Wing Chun Boxing

[macher]

Half-way in between? I tend to do both in parallel.

Ok so if someone completely new to martial arts with no experience you’ll blend in both.

My thinking is the blend of western boxing and Wing chun is the best training to learn how to defend yourself. And you don’t necessarily have to learn Wing Chun in its formal way. You just have to be taught in a way that’s most practical for real life combat. Where western boxing comes in is distance and learning to be able to detect / slip / parry etc your opponents strikes.

Here’s a couple teresting videos...

Not sure if I’m mis-interpreting but I don’t agree to use boxing to get into short range or a means to bridge the gap then use Wing Chun. If I have a good jab then can keep the distance out of Wing Chun range and it’s working why not use that jab as a set up for a hook which can be almost medium range even though it would be a wide hook.

Did some light medium sparring with our son. And I told him come at me like a brawler with typical punches like in a street fight. 52 Blocks worked although I need a lot more practice. I kept the sparring at medium range then I was able to step in a little a use my left hook. Was defensive at first cause he was swinging and I ‘weathered out the storm’. This is real life combat MA IMO.

The thing is if you’re defending yourself and you know more than your opponent then you’ll be ok. But if you’re going against someone who’s an experienced boxer let’s say you’ll get your assed kicked. But most situations will be against a street brawler, someone who comes at you swinging.

 

[KPM]

Ok so if someone completely new to martial arts with no experience you’ll blend in both.

---Yes. But the base would be boxing. The core biomechanics I teach are from western boxing and I show how to do the Wing Chun from that base. We usually train outdoors at a local park. But over the winter we were in my basement. So I took that opportunity to focus on level one of "classical" Ku Lo Wing Chun. I showed my small group the sets, how to do them on the dummy, and the two-man exercises that went with them. We also still trained some boxing, but couldn't really use the back and forth footwork or do any effective sparring in my basement. Now the weather is nice again and today we started back at the park. So now we are back to "Wing Chun Boxing mode", but hopefully the guys have a little better perspective having done a bit of the "classical" Wing Chun.

My thinking is the blend of western boxing and Wing chun is the best training to learn how to defend yourself. And you don’t necessarily have to learn Wing Chun in its formal way. You just have to be taught in a way that’s most practical for real life combat. Where western boxing comes in is distance and learning to be able to detect / slip / parry etc your opponents strikes.

---Exactly!

Not sure if I’m mis-interpreting but I don’t agree to use boxing to get into short range or a means to bridge the gap then use Wing Chun. If I have a good jab then can keep the distance out of Wing Chun range and it’s working why not use that jab as a set up for a hook which can be almost medium range even though it would be a wide hook.

---That's true. But what if you can't keep him out at the end of your jab? Then you essentially have to try and clinch him, then push away back to your punching range. That's where Wing Chun would kick in. If you can't keep him at distance, or he is pretty good at avoiding any damaging blows at that distance and you are at somewhat of a stalement.....that's when you close in and start working at "Wing Chun range." You are essentially saying..."If I am a good boxer on the outside range, then why do I need Wing Chun?" That's the same argument as a Wing Chun guy saying..."If I am good at close range with Wing Chun, then why do I need western boxing?" The answer to both questions would be....."You don't!" However, if you want to "expand your game" and be good on both the outside ranges and inside ranges, then you consider doing a hybrid "Wing Chun Boxing." Each can fill in a gap for the other.


The thing is if you’re defending yourself and you know more than your opponent then you’ll be ok. But if you’re going against someone who’s an experienced boxer let’s say you’ll get your assed kicked. But most situations will be against a street brawler, someone who comes at you swinging.

---Very true! But then the experienced boxer may not be prepared to deal with the responses he would get from a Wing Chun on the inside! The Wing Chun guy just has to be able to get to the inside without getting knocked out first!

 

[KPM]

Sorry! Tried to post a FB video, but it didn't work!

