Wing Chun Boxing

[Juany118]

That's why I only go off personal experience and not YouTube vids,lol. Imo, in any type of sparring you should attempt to do what you'd do in a fight and the boxer should try to not let you. That's where you learn what will work or not. It's easy to bridge,the part after is where it gets complicated.

The last part actually surprised me. If I am not mistaken most people around here see the bridging part (well to bridge and remain intact) as the difficult part, getting through the "no man's land" so to speak where you then have clear openings to retaliate through.

 

[JbrmWC]

The last part actually surprised me. If I am not mistaken most people around here see the bridging part (well to bridge and remain intact) as the difficult part, getting through the "no man's land" so to speak where you then have clear openings to retaliate through.

If you give a false sense of pressure most people will instinctually try to fight against it (in terms of boxer/street fighter) and that's when you can relax and take advantage.

 

[KPM]

Hmm, sure seems to be a lot of predictable circling around out at arms' length and swatting at arms without ever closing distance and attacking center in those clips, as I often note about TWC.

Only at the very end of the first one where he does his demos does he actually move in and attack center.

Maintaining that distance allows the boxer freedom of movement so they basically trade blows. If only the boxer moved laterally to cut Cheung off and keep him in front of him...

Now I DID NOT post this as fodder for you to criticize and start a fight about! Get over yourself!!! Stop just looking for things to criticize and argue about!

 

[Juany118]

If you give a false sense of pressure most people will instinctually try to fight against it (in terms of boxer/street fighter) and that's when you can relax and take advantage.

That CAN work in street fighting (my main experience in using WC and Kali) but the thing is one can become over reliant on such an assumption. What you just said there actually reminds me of n issue in Aikido (the other art I am most familiar with). Even thought the Aikido I studied, Yoshinkan Aikido, is FAR closer to the Aiki-Jujutsu origins of Aikido, some practitioners would rely too much on Aiki (simple form, the "bad guy" providing you with the energy to throw them) vs the simple principles of leverage and position that are also present in the art but more commonly seen in Judo. In short you need to enter assuming the opponent will not fight instinctively but tactically.

 

[KPM]

I agree,there were also many missed opportunities by Cheung. The first time he bridged it should have been over. IMO,sparring to where you just throw stuff back and forth creates bad habits and defeats the purpose of WC.

Guys. This was light sparring. Essentially "playing around." I did not post this as a way to bring criticism down on GM Cheung. I posted this to show that he himself does fight with a center-held Man/Wu guard position. You can't really conclude anything else from this.

 

[JbrmWC]

That CAN work in street fighting (my main experience in using WC and Kali) but the thing is one can become over reliant on such an assumption. What you just said there actually reminds me of n issue in Aikido (the other art I am most familiar with). Even thought the Aikido I studied, Yoshinkan Aikido, is FAR closer to the Aiki-Jujutsu origins of Aikido, some practitioners would rely too much on Aiki (simple form, the "bad guy" providing you with the energy to throw them) vs the simple principles of leverage and position that are also present in the art but more commonly seen in Judo. In short you need to enter assuming the opponent will not fight instinctively but tactically.

I'd never assume either, you figure that out as you go. Your opponent will let you know how they fight by the way they fight. I'd also like to say it's refreshing to be able to debate and share ideas without the bs of most forums.

 

[KPM]

I haven't but he does illustrate one of the things I was talking about in terms of "people don't really fight that way." You have to look full screen but you will see that often the "perfect" man and wu aren't there as he has his hands either fully or partially in a fist while his arms still protect the centerline.

Ok. So he closed his hands a few times. That isn't the same thing as using the guard the way Victor was talking about on his video.

 

[Juany118]

Guys. This was light sparring. Essentially "playing around." I did not post this as a way to bring criticism down on GM Cheung. I posted this to show that he himself does fight with a center-held Man/Wu guard position. You can't really conclude anything else from this.

Yeah, you want to see what happens in a "real" spar I think the MUSU fights I have posted previously with Sifu Jerry Devone are a better example because people get KO'd and such.

 

[JbrmWC]

Guys. This was light sparring. Essentially "playing around." I did not post this as a way to bring criticism down on GM Cheung. I posted this to show that he himself does fight with a center-held Man/Wu guard position. You can't really conclude anything else from this.

My point was not to criticize but share the way I go about things. I understand the point of the vid and no dissrespect to Cheung was intended.

 

[Juany118]

I'd never assume either, you figure that out as you go. Your opponent will let you know how they fight by the way they fight. I'd also like to say it's refreshing to be able to debate and share ideas without the bs of most forums.

