Wing Chun Boxing

[Oily Dragon]

Does this picture make sense?

It does as long as you don't over analyze it the way you did. It's definitely not "movie fu", since it's taken right from the Southern snake forms.

It's a basic illustration of biu ji, so I find it funny people would either to theorycraft about it or worse, claim it was made up by Bruce Lee for movies.

It's intended to blind the opponent, which is why the cheung bit regarding bridge linkage is important.

If this turns into a "he does that, I do this" conversation, we're off topic.

 

[wckf92]

If this turns into a "he does that, I do this" conversation, we're off topic.

Absolutely.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

It does as long as you don't over analyze it the way you did. It's definitely not "movie fu", since it's taken right from the Southern snake forms.

It's a basic illustration of biu ji, so I find it funny people would either to theorycraft about it or worse, claim it was made up by Bruce Lee for movies.

It's intended to blind the opponent, which is why the cheung bit regarding bridge linkage is important.

If this turns into a "he does that, I do this" conversation, we're off topic.

It makes sense to attack through your opponent's side door. If Bruce's right hand attack his opponent's eyes on the outside of his opponent's right arm, he won't have this issue. When he does that, he is using his opponent's right arm to jam his opponent's own left arm.

It also make sense to attack through your opponent's front door.

It just doesn't make sense to attack like Bruce did.

 

[wckf92]

If Bruce's right hand attack his opponent's eyes on the outside of his opponent's right arm, he won't have this issue. When he does that, he is using his opponent's right arm to jam his opponent's own left arm.

Wing chun has both "inside to inside", and "outside to outside" but also "inside/outside" methods. Right tool for the right job, etc.

 

[Oily Dragon]

It just doesn't make sense to attack like Bruce did.

It's not an attack though, it's a dead demonstration so it's not a good candidate for deep analysis. It's a basic demo-style snapshot of the idea behind the biu ji, so to extrapolate too much from just the photo like this is throwing out the baby with the bathwater, especially when people start adding in "well Bruce changed things for the camera"...this photo is definitely not one of those.

This is why I posted the animation of the real snake linkage movement and the sudden strike at the camera lens, it's far more alive than this dead photo, but still the photo itself is from a Wing Chun trapping and eye gouge demo, not a movie demo or anything Lee made up for cameras.

You can say it's not an ideal demo of biu ji snake style strike for a given situation, but I don't really believe in ideal demos anywawy, so much is lost in translation and we end up navel gazing.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Wing chun has both "inside to inside", and "outside to outside" but also "inside/outside" methods. Right tool for the right job, etc.

When you attack through your opponent's

1. side door, you want to guide your opponent's leading arm to jam his own back arm.
2. front door, you want to separate your opponent's arms away from his head.

In both cases, your opponent's arms won't give you any problem.

What can the the 3rd choice?

it's a dead demonstration...

Again, Bruce should not help his opponent's right arm to block Bruce's right arm attack. His opponent may forget how to block that eyes attack. because Bruce pushes his right arm, it may remind him to borrow Bruce's push force and easily block that eyes attack.

 

[wckf92]

When you attack through your opponent's

1. side door, you want to guide your opponent's leading arm to jam his own back arm.
2. front door, you want to separate your opponent's arms away from his head.

In both cases, your opponent's arms won't give you any problem.

What can the the 3rd choice?

Already wrote what a potential 3rd option is.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Already wrote what a potential 3rd option is.

I assume when you talk about "inside/outside method", you are talking about you have one arm inside your opponent's front door, and you have the other arm outside of your opponent's front door.

When you use inside/outside method, how do you prevent your opponent from borrowing your force (your outside arm) to block your attack (your inside arm)?

 

[wckf92]

how do you prevent your opponent from borrowing your force

Simple, you don't use force. You don't give him anything to feed off of.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Simple, you don't use force. You don't give him anything to feed off of.

Since your opponent's leading arm is between your arms, all he needs to do is to move his leading arm left and right. He can use one arm to block both of your arms attack. In other word, your opponent's leading arm is in your front door (between your arms). In CMA theory, the inside arm has advantage over the outside arm because your opponent's leading arm controls your center.

