Wing Chun Boxing

[anerlich]

the way this boxer punches makes me think he knows wing chung or JKD

When Prince Naseem Hamed was in his heyday, many tried to imitate his style. Just about all of them got knocked TFO. He had spent many years perfecting a proper base for his skills which allowed him to fight in such an unorthodox and seemingly risky fashion. His imitators missed that part of the memo.

Many BJJ white belts who try to attack with flying armbars and triangles (which aren't legal for white belts anymore), or berimbolos and ashi garami, suffer the same fate. They don't understand the evolution of these techniques or the serious technical backgrounds in fundamentals of the guys they are trying to emulate, like Rafa Mendes and Eddie Cummings.

 

[karatejj]

Don't forget to use Bong to

- hide your head next to it to avoid head shot.
- raise up your opponent's neck control hand.

this winh chun man, not wreslin

u can see how it uzed in KPM video, catchin the punch!!

 

[drop bear]

I put some new video lessons up today:

Iron Fist Wing Chun Boxing

Could you go sideways rather than backwards? Just backward head movement isn't cool unless you are really experienced.

I might mean you would have to foot fight like hell in that drill.

 

[KPM]

Could you go sideways rather than backwards? Just backward head movement isn't cool unless you are really experienced.

I might mean you would have to foot fight like hell in that drill.

Very true! When training the forms, I'm using an adapted version of Rick Spain's TWC forms. In the Chum Kiu form, when doing the stepping high bongs, we do them from the forward facing boxing stance and we step laterally towards the outside. That's because this is how the stepping Bong is actually going to be used! Who would ever step across with a high Bong so that the Bong is moving forward as most people do it in the form? So when we do the Bong it is almost always with a lateral step to the outside.....blindside strategy. So that is a good suggestion.....doing the Bong-Lop Da drill with a lateral step instead of "evade back." We will have to work that in. It may provide better contact and continuity. Thanks!

 

[KPM]

Here's a good article by Paul Rackemann:

Why Western Boxing is a form of Self-Defence and better than most others. - Rackemann Wing Chun

 

[JbrmWC]

I put some new video lessons up today:

Iron Fist Wing Chun Boxing

Nice..vid. The only feedback I have is that it'd be better to punch directly at the face. But, prolly not the best idea with an unfamiliar partner,lol.

 

[LFJ]

You make too many moves on your "opponent" with that final punch in the stomach. The way the drill is demonstrated you make a drill where you do bong-lop da... follow up with a punch in the stomach against a frozen opponent and then perhaps also stepping. Not sure I like the whole idea of a non-resisting opponent unless the intent is just to simply train the punch itself without any real application theory to it.

The idea that you're going to "fade back" with bong-sau, and then laap-da them is already quite a stretch.

4. Elbow down, not to the side. It seems you are intentionally opening up that stomach for an attack.

Rather than training application choreography on each other, it's more practical to train useful behaviors.

The punch to the gut could be testing the partner's (not opponent's) responsiveness, so that both arms are trained to stay active.

Instead, the punch has become the main idea as a finisher at the end of an unlikely attack sequence.
And the "opponent" is detraining responsiveness in the arm that goes dead from being pulled.

The problem is trying to make modifications to a training method that has not been understood.

 

[KPM]

The idea that you're going to "fade back" with bong-sau, and then laap-da them is already quite a stretch.

---Boxers do an "evade back" to avoid straight punches all the time. I just included the Bong Sau. Not a stretch at all. In fact, it kind of makes the standard "evade back" a little safer.


Rather than training application choreography on each other, it's more practical to train useful behaviors.

----Committing to muscle memory a fast combination that is a reaction to leading the opponent to present an opening is a useful behavior. Multiple Bong Saus over and over with switching from side to side is not.



Instead, the punch has become the main idea as a finisher at the end of an unlikely attack sequence.

---Nothing at all "unlikely" about flowing with the hand in a lower position such as a Bong Sau to a strike to the face that prompts the opponent to bring his rear up to stop it or get hit....and so leave an opening lower. That's pretty basic.


