Wing Chun Boxing

[Martial D]

Boxing has short range concepts that transition into grappling.

Why do wing chun at all?

I mean if you have to do boxing from other ranges. Then do some sort of stand up grappling system in the clinch.

You could pretty much save yourself a system.

Fill-in in dem gaps. That and adding something that's not cookie-cutter mui-wrestle-jitsu. It's much easier to prepare for the expected!

 

[drop bear]

That’s kind of where I’ve arrived with WC and why I stopped training in it after SLT.

The thing is there is absolutely nothing stopping anyone from wing chunning in boxing. (Well except the kicks)

 

[drop bear]

Fill-in in dem gaps. That and adding something that's not cookie-cutter mui-wrestle-jitsu. It's much easier to prepare for the expected!

Cookie cutter muai wrestle jitsu is a pretty big umbrella concept though.

That is one of the things I like about MMA is you can play with these ideas. You want to trap hands to work in to a clinch. Go for it.

 

[Martial D]

Cookie cutter muai wrestle jitsu is a pretty big umbrella concept though.

That is one of the things I like about MMA is you can play with these ideas. You want to trap hands to work in to a clinch. Go for it.

Agreed, it can be enough. In fact, I would say mui-wrestle-jitsu is only the meta BECAUSE of proven effectiveness for the cage.

With that said though, more options are better than less options.

 

[macher]

I love WC. I'm very new to it and think it's a great art. However, I think styles/systems do matter despite the idea that they don't when it comes to preparing someone for a real fight. Boxing offers better footwork, better punches from numerous angles, better overall movement (such as head movement), and better training for speed and timing. Simple is often better. Bruce Lee knew this. The evidence is there. As a striking art, WC falls behind boxing for real world effectiveness. It's more complete and diverse overall, but lacks the attributes that boxing offers that win fights. Add in Muay Thai elbows/kicking to boxing and you have probably the number striking art for real world self defense. Throw in BJJ and you're pretty good to go overall.

I think what KPM, Rackemann etc. are doing is fantastic. I think the blending of arts is what everyone should do.

If you love WC and get what you want out of it, that's all that matters though. Whether it's the movements, weapons, kicking or philosophy behind that keeps you motivated in mastering it, those are great things....don't stop. However, if you want to make it more street/ring/self-defense effective, modification is likely going to be necessary.

The idea that you need to train an art for 10 years to get it work is absurd IMO. Maybe 10 years to master it, but it should be effective much sooner than that or there is something wrong with it.

Bruce Lee: "someone with only 1 year of training in boxing and wrestling can easily defeat a martial artist of 20 years of experience.”

I agree I think where WC lacks is sparring against a boxer or a street fight scenarios where punches are coming from unorthodox angles etc. WC needs to keep drilling not against WC but against Rutgers boxers or street fighting style hay maker punches.

 

[geezer]

,,,against Rutgers boxers or street fighting style hay maker punches.

Rutgers?

 

[macher]

Rutgers?

My bad typo.

 

[geezer]

My bad typo.

I thought you meant ruggers, but hey, you never know!

 

[Flying Crane]

I agree I think where WC lacks is sparring against a boxer or a street fight scenarios where punches are coming from unorthodox angles etc. WC needs to keep drilling not against WC but against Rutgers boxers or street fighting style hay maker punches.

Why do you feel these come from “unorthodox angles”?

 

[Martial D]

Why do you feel these come from “unorthodox angles”?

Not to presume to speak for him, but I think he means other than straight punches.

 

[macher]

Not to presume to speak for him, but I think he means other than straight punches.

Right. If you’re in a fight you have to learn to detect punches from all angles. This comes from drilling and sparring. I visited a couple WC schools and they don’t drill and spar real life scenarios. Not that I’ve gotten into many fights but the couple I’ve gotten into as a last resort the opponent was throwing ‘Superman’ punches and / or wild punches.