This remind me to use WC Tan Shou to block left hook and right hook.

 

[wckf92]

Since your opponent's leading arm is between your arms, all he needs to do is to move his leading arm left and right. He can use one arm to block both of your arms attack. In other word, your opponent's leading arm is in your front door (between your arms). In CMA theory, the inside arm has advantage over the outside arm because your opponent's leading arm controls your center.

Well, I'm not sure how you are arriving at that result. First, these sort of binary discussion points you are prone to use are quite odd. But, let's humor this 'tit for tat' logic tree for a moment.
A) If Bruce's opponent were to move his extended arm to his left (as you say: "blocking" Bruces extended arm) then Bruce has his wu sau which would shoot forward and punch the dude in the face.
B) If Bruce's opponent were to move his extended arm to his right (to his outside gate) then his effort would be met with Bruce's wu sau which would probably actually be more of a gum sau at this point. If this be the case, Bruce's bent left arm has the clear biomechanical advantage over his opponent's outstretched/extended arm.

Regardless of what the opponent would do/could do...WC people are trained to go over/under/through obstacles they may encounter enroute to their intended target. This is WC 101.

 

[Oily Dragon]

In CMA theory, the inside arm has advantage over the outside arm because your opponent's leading arm controls your center.

Also in CMA theory: blind the opponent, you won, unless of course the victim is already proficient in fighting without their eyes (a possibility).

It's important to note that blinding your opponent is strictly forbidden in the United MMA Rules, as well as Queensbury's.

I'll try to make my point a little more potent.

This is an actual snake attack that exemplifies the snake ancestry of Wing Chun.

This is Snake+Crane. Some Wing Chun stylists call this things like "Body of crane, engine of snake" but again, that sort of deconstruction is beside the point of the first picture. Such are the mysteries of kung fu, how effortlessly animals fight and how much humans love to analyze.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Well, I'm not sure how you are arriving at that result. First, these sort of binary discussion points you are prone to use are quite odd. But, let's humor this 'tit for tat' logic tree for a moment.
A) If Bruce's opponent were to move his extended arm to his left (as you say: "blocking" Bruces extended arm) then Bruce has his wu sau which would shoot forward and punch the dude in the face.
B) If Bruce's opponent were to move his extended arm to his right (to his outside gate) then his effort would be met with Bruce's wu sau which would probably actually be more of a gum sau at this point. If this be the case, Bruce's bent left arm has the clear biomechanical advantage over his opponent's outstretched/extended arm.

Regardless of what the opponent would do/could do...WC people are trained to go over/under/through obstacles they may encounter enroute to their intended target. This is WC 101.

I'm talking about a situation like this.

The moment you allow your opponent's leading arm to control your center, he can use his leading arm to deal with both of your arms.

I thought the WC system is specialized in the centerline control.

 

[wckf92]

I thought the WC system is specialized in the centerline control.

The centerline can be controlled from inside-out; and outside-in. Elbow domination by way of the training in SLT encompasses both methods.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The centerline can be controlled from inside-out; and outside-in. Elbow domination by way of the training in SLT encompasses both methods.

Old CMA saying said, "Inside is better than outside, on top is better than to be below".

When your opponent's leading arm is between your arms, he can use that arm to deal with both of your arms.

Also when your opponent's leading leg is between your legs, he can use that leg to deal with both of your legs.

 

[hunschuld]

You missed my point entirely about biu ji and the cheung kiu, probably because Wing Chun wasn't "Designed in movies" and that image isn't what you claim it is. It has nothing to do with Lee's films at all and a lot to do with the foundational ideals of Southern chinese snake styles.

What is your background in southern Chinese boxing? How familiar are you with Shaolin Snake and Crane fundamentals?

