, some do. Also some people come to Wing Chun already possessing this skill via experience, but that doesn't change the issue I note above.

Not really training against boxers. But the boffins who work this stuff out generally dont bother looking at chun. So it is hard to get good tactical advice.

How is the stance something that makes it shorter range?

For me my optimum range is the end of my extended hand. With a whole heap of conditions.

 

[Juany118]

Not really training against boxers. But the boffins who work this stuff out generally dont bother looking at chun. So it is hard to get good tactical advice.

How is the stance something that makes it shorter range?

For me my optimum range is the end of my extended hand. With a whole heap of conditions.

I get your first point. My point however is that Wing Chun is by its nature about closing the gap. The thing is, unlike 18th and 19th Century China, early to mid 20th Century Hong Kong, most people aren't learning any Martial Art with real fighting in mind. They are thinking about competition against people practising the same art and/or self defense and in SD people often think about the other guy coming to you.

As for the stance, 2 things. First many/perhaps most boxers lean forward when you do your full power punches

Proper WC structure has no lean. There are subtle things you do with your lower body to align the spine with your legs so that when you step in with the punch to deliver power the punch is, for lack of a better term, coming from the ground. Your elbow is also down and you are punching from your center line which assists in providing power without having to "lean" into it.

Next, at least in my Lineage, your arm at the conclusion of a punch is never fully extended. In practice you should see a bend in the realm of 130-140 degrees when your fist is impacting. Next you can close even further you can use elbow and knee techniques. This isn't to say boxers can't fight in these ranges, it's just that basically all of WCs techniques, with the exception of kicks, work closer than where many of boxing power strikes are optimized for.

It's why you hear things like "WC can fight in a bathroom..." or "...can fight in a phone booth."

 

[geezer]

It's why you hear things like "WC can fight in a bathroom..." or "...can fight in a phone booth."

So wing Chun is totally unnecessary in today's world because:

1. My kids fight constantly in the bathroom without ever having studied WC.
2. Phone booths died out when the world went to cell phones.

If it weren't for broom closets and a few undersized elevators in old buildings, WC would be totally obsolete.

 

[Phobius]

So wing Chun is totally unnecessary in today's world because:

1. My kids fight constantly in the bathroom without ever having studied WC.
2. Phone booths died out when the world went to cell phones.

If it weren't for broom closets and a few undersized elevators in old buildings, WC would be totally obsolete.

So best defense to WC, take the stairs and do not work as a janitor?

 

[Juany118]

So wing Chun is totally unnecessary in today's world because:

1. My kids fight constantly in the bathroom without ever having studied WC.
2. Phone booths died out when the world went to cell phones.

If it weren't for broom closets and a few undersized elevators in old buildings, WC would be totally obsolete.

1. Well it could be said, if your kids are fighting each other, if they knew WC they would have more training opportunities. On the other hand if it's as school you could find yourself in the School Resource Officer's and Principal's office a lot, so there is a trade off