And the "opponent" is detraining responsiveness in the arm that goes dead from being pulled.

----That is a valid point. Right now we are viewing more like hitting the focus mitts, but a little more realistically since you have a real target and a real reaction from the partner. But I was only showing a very basic level drill at this point. I will likely elaborate on it later.


The problem is trying to make modifications to a training method that has not been understood.

---I understand just fine how it is used in both Pin Sun Wing Chun and TWC. But maybe not in your WSLVT since it seems to be so special and completely different from everyone else's Wing Chun!

 

[drop bear]

The idea that you're going to "fade back" with bong-sau, and then laap-da them is already quite a stretch.



Rather than training application choreography on each other, it's more practical to train useful behaviors.

The punch to the gut could be testing the partner's (not opponent's) responsiveness, so that both arms are trained to stay active.

Instead, the punch has become the main idea as a finisher at the end of an unlikely attack sequence.
And the "opponent" is detraining responsiveness in the arm that goes dead from being pulled.

The problem is trying to make modifications to a training method that has not been understood.

Nah. To understand something. You do it. Test it. Work out what modifications you need then do it and test it again.

That way you have a system you understand. Rather than copy a system someone else understood.

So there is not so much you can't fade back. People do. But you look at whether it is going to work for your game. And the only way to really know is to try it out.

 

[LFJ]

The idea that you're going to "fade back" with bong-sau, and then laap-da them is already quite a stretch.

---Boxers do an "evade back" to avoid straight punches all the time. I just included the Bong Sau. Not a stretch at all. In fact, it kind of makes the standard "evade back" a little safer.

You included a step straight back while lifting your elbow up to shield yourself as a primary response to a straight punch then countered with laap-da, and then another follow-up.

If you try this against someone advancing with some serious punches, I think you won't get past step 1.

----Committing to muscle memory a fast combination that is a reaction to leading the opponent to present an opening is a useful behavior.

Only if it were a practical combination. I don't think it is.

Multiple Bong Saus over and over with switching from side to side is not.

Of course not, if you don't know why you're doing it.

---Nothing at all "unlikely" about flowing with the hand in a lower position such as a Bong Sau to a strike to the face that prompts the opponent to bring his rear up to stop it or get hit....and so leave an opening lower. That's pretty basic.

Has this combo ever been pulled off for real, or are you just imagining it'd go as you think? (Rhetorical question)

And the "opponent" is detraining responsiveness in the arm that goes dead from being pulled.

----That is a valid point. Right now we are viewing more like hitting the focus mitts, but a little more realistically since you have a real target and a real reaction from the partner. But I was only showing a very basic level drill at this point. I will likely elaborate on it later.

It's one real reaction and then non-responsiveness.

To elaborate, are you going to make him respond to that, and then you have to do another step?

Sounds like you're on your way to making laap-sau "sections", something which you criticized as too "elaborate".

---I understand just fine how it is used in both Pin Sun Wing Chun and TWC. But maybe not in your WSLVT since it seems to be so special and completely different from everyone else's Wing Chun!

It's just that what you know from those lineages seems to be the equivalent of only knowing pun-sau and saying now you're going to make modifications to "the chi-sau drill".

 

[LFJ]

Nah. To understand something. You do it.

We're done right there, then.

You can't do something without understanding it.
Otherwise, you're just making stuff up, not actually "doing" it.

That way you have a system you understand. Rather than copy a system someone else understood.

Like WC people who make up drills for ground fighting without knowing ground fighting.
They don't understand BJJ, but they "understand" the system they're making up.

The whole process is cringeworthy to a BJJ practitioner, and the outcome is usually not good.
BJJ wasn't developed by people experimenting with something they didn't understand.

 

[karatejj]

But I was only showing a very basic level drill at this point. I will likely elaborate on it later

Please do! Awesome to see you're mastery of wing chun and a new martial are being literally created before our eyes.