The thing is a real fight, on the street, is such a blur you don't have time to have your opponent "let you" know (at least consciously) how to do it. I stated elsewhere that I know my WC works in bridging but once I am in the "spot" where I can control/knock out I honestly couldn't tell you if I used WC, Aikido or Kali. All I know is who ended up on top when it is all said and done.

On the street, just my experience, you don't have the testing that happens in sparring or the ring. You don't have the definitive goals of points, KO and/or TKO. The person you are fighting basically wants to destroy you by going all in, stun you, again, by going all in so they can escape, or they dance between the two depending on how the scenario progresses but it's always "all in" on their part so you have to go "all in" on your part if you have decided "hands on" is the only option.

 

[JbrmWC]

The thing is a real fight, on the street, is such a blur you don't have time to have your opponent "let you" know (at least consciously) how to do it. I stated elsewhere that I know my WC works in bridging but once I am in the "spot" where I can control/knock out I honestly couldn't tell you if I used WC, Aikido or Kali. All I know is who ended up on top when it is all said and done.

On the street, just my experience, you don't have the testing that happens in sparring or the ring. You don't have the definitive goals of points, KO and/or TKO. The person you are fighting basically wants to destroy you by going all in, stun you, again, by going all in so they can escape, or they dance between the two depending on how the scenario progresses but it's always "all in" on their part so you have to go "all in" on your part if you have decided "hands on" is the only option.

All in is instinct...just saying

 

[KPM]

The thing is a real fight, on the street, is such a blur you don't have time to have your opponent "let you" know (at least consciously) how to do it. .

And that is why some refer to Wing Chun as an "ambush style" intended for close quarters and an exchange that lasts only seconds!

 

[JbrmWC]

And that is why some refer to Wing Chun as an "ambush style" intended for close quarters and an exchange that lasts only seconds!

Yes

 

[Juany118]

All in is instinct...just saying

Not the way my mind works and what I have encountered (admittedly my encounters being arrest encounters is a different dynamic than what we usually think of in terms of "fighting"). "All in" is simply about the level of initial commitment. Before you "pull the trigger" so to speak you are still looking at your opponent, trying to decide where he is weakest and the best manner in which to exploit said weakness in the context of the goal you have chosen (destroy, escape, control etc). It's just that once you decide it's time to enter you don't test.

To me instinct is simply reacting. You don't have a plan and your goal may even be uncertain when the street encounter starts because you haven't committed one way or the other (such as in a typical "bar" confrontation that escalates.)

 

[JbrmWC]

Not really, at least the way my mind works and what I have encountered (admittedly my encounters being arrest encounters is a different dynamic than what we usually think of in terms of "fighting"). "All in" is simply about the level of initial commitment. Before you "pull the trigger" so to speak you are still looking at your opponent, trying to decide where he is weakest and the best manner in which to exploit said weakness in the context of the goal you have chosen (destroy, escape, control etc). It's just that once you decide it's time to enter you don't test.

I never said test. If a guy throws a wild right it's obviously instinctual and no tactics. If he sets up in a stance it's obviously tactical. Not to say that I would,But if I come down with a hard hammer fist both guys will throw an arm up to block it.

 

[Juany118]

Ok. So he closed his hands a few times. That isn't the same thing as using the guard the way Victor was talking about on his video.

I think GM Cheung is showing though what I pointed to your video confusing me about. GM Cheung is using footwork that allows him to still protect his center without widening his guard. Victor appeared to stop using the footwork to try and flank and basically was using the widened guard to make the "up the middle" approach work. It was the sudden devolution of Victor's footwork that was the source of my confusion.

 

[Juany118]

,But if I come down with a hard hammer fist both guys will throw an arm up to block it.

Or simply step to the side as they guide it away. I admit I work in a BAD place and there are people that, while never formally trained, have spent most of their teenage and all of their adult lives in and out of prison. They can easily have just as good of a plan as any of us do with the formal training we may have. So while we may look at their technique and call it primitive there is a method to the madness.

 

[brammerd]

the way this boxer punches makes me think he knows wing chung or JKD

 

[KPM]

^^^^^ That's because he often has a relatively upright stance with his shoulders squared to his opponent. His punches are often pretty straight...almost "centerline" punches. I've always thought Alexis Arguello looked somewhat like Wing Chun for the exact same reasons!

 

[Juany118]

^^^^^ That's because he often has a relatively upright stance with his shoulders squared to his opponent. His punches are often pretty straight...almost "centerline" punches. I've always thought Alexis Arguello looked somewhat like Wing Chun for the exact same reasons!

The thing is this is actually an example of parallel evolution. It's a WC punch but it is also the Jack Dempsey "falling step" punch. Not the best video but, short form, it's the modern evolution of the bare knuckled boxing Dempsey started with...