You are reading into and over analyzing what I said. This is a simple promo picture nothing more. It is not meant to be A does this so B does that etc etc. The discussion was taking a promo picture making it an application discussion. Of course its a snake concept but its just a picture of an idea not a "this is the best and only way to do the technique".
When taking a picture for a promo or a book a smart marketer wants things to look good and so may use angles and positions they would not actually advocate.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If Bruce uses his left hand to parry down his opponent's right arm, it will be perfect. Bruce just enters his opponent's front door.

 

[Oily Dragon]

You are reading into and over analyzing what I said. This is a simple promo picture nothing more. It is not meant to be A does this so B does that etc etc. The discussion was taking a promo picture making it an application discussion. Of course its a snake concept but its just a picture of an idea not a "this is the best and only way to do the technique".
When taking a picture for a promo or a book a smart marketer wants things to look good and so may use angles and positions they would not actually advocate.

Didn't you say it was made up though? My point was that it's not, it's the same Biu Ji in multiple styles. I can think of at least 5.

Do you know it's also White Crane? This kind of snake technique often continues (like in the Tiger Crane styles) to a followup attack where you've struck the opponent in the eyes, and then you rake their eyes left to right with the same hand, Crane's Wing, pluck an eye with Cranes Beak, whatever. I'll look up the hanzi later, but p oint being, an enemy even partially blinded is pretty easy to blind even further.

I find it funny that Wing Chun students often focus on punching, when punches are not really the point of Wing Chun at all. Maiming your opponent on the other hand...Wing Chun is pretty straightfoward there. In 18th century China, blinding an enemy made you a legend. But in 2021, there's really no need for that, and it's definitely not kosher for friendly competition. So here we have a "promo" technique that is lost to time.

Unless of course, you have the need to blind someone fast, then it's great.

 

[hunschuld]

You will have to show me where I said it was made

Didn't you say it was made up though? My point was that it's not, it's the same Biu Ji in multiple styles. I can think of at least 5.

Do you know it's also White Crane? This kind of snake technique often continues (like in the Tiger Crane styles) to a followup attack where you've struck the opponent in the eyes, and then you rake their eyes left to right with the same hand, Crane's Wing, pluck an eye with Cranes Beak, whatever. I'll look up the hanzi later, but p oint being, an enemy even partially blinded is pretty easy to blind even further.

I find it funny that Wing Chun students often focus on punching, when punches are not really the point of Wing Chun at all. Maiming your opponent on the other hand...Wing Chun is pretty straightfoward there. In 18th century China, blinding an enemy made you a legend. But in 2021, there's really no need for that, and it's definitely not kosher for friendly competition. So here we have a "promo" technique that is lost to time.

Unless of course, you have the need to blind someone fast, then it's great.

You need to go back and read my post. I really have no clue what you are talking about. I never said anything was made up. My posts clearly were only talking about a picture KFW posted . Nothing else. Just commenting on using a promo picture to extrapolate real fighting techniques that's all. I never said anything about the technique. Nothing wrong with the bui . The bui is real,the punch is real and the pak is real. Just what is shown in the picture is very unreal.

 

[geezer]

A further note on Wing Chun Biu sau usage: In the lineage I primarily trained (WT), in application the biu sau is used bpth defensively as a deflection and offensively as a thrusting strike ....usually to the neck, striking with the edge of the hand (that is to say the "pinkie" side of the hand, thrusting forward like a "push-cut" with a knife). In this application, the fingertips go past the target without making contact.

In that lineage, the only time you would possibly "spear" with stiffened fingers is the rising, palm-up strike after the hook-punch near the end of the Biu-Tze form, and that is done specifically to the soft, front of the neck (the underside of the larynx). Personally I find closing the hand and using a "lifting punch" (the uppercut from Chim Kiu) more reliable.

This said, there are clear instances in which biu sau can be used to attack the face, IMO. For example, if you use the biu as a deflection and keep your fingers flexible and "springy" they will often whip into your opponent's face and eyes ...causing, at the very least a flinching blink and tearing response which sets up the next strike. However, this is not a safe or controllable technique to use in sparring, so it is generally avoided. Even in controlled, paired drills, safety glasses and well trimmed and filed nails are recommended!