 

[karatejj]

You included a step straight back while lifting your elbow up to shield yourself as a primary response to a straight punch then countered with laap-da, and then another follow-up.

If you try this against someone advancing with some serious punches, I think you won't get past step 1.

That is a good point but I think KPM has probably thought of that and has an answer for why he is doing it!

 

[drop bear]

BJJ wasn't developed by people experimenting with something they didn't understand.

Of course it was.
That is why bjj fighters used to look like this.

and now look like this.

 

[KPM]

BJJ wasn't developed by people experimenting with something they didn't understand.

What???? Anyone that has been paying any attention to MMA has seen BJJ evolve right before their very eyes over the last 15 years!!! And that was due to some trial and error in an arena that they didn't quite understand until stepping into the ring against certain kinds of fighters and having a go at it.

 

[KPM]

If you try this against someone advancing with some serious punches, I think you won't get past step 1.

---Once again, you are just being argumentative for the sake of arguing. You know very well that there are different scenarios and situations in fighting. It isn't always "advancing with some serious punches"! Not everyone charges straight in with chain punches! In a fight you have to respond to the specific situation. What I do is not a "one trick pony" as you like to describe what you do! IF someone was charging in with some serious punches I would step off the line and respond in a different way. Isn't that just common sense?


Only if it were a practical combination. I don't think it is.

----Really? You don't think ....jab, cross, hook...is a practical combination? Then I don't feel any need to further give any credibility to your criticism. It is obviously in an entirely different class compared to what Phobius had to say.

 

[DanT]

If YOUR Wing Chun doesn't have a long range game you can:

1. Ignore that
2. Mix with something else
3. Learn Wing Chun that does

MY Wing Chun, and the Wing Chun MY Sifu learned, from Wong Shun Leung, Chu Shon Tin, and Sunny Tang does. I do not need to mix. If you do then good for you, you're making your Wing Chun work, and that's what's important.

 

[LFJ]

Of course it was.
That is why bjj fighters used to look like this.

and now look like this.

What???? Anyone that has been paying any attention to MMA has seen BJJ evolve right before their very eyes over the last 15 years!!! And that was due to some trial and error in an arena that they didn't quite understand until stepping into the ring against certain kinds of fighters and having a go at it.

Who the heck said it didn't evolve? That was my point, but to say that Carlos Gracie didn't just start experimenting with techniques or training methods he didn't understand. Same with the rest of the people who have contributed to the style over the years.

Point being you do have to understand something before doing it, otherwise you're not actually doing it, and whatever adaptations you try to make to what you don't understand will probably not be good, like WC ground fighting.

 

[LFJ]

If you try this against someone advancing with some serious punches, I think you won't get past step 1.

---Once again, you are just being argumentative for the sake of arguing. You know very well that there are different scenarios and situations in fighting. It isn't always "advancing with some serious punches"! Not everyone charges straight in with chain punches!

I didn't say charging in with chain punches.

If someone wants to hit you, they will advance and throw serious punches.
They will not present one punch and let you do three things to it.

IF someone was charging in with some serious punches I would step off the line and respond in a different way. Isn't that just common sense?

Didn't say charging in. Only a fool will run past you when you "step off the line".

Only if it were a practical combination. I don't think it is.

----Really? You don't think ....jab, cross, hook...is a practical combination? Then I don't feel any need to further give any credibility to your criticism. It is obviously in an entirely different class compared to what Phobius had to say.

Where was there a jab, cross, hook? What are you talking about?

You did a step back raising bong-sau, then step forward with laap-da, and a body punch.

Unrealistic. Not comparable in the least to jab, cross, hook.

 

[drop bear]

Who the heck said it didn't evolve? That was my point, but to say that Carlos Gracie didn't just start experimenting with techniques or training methods he didn't understand. Same with the rest of the people who have contributed to the style over the years.

Point being you do have to understand something before doing it, otherwise you're not actually doing it, and whatever adaptations you try to make to what you don't understand will probably not be good, like WC ground fighting.

Nobody understood MMA. They made it up as they went along.