That’s why I think KPA is on the right track having a western boxing engine. Boxers learn how to detect punches and learn to defend and / or counter.

 

[KPM]

In a modern fighting context one has to be prepared to defend against punches coming rapidly from multiple angles. This is true whether the opponent has an actual boxing/kickboxing background, or is just a street punk with some fighting experience. You can expect these punches to be coming fast enough and at all kinds of angles that make it difficult to nearly impossible to block or parry them all. These leaves you with two basic strategies: 1. Charge in with your own punches and hope you can parry some of his initial blows until you can overwhelm him with your own. From a Wing Chun perspective maybe you can trap him or otherwise prevent him from continue to throw punches. 2. Fight more defensively with "covers"....like a boxer does, and watch for openings in which to throw your counters. This is more "weathering the storm" and "returning fire."

Strategy #1 can work, but typically does not defend the head well and one can easily take a shot on the way in. There is also a problem here if your opponent manages to avoid your initial onslaught or move away. Then you have to re-engage and risk taking a shot all over again. This really is an "ambush style" of fighting. You close in quick and hope to maintain control the whole time. It isn't very good for "face off"..."back and forth"....kinds of fighting. And you see this regularly when you watch clips of Wing Chun guys sparring....that is if they make an effort to actually stick to their Wing Chun!

I saw a Wing Chun sparring clip recently where one guy just charged straight in throwing wide punches from the shoulders rapidly the whole fight. He didn't even try to throw nice straight Wing Chun punches. His opponent kept the typical forward guard thinking he was going to parry things. Well, he didn't stop a single punch because they just went around his guard faster than he could respond. And he had no idea how to cover his head. So he took multiple punches to the head and was knocked down about half a dozen times. He looked like he had no defense at all because his opponent was throwing wide punches rather than nice Wing Chun centerline punches. And neither of these guys were beginners to Wing Chun!

Strategy #2 is safer, and ends up being what most people do when they spar. People will instinctively start to "cover up" when blows are coming at them fast and hard. 52 Blocks specializes in "covering up" in this kind of scenario, even more so than western boxing. But this strategy of "covering up" to "weather the storm" rather than blocking or parrying as your main defense is central to both. And this is what works best when someone is raining down fast punches from multiple angles.

So the bottom line for me.......Wing Chun would do well to learn how to use these covers and the footwork from Boxing/52 Blocks in order to manage distance and close safely with an opponent. Then when in close, the Wing Chun can kick in with sticking skills and close-range striking and controlling.

 

[macher]

In a modern fighting context one has to be prepared to defend against punches coming rapidly from multiple angles. This is true whether the opponent has an actual boxing/kickboxing background, or is just a street punk with some fighting experience. You can expect these punches to be coming fast enough and at all kinds of angles that make it difficult to nearly impossible to block or parry them all. These leaves you with two basic strategies: 1. Charge in with your own punches and hope you can parry some of his initial blows until you can overwhelm him with your own. From a Wing Chun perspective maybe you can trap him or otherwise prevent him from continue to throw punches. 2. Fight more defensively with "covers"....like a boxer does, and watch for openings in which to throw your counters. This is more "weathering the storm" and "returning fire."

Strategy #1 can work, but typically does not defend the head well and one can easily take a shot on the way in. There is also a problem here if your opponent manages to avoid your initial onslaught or move away. Then you have to re-engage and risk taking a shot all over again. This really is an "ambush style" of fighting. You close in quick and hope to maintain control the whole time. It isn't very good for "face off"..."back and forth"....kinds of fighting. And you see this regularly when you watch clips of Wing Chun guys sparring....that is if they make an effort to actually stick to their Wing Chun!

I saw a Wing Chun sparring clip recently where one guy just charged straight in throwing wide punches from the shoulders rapidly the whole fight. He didn't even try to throw nice straight Wing Chun punches. His opponent kept the typical forward guard thinking he was going to parry things. Well, he didn't stop a single punch because they just went around his guard faster than he could respond. And he had no idea how to cover his head. So he took multiple punches to the head and was knocked down about half a dozen times. He looked like he had no defense at all because his opponent was throwing wide punches rather than nice Wing Chun centerline punches. And neither of these guys were beginners to Wing Chun!