 

[macher]

Sorry! Tried to post a FB video, but it didn't work!

Doesn’t work. Is there a link or something?

Just did some light medium sparring with both our sons. We drilled ‘closed door’ from swinging / hooks. Very effective although we need practice.

 

[macher]

Ok so if someone completely new to martial arts with no experience you’ll blend in both.

---Yes. But the base would be boxing. The core biomechanics I teach are from western boxing and I show how to do the Wing Chun from that base. We usually train outdoors at a local park. But over the winter we were in my basement. So I took that opportunity to focus on level one of "classical" Ku Lo Wing Chun. I showed my small group the sets, how to do them on the dummy, and the two-man exercises that went with them. We also still trained some boxing, but couldn't really use the back and forth footwork or do any effective sparring in my basement. Now the weather is nice again and today we started back at the park. So now we are back to "Wing Chun Boxing mode", but hopefully the guys have a little better perspective having done a bit of the "classical" Wing Chun.

My thinking is the blend of western boxing and Wing chun is the best training to learn how to defend yourself. And you don’t necessarily have to learn Wing Chun in its formal way. You just have to be taught in a way that’s most practical for real life combat. Where western boxing comes in is distance and learning to be able to detect / slip / parry etc your opponents strikes.

---Exactly!

Not sure if I’m mis-interpreting but I don’t agree to use boxing to get into short range or a means to bridge the gap then use Wing Chun. If I have a good jab then can keep the distance out of Wing Chun range and it’s working why not use that jab as a set up for a hook which can be almost medium range even though it would be a wide hook.

---That's true. But what if you can't keep him out at the end of your jab? Then you essentially have to try and clinch him, then push away back to your punching range. That's where Wing Chun would kick in. If you can't keep him at distance, or he is pretty good at avoiding any damaging blows at that distance and you are at somewhat of a stalement.....that's when you close in and start working at "Wing Chun range." You are essentially saying..."If I am a good boxer on the outside range, then why do I need Wing Chun?" That's the same argument as a Wing Chun guy saying..."If I am good at close range with Wing Chun, then why do I need western boxing?" The answer to both questions would be....."You don't!" However, if you want to "expand your game" and be good on both the outside ranges and inside ranges, then you consider doing a hybrid "Wing Chun Boxing." Each can fill in a gap for the other.


The thing is if you’re defending yourself and you know more than your opponent then you’ll be ok. But if you’re going against someone who’s an experienced boxer let’s say you’ll get your assed kicked. But most situations will be against a street brawler, someone who comes at you swinging.

---Very true! But then the experienced boxer may not be prepared to deal with the responses he would get from a Wing Chun on the inside! The Wing Chun guy just has to be able to get to the inside without getting knocked out first!

Watched a number of your videos today while watching the NBA playoffs. Do you teach Wing Chun in a traditional way for Wing Chun Boxing? Or do you teach WC application / form in a way to integrate it into boxing?

For instance Lan Sau. You can apply this when you’re in tight to get some distance to lunch or you can use it to keep distance from your opponent.

 

[KPM]

Watched a number of your videos today while watching the NBA playoffs. Do you teach Wing Chun in a traditional way for Wing Chun Boxing? Or do you teach WC application / form in a way to integrate it into boxing?

For instance Lan Sau. You can apply this when you’re in tight to get some distance to lunch or you can use it to keep distance from your opponent.

I've done both. Over the winter I taught pretty "classical" Ku Lo Wing Chun to my guys just so they would have a sense of where the Wing Chun was coming from. But its more efficient to just teach boxing fundamentals and mechanics and then start adapting various Wing Chun techniques to that. Ku Lo Wing Chun is taught in short forms or "San Sik", rather than the longer forms most people are familiar with. So it is relatively easy to change the core mechanics in those short forms to boxing mechanics and still do essentially the same techniques and applications. I don't think other versions of Wing Chun would be as directly adaptable to "Wing Chun Boxing."

