Wing Chun Boxing

[geezer]

The thing about Wing Chun punching is, never lock the elbow with full extension, because arm breaking is seriously taught in all Chinese styles.

My sifu repeatedly demonstrated that a vertical fist (elbow down) punch with a loose, elastic arm can be fully extended without risk of being broken ....if you know what you are doing. Admittedly, he was practically double jointed. I, on the other hand am quite stiff-jointed, but even so, have had no problems with fully extended WC punches being particularly vulnerable to arm breaks. Quite the opposite in fact.

....remember hooks are easy to block...

Really? Have you sparred with a good boxer?

I have ....though it has been a very long time now. Still, some things I remember ....like never underestimating a good boxer, ...or any other good fighter!

BTW ...welcome to Martialtalk. Hope you hang around!

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

hooks are easy to block,

You may think this just from a striker's point of view.

A hook punch can have many usages. It can be a

1. punch.
2. downward parry.
3. wrist grab.
4. spiral punch - a circular punch change into a straight punch.
5. leading arm jam upper arm.
6. under hook the shoulder.
7. link between the striking art and the grappling art.
8. ...

Because there are many usages, your blocking on your opponent's hook punch can give him a chance to change his hook punch into something else.

 

[Callen]

If necessary to hit him directly you still could, but remember hooks are easy to block, hence the center punch is the only one taught.

This is one of those lineage specific situations, resulting in several ways of looking at the same stuff.

I find all interpretations interesting, even if I don’t personally train that way. From my perspective, perhaps the reason the hook is not taught in Wing Chun isn’t because it’s easy to block; but because of elbow position in general, and how that relates back to the overall concepts/goals of the system.

The straight punch is trained to employ the elbow in a specific way that generates power, provides cover, facilitates direct travel, and establishes the mechanics for actions found in the system. It is developed by keeping the elbow low, in an area (height) between the wrist and hip, and it fires the punch like a piston.

A proper hook punch lifts the elbow to the same height as the hand, which in some lineages, breaks the power generation and mechanics that we work to develop. So that’s why some groups say there is no hook punch in VT/WC.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

A proper hook punch lifts the elbow to the same height as the hand, which in some lineages, breaks the power generation and mechanics that we work to develop. So that’s why some groups say there is no hook punch in VT/WC.

I believe the hook punch uses a different power generation method than the straight punch uses.

 

[Callen]

I believe the hook punch uses a different power generation method than the straight punch uses.

My point exactly.

 

[hunschuld]

My sifu repeatedly demonstrated that a vertical fist (elbow down) punch with a loose, elastic arm can be fully extended without risk of being broken ....if you know what you are doing. Admittedly, he was practically double jointed. I, on the other hand am quite stiff-jointed, but even so, have had no problems with fully extended WC punches being particularly vulnerable to arm breaks. Quite the opposite in fact.

In the early 80's LT did a seminar in Chicago area where he demonstrated this. He asked a very large gentleman to test this . Double jointed or not the way LT reacted many were surprised he did not need serious surgery.

 

[geezer]

I did not see the particular demo, but I assume you are saying that he experienced a lot of pain. That sounds totally plausible. I do know the kind of demo he used to do where he would offer up his extended arm and "dare" people to try and "break" (hyper-extend) it. I'm frankly not surprised that that foolishness caught up with him!

However, the real point I'm making is that it's hard to catch and break an elbow when someone is snapping out real punches and not just leaving them hanging out there. And, it's even harder to injure an elbow when it's pointing downward as it is with the vertical fist WC punch, especially if your arm is relaxed and you know how to flex and roll your elbow to release the stress.

IMO the risk of having your elbow caught and injured when punching has more to do with being overly tight or rigid rather than degree of extension. That's the bigger problem. That and generally crappy punching.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

@Kung Fu Wang you've mentioned several different punches that you'd like to see "added" to the wing chun system. I'd challenge you to look more closely at the wing chun forms. There are actions/motions in the forms which, when a "fist" is formed, can increase the variations of striking options. (Hint: practice your knife form if you know it...but remove the knives and ball up your fists.)
Also, you stated that wc has "linear" punches. Yes, this is true. But it is also more broadly applied. If you study the motions (aka the little idea) of the "punches" in the forms, you will see what this "linear" is trying to impart to the practitioner.

Someone had mentioned about the snake engine used in the WC system. From his description, that snake engine doesn't suit for the hook punch power generation.

This just remind me in another thread that people said their long fist system also has "hip throw". The thing is if you don't train the hip throw power generation (bend body down), you truly don't have hip throw.

By using the same logic, if you don't train the hook punch power generation (rotate body), you don't have hook punch.

 

[geezer]

A proper hook punch lifts the elbow to the same height as the hand, which in some lineages, breaks the power generation and mechanics that we work to develop. So that’s why some groups say there is no hook punch in VT/WC.

This is a good observation.

We have a hooking punch in the lineage I trained and it uses power generated by the rotational force of the stance and elastic force or "springy energy" from the waist and torso. As you noted, the elbow is raised and out (not on centerline) so it definitely uses different principles from the "normal" striking method in WC.

On the other hand, Although different, there is nothing about this hooking punch that contradicts or impedes our normal methods of power generation, for example, in the way that some "hard-style" methods of generating power are incompatible with certain "soft-style" methods. In fact the WC hook uses exactly the same "springy" quality of movement that our branch favors, and employs a rotational movement that most Yip man branches use from Chum Kiu onward. Think of the rotating lan sau movements.

Finally, regarding our conceptual emphasis on such things as efficiency and economy of motion, we employ the hook when the body has been turned aside or when the straight line is closed, and under such conditions, it can be the most efficient technique.