Strategy #2 is safer, and ends up being what most people do when they spar. People will instinctively start to "cover up" when blows are coming at them fast and hard. 52 Blocks specializes in "covering up" in this kind of scenario, even more so than western boxing. But this strategy of "covering up" to "weather the storm" rather than blocking or parrying as your main defense is central to both. And this is what works best when someone is raining down fast punches from multiple angles.

So the bottom line for me.......Wing Chun would do well to learn how to use these covers and the footwork from Boxing/52 Blocks in order to manage distance and close safely with an opponent. Then when in close, the Wing Chun can kick in with sticking skills and close-range striking and controlling.

Like I said previously you can only do this by sparring which the Wing Chun schools I visited lack.

If someone is coming at you with swinging punches which most fights will be the best way to defend yourself or be offensive IMO is western boxing. 52 looks good but so is how Maywesther fights. Pretty defensive but when he sees an opportunity for offense he’s there. Not that any of us can be on the same level as Mayweather but even if are somewhat ok or know how to do it a little; slipping, bobbing and weaving etc you’ll be able to weather out the storm cause your opponent will get tired and sloppy which creates opportunity.

 

[drop bear]

In a modern fighting context one has to be prepared to defend against punches coming rapidly from multiple angles. This is true whether the opponent has an actual boxing/kickboxing background, or is just a street punk with some fighting experience. You can expect these punches to be coming fast enough and at all kinds of angles that make it difficult to nearly impossible to block or parry them all. These leaves you with two basic strategies: 1. Charge in with your own punches and hope you can parry some of his initial blows until you can overwhelm him with your own. From a Wing Chun perspective maybe you can trap him or otherwise prevent him from continue to throw punches. 2. Fight more defensively with "covers"....like a boxer does, and watch for openings in which to throw your counters. This is more "weathering the storm" and "returning fire."

Strategy #1 can work, but typically does not defend the head well and one can easily take a shot on the way in. There is also a problem here if your opponent manages to avoid your initial onslaught or move away. Then you have to re-engage and risk taking a shot all over again. This really is an "ambush style" of fighting. You close in quick and hope to maintain control the whole time. It isn't very good for "face off"..."back and forth"....kinds of fighting. And you see this regularly when you watch clips of Wing Chun guys sparring....that is if they make an effort to actually stick to their Wing Chun!

I saw a Wing Chun sparring clip recently where one guy just charged straight in throwing wide punches from the shoulders rapidly the whole fight. He didn't even try to throw nice straight Wing Chun punches. His opponent kept the typical forward guard thinking he was going to parry things. Well, he didn't stop a single punch because they just went around his guard faster than he could respond. And he had no idea how to cover his head. So he took multiple punches to the head and was knocked down about half a dozen times. He looked like he had no defense at all because his opponent was throwing wide punches rather than nice Wing Chun centerline punches. And neither of these guys were beginners to Wing Chun!

Strategy #2 is safer, and ends up being what most people do when they spar. People will instinctively start to "cover up" when blows are coming at them fast and hard. 52 Blocks specializes in "covering up" in this kind of scenario, even more so than western boxing. But this strategy of "covering up" to "weather the storm" rather than blocking or parrying as your main defense is central to both. And this is what works best when someone is raining down fast punches from multiple angles.

So the bottom line for me.......Wing Chun would do well to learn how to use these covers and the footwork from Boxing/52 Blocks in order to manage distance and close safely with an opponent. Then when in close, the Wing Chun can kick in with sticking skills and close-range striking and controlling.

Yeah the Chun concept of parrying combined with front foot fighting requires you to have a head like a bessa block.