 

[macher]

I've done both. Over the winter I taught pretty "classical" Ku Lo Wing Chun to my guys just so they would have a sense of where the Wing Chun was coming from. But its more efficient to just teach boxing fundamentals and mechanics and then start adapting various Wing Chun techniques to that. Ku Lo Wing Chun is taught in short forms or "San Sik", rather than the longer forms most people are familiar with. So it is relatively easy to change the core mechanics in those short forms to boxing mechanics and still do essentially the same techniques and applications. I don't think other versions of Wing Chun would be as directly adaptable to "Wing Chun Boxing."

Yea from doing some research Ku Lo / Pin Sun seems more adaptable to Wing Chun Boxing. I’ve tried searching for a Ku Lo school near me and there isn’t any.

 

[wingchun100]

I have watched and enjoyed several Rackemann videos. In my own personal journey, I was attending a JKD class because my Wing Chun Sifu was out of commission due to back surgery. At the JKD class I had my eyes opened to the importance of footwork, head movement, timing, and distance. Most of these are not achieved through Chi Sao since you are already in arm's length of each other. Therefore, that rules out footwork and distance. As for head movement, we were always encouraged to NOT move our heads at all. I mean, maybe we veer off the center, but we definitely didn't do anything like ducking, bobbing, weaving, or slipping. We still developed timing of course, and footwork was developed to a certain extent because you aren't going to do Chi Sao standing in one spot, but it was not developed the way it is in Western boxing.

My stay at JKD didn't last too long, but I am glad I got to learn what I did out of it. In the meantime, I'm still looking to join a boxing gym so I can keep working on those missing pieces.

 

[Martial D]

I have watched and enjoyed several Rackemann videos. In my own personal journey, I was attending a JKD class because my Wing Chun Sifu was out of commission due to back surgery. At the JKD class I had my eyes opened to the importance of footwork, head movement, timing, and distance. Most of these are not achieved through Chi Sao since you are already in arm's length of each other. Therefore, that rules out footwork and distance. As for head movement, we were always encouraged to NOT move our heads at all. I mean, maybe we veer off the center, but we definitely didn't do anything like ducking, bobbing, weaving, or slipping. We still developed timing of course, and footwork was developed to a certain extent because you aren't going to do Chi Sao standing in one spot, but it was not developed the way it is in Western boxing.

My stay at JKD didn't last too long, but I am glad I got to learn what I did out of it. In the meantime, I'm still looking to join a boxing gym so I can keep working on those missing pieces.

I have found boxing/kickboxing to have improved my WC dramatically. I am about positive WC involved a lot more head movement and footwork at some point simply because it WORKS that way. It's next to impossible to effectively use WC from a classical WC stance in my experience.

 

[TMA17]

At the JKD class I had my eyes opened to the importance of footwork, head movement, timing, and distance.

Those are crucial elements in striking. A must regardless of style. Boxing will definitely help fill in those pieces.

Bruce Lee found the same problems with WC. WC seems to be most effective in that sort of gray area.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I am about positive WC involved a lot more head movement and footwork at some point simply because it WORKS that way.

The WT I learned does place a heavy emphasis on footwork. Not so much for head movement.

The thought does raise some possibilities. Recently I've been studying Cus D'Amato's "peekaboo" boxing style. This approach is built on a stance which is much more square on than the typical boxing stance, closer to a WC approach. This stance is used to allow for serious side-to-side head movement. It would be interesting to see how I could apply a WC/WT engine along with that sort of head movement.

 

[macher]

The WT I learned does place a heavy emphasis on footwork. Not so much for head movement.

The thought does raise some possibilities. Recently I've been studying Cus D'Amato's "peekaboo" boxing style. This approach is built on a stance which is much more square on than the typical boxing stance, closer to a WC approach. This stance is used to allow for serious side-to-side head movement. It would be interesting to see how I could apply a WC/WT engine along with that sort of head movement.