In short, Wing Chun is a reductive art. We are specialists, known as much for what we do not do as for what we do. We strive to be very good at certain things by choosing not to do other things that may distract or be counterproductive to our goals. I see the WC hook punch as being near the boundary of what some (like myself) would gladly use and what others might choose to avoid.

 

[Oily Dragon]

?
I either missed the point of a joke...or I do not understand what you are saying. haha. I gotta ease back on the drinking!

The point was the point.

Many southern styles share the Biu Ji concept ("dart the fingers"), but its underlying concept is the Straight/One Inch Bridge, which in hanzi means to chain one link to the next, like this, to the final inch.

Snake style!

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Does this picture make sense?

- A punches at B.
- B left hand blocks A's punch to A's left, B's right hand attacks A's eyes at the same time.

A can borrow B's blocking force, move his right arm to his left and block B's right hand fingers attack. In other words, B's blocking and attacking contradict to each other.

 

[drop bear]

I did not see the particular demo, but I assume you are saying that he experienced a lot of pain. That sounds totally plausible. I do know the kind of demo he used to do where he would offer up his extended arm and "dare" people to try and "break" (hyper-extend) it. I'm frankly not surprised that that foolishness caught up with him!

However, the real point I'm making is that it's hard to catch and break an elbow when someone is snapping out real punches and not just leaving them hanging out there. And, it's even harder to injure an elbow when it's pointing downward as it is with the vertical fist WC punch, especially if your arm is relaxed and you know how to flex and roll your elbow to release the stress.

IMO the risk of having your elbow caught and injured when punching has more to do with being overly tight or rigid rather than degree of extension. That's the bigger problem. That and generally crappy punching.

I have only been able to hit that arm thing when people leave it out there as a barrier.

If you played with a tight guard i would suggest almost no chance.

 

[drop bear]

As far as hooking punches go. You could do the thumb down whipping style hook if you felt that you wanted to fight in a way where you use only one method of generating power.

Not sure why you would want to do that? Mabye just to make fighting harder?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

As far as hooking punches go. You could do the thumb down whipping style hook if you felt that you wanted to fight in a way where you use only one method of generating power.

Not sure why you would want to do that? Mabye just to make fighting harder?

In the

- throwing art, the hip throw, leg lift, leg twist, ... all use different power generation method.
- striking art, why do you want to use the same power generation for different punches?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Does this picture make sense?

- A punches at B.
- B left hand blocks A's punch to A's left, B's right hand attacks A's eyes at the same time.

A can borrow B's blocking force, move his right arm to his left and block B's right hand fingers attack. In other words, B's blocking and attacking contradict to each other.

Caveat: This is literally the only thread in this that I read, just happened to see it and the picture is interesting.

I agree, for exactly the reason you suggest, B is basically helping A block his arm, meaning B has to go a lot faster than he normally would. Also, if he misses he is giving A a good opportunity to counter attack.

If B was insistent on punching with his right hand there, the better option would be either to punch low (preferably while ducking to prevent a possible counter from A's right hand), or move the hand up just enough to trick A into blocking, and then slip the hand underneath the block to go back towards the eyes. The only other thing I can see is trying to distract them with everything going on up top for a quick leg kick before disengaging.

Edit: Looking at it again, the other option would be to change the parry/block. I'm not sure if this was viable from the initial punch here, but a more downward parry with force keeping it down might also allow the opportunity to jab the eyes, as long as the left hand doesn't prevent it.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

B is basically helping A block his arm, meaning B has to go a lot faster than he normally would. Also, if he misses he is giving A a good opportunity to counter attack.

B's blocking contact point is also interested:

B blocks on A's wrist. A can bend his right arm and strike B's head with his right elbow. If B blocks on A's elbow joint, B won't have this problem.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Here is an example that double hooks is so useful. You can use your 1st hook to parry down your opponent's guard (or grab on his wrist). Your 2nd hook can then punch on his face.

 

[Flying Crane]

I believe the hook punch uses a different power generation method than the straight punch uses.

Not necessarily true. Depends on your methodology, I guess. In my system, they are the same.

 

[hunschuld]

The Bruce picture is not and was not trying to depict real usage. Bruce realized he could not use wing chun as designed in movies. The close range nature does not look good on film so he worked an adapting wing chun for film which involved doing things at a longer range so the looked good in photo's and film. Like this photo.

Also Bruce was not considered very advanced in the wing chun family. He only knew at most the first two forms and what ever techniques WSL WC and HC showed him. Bruce wanted to film Yip Man doing the dummy so he could learn it when he returned to America. Yip did not allow it. So Bruce, while very talented, is not a good example of in depth wing chun knowledge.

 

[Oily Dragon]

The Bruce picture is not and was not trying to depict real usage. Bruce realized he could not use wing chun as designed in movies. The close range nature does not look good on film so he worked an adapting wing chun for film which involved doing things at a longer range so the looked good in photo's and film. Like this photo.

Also Bruce was not considered very advanced in the wing chun family. He only knew at most the first two forms and what ever techniques WSL WC and HC showed him. Bruce wanted to film Yip Man doing the dummy so he could learn it when he returned to America. Yip did not allow it. So Bruce, while very talented, is not a good example of in depth wing chun knowledge.

You missed my point entirely about biu ji and the cheung kiu, probably because Wing Chun wasn't "Designed in movies" and that image isn't what you claim it is. It has nothing to do with Lee's films at all and a lot to do with the foundational ideals of Southern chinese snake styles.

What is your background in southern Chinese boxing? How familiar are you with Shaolin Snake and Crane fundamentals?