The ideas kind of work. It is the combination in which they are used that makes them break down.

I mean at least incorporating concepts like striking with head off center would raise the odds of winning and reduce a tonne of brain damage.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Strategy #1 can work, but typically does not defend the head well and one can easily take a shot on the way in.

You have to give away some of your own punching ability before you can take away some of your opponent's punching ability.

After all those years, I still believe that "rhino guard" can give you the best "head protection".

You may lose some of your striking ability. But if you have wrestling ability, your lose can be your gain.

 

[Martial D]

You have to give away some of your own punching ability before you can take away some of your opponent's punching ability

Not always. If you are good at slipping to the outside or bobbing and weaving you can end up loaded for a counter to the outside gate. You take their ability to hit you while enhancing your own in that context.

 

[macher]

In a modern fighting context one has to be prepared to defend against punches coming rapidly from multiple angles. This is true whether the opponent has an actual boxing/kickboxing background, or is just a street punk with some fighting experience. You can expect these punches to be coming fast enough and at all kinds of angles that make it difficult to nearly impossible to block or parry them all. These leaves you with two basic strategies: 1. Charge in with your own punches and hope you can parry some of his initial blows until you can overwhelm him with your own. From a Wing Chun perspective maybe you can trap him or otherwise prevent him from continue to throw punches. 2. Fight more defensively with "covers"....like a boxer does, and watch for openings in which to throw your counters. This is more "weathering the storm" and "returning fire."

Strategy #1 can work, but typically does not defend the head well and one can easily take a shot on the way in. There is also a problem here if your opponent manages to avoid your initial onslaught or move away. Then you have to re-engage and risk taking a shot all over again. This really is an "ambush style" of fighting. You close in quick and hope to maintain control the whole time. It isn't very good for "face off"..."back and forth"....kinds of fighting. And you see this regularly when you watch clips of Wing Chun guys sparring....that is if they make an effort to actually stick to their Wing Chun!

I saw a Wing Chun sparring clip recently where one guy just charged straight in throwing wide punches from the shoulders rapidly the whole fight. He didn't even try to throw nice straight Wing Chun punches. His opponent kept the typical forward guard thinking he was going to parry things. Well, he didn't stop a single punch because they just went around his guard faster than he could respond. And he had no idea how to cover his head. So he took multiple punches to the head and was knocked down about half a dozen times. He looked like he had no defense at all because his opponent was throwing wide punches rather than nice Wing Chun centerline punches. And neither of these guys were beginners to Wing Chun!

Strategy #2 is safer, and ends up being what most people do when they spar. People will instinctively start to "cover up" when blows are coming at them fast and hard. 52 Blocks specializes in "covering up" in this kind of scenario, even more so than western boxing. But this strategy of "covering up" to "weather the storm" rather than blocking or parrying as your main defense is central to both. And this is what works best when someone is raining down fast punches from multiple angles.

So the bottom line for me.......Wing Chun would do well to learn how to use these covers and the footwork from Boxing/52 Blocks in order to manage distance and close safely with an opponent. Then when in close, the Wing Chun can kick in with sticking skills and close-range striking and controlling.

I emailed Rackemann to ask about how he teaches. He said for new people he teaches them western boxing for 12 months because he said Wing Chun integrates into boxing well not boxing into Wing Chun.

 

[KPM]

I emailed Rackemann to ask about how he teaches. He said for new people he teaches them western boxing for 12 months because he said Wing Chun integrates into boxing well not boxing into Wing Chun.

He may have a point. I do think Boxing integrates well enough into Wing Chun. But the learning curve is probably faster if you start with a good boxing base and then integrate some Wing Chun into that.

 

[macher]

He may have a point. I do think Boxing integrates well enough into Wing Chun. But the learning curve is probably faster if you start with a good boxing base and then integrate some Wing Chun into that.

How are you teaching it?

 

[KPM]

How are you teaching it?

Half-way in between? I tend to do both in parallel.