The peekaboo style relies on punches that generate power from the style.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

The peekaboo style relies on punches that generate power from the style.

Yeah, I know how to generate power from the peekaboo style using western boxing body mechanics. I’d have to experiment with how to apply WC power generation from that structure. I have some ideas, but I’ll have to try them out.

 

[Martial D]

The WT I learned does place a heavy emphasis on footwork. Not so much for head movement.

The thought does raise some possibilities. Recently I've been studying Cus D'Amato's "peekaboo" boxing style. This approach is built on a stance which is much more square on than the typical boxing stance, closer to a WC approach. This stance is used to allow for serious side-to-side head movement. It would be interesting to see how I could apply a WC/WT engine along with that sort of head movement.

Yes, the wc I learned also emphasized footwork. Unfortunately it doesn't hold up too well against kickboxing footwork, and doesn't work as well with WC stuff in practicality due to rigid pody and head positioning. I get most of my WC off of slips and weaves, which don't exist in my pure WC syllabus.

 

[macher]

Yes, the wc I learned also emphasized footwork. Unfortunately it doesn't hold up too well against kickboxing footwork, and doesn't work as well with WC stuff in practicality due to rigid pody and head positioning. I get most of my WC off of slips and weaves, which don't exist in my pure WC syllabus.

Here’s an interesting video.

 

[KPM]

Fernandez is wrong about a couple of things. First...people DO fight that way on the street.....a threat or exchange of words...push someone back..... and square off at long range. That is the difference between a street fight and an actual assault.
Second....being able to bridge in from long range to get to close range to use your Wing Chun is NOT the same thing as having an actual "long range" game or being able to fight from "long range." Having a "long range game" means you can conduct the fight from long range. You have evasive fast footwork and body motion to avoid getting hit while staying just out of reach. You have the ability to dart in with powerful strikes and back out again before the opponent can do much about it. You have the ability to keep the opponent from being able to trap your arms or clinch or get into "in-fighting" mode. You have the ability to control the range or distance and keep the fight at long range....just on the edge of being able to reach with a powerful blow. Many western boxers are good at this. Many kickboxers are good at this. But this is NOT what Wing Chun was designed for. This is not Wing Chun's forte. And this is NOT what Fernandez is showing in his video.

 

[Martial D]

Here’s an interesting video.

Here's the thing about these sorts of demos; watch the other guy.

If someone throws a jab, leaves it extended, doesn't move their feet and turtles on the counter...yes, what this Sifu is doing would be effective. Good luck finding anyone that would do these things. More often than not that punch is followed by another, and another, and another, and suddenly that flaily arms extended WC attack he is doing is a prescription for getting knocked out.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

back out again before the opponent can do much about it. ... Many western boxers are good at this. ... But this is NOT what Wing Chun was designed for

I agree that CMA is not designed to move in and then back out. Many CMA systems emphasizes on move in and never back out.

If you (general YOU) have an integrated fighting skill, you don't need to back out. It makes no sense to spent so much effort to enter. You then have to back out again. IMO, this boxing solution can be used as a short term goal. The long term goal should still be kick, punch, lock, throw, and ground game integration.

The day that when your opponent moves in toward you, he suddenly finds out that he can't back out, you will know that your MA training is on the right track.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

More often than not that punch is followed by another, and another, and another,

The main question is "how to prevent your opponent from punching you over and over?"

You can

1. use footwork to maintain distance.
2. move in, establish a clinch, and disable your opponent's punching ability.

IMO, 2 > 1.

 

[Martial D]

The main question is "how to prevent your opponent from punching you over and over?"

You can

1. use footwork to maintain distance.
2. move in, establish a clinch, and disable your opponent's punching ability.

IMO, 2 > 1.

In essence, you are right.

Flying in square spamming bongsau and tansau and hoping your opponent turtles is neither one nor the other though