Wing Chun Boxing

[DanT]

So we know one style of wing chun is functional. and lets put this open tournament at a mabye as I know nothing about it.

And does alan orr cross-train in boxing?

No his stand up is completely Wing Chun.

 

[JbrmWC]

I think it's more important to understand yourself before trying to understand an art. Lots of things work for lots of people,but until you've put yourself into the right situations you'll never truly understand what will work or not.

 

[DanT]

I put some new video lessons up today:

Iron Fist Wing Chun Boxing

I actually agree with a majority of the points you make in your video series in general. The Wing Chun that I was taught is similar in nature, as that is what my Sifu learned. I would say in general the difference is:

-we always keep two feet in a straight line to protect the groin

-we use the outside techniques to hopefully result in a pin or trap

-we don't lean if not nessessary

-bong lap da is with a punch not a backfist for us

I like how dynamic your footwork is. I like the blindside strategy a lot and that is something I was always taught. We do the same. The thing is, what you created is what I've been taught (with minor variations), and what my Sifu was taught. It's great that you're making your Wing Chun work.

 

[KPM]

I did.

In your "application" version, you did the same combo as I just described, but added another unchallenged punch to the other side.

That's even more impractical coming off your unrealistic setup.
You will not get past the step back bong-wu "don't hit me" shield.

Even if you do, the rest of your mutli-step follow ups are not going to go unchallenged.

Jab, cross, hook can certainly work, but not this convoluted "Wing Chun Boxing" application.

Now you are the one that obviously doesn't know what you are talking about, as you tell me so often!

 

[KPM]

Hey KPM do you understand wing chun?

Yeah, I understand Wing Chun just fine. But maybe not LFJ's version, since it seems to be so different and extra special. And I have studied boxing....in the form of Panantukan.... which gives a little better insight in how it can be used as a martial art.

 

[Juany118]

I actually agree with a majority of the points you make in your video series in general. The Wing Chun that I was taught is similar in nature, as that is what my Sifu learned. I would say in general the difference is:

-we always keep two feet in a straight line to protect the groin

-we use the outside techniques to hopefully result in a pin or trap

-we don't lean if not nessessary

-bong lap da is with a punch not a backfist for us

I like how dynamic your footwork is. I like the blindside strategy a lot and that is something I was always taught. We do the same. The thing is, what you created is what I've been taught (with minor variations), and what my Sifu was taught. It's great that you're making your Wing Chun work.

And this is largely my issue. I think the thing is, in any TMA we always bring a bit of ourselves along for the ride. This applies to Sifus as well. So, when you have a conceptual art like WC, you can even have two Sifu's appearing to teach a slightly different art. Not only due to other experience but simply different teaching methods. One might say "this is how we can apply <insert art here> to WC principles" when another will just say "no one actually stands in the stance for real fighting, move naturally within the principles of WC."

 

[drop bear]

Yeah, I understand Wing Chun just fine. But maybe not LFJ's version, since it seems to be so different and extra special. And I have studied boxing....in the form of Panantukan.... which gives a little better insight in how it can be used as a martial art.

There we go then.

Maybe we can move on to discussing how to more effectively crack heads.

 

[drop bear]

No his stand up is completely Wing Chun.

But not VT. Cos I see the banned rotational punches and hooks there.

 

[Juany118]

@KPM honest question. Looking at lesson 4 you relate a body shot to a tan sau in SLT. Now the argument has been made that in BJ you see a high cover, you said that wasn't "right". Yet in the video you are justifying a body shot with the tan in the form.

Let me clarify by saying I agree with you. I have explained to people that a punch or palm strike can incidentally intercept an opponents strike and it's a tan because of the arm/elbow position (the hand is incidental imo). So I am confused because you seem to say on one hand "this guy is taking the idea of WC as a conceptual art too far" when you appear to be making a similarly conceptual conclusion in your videos.

I am actually enjoying watching your videos btw, that video simply confused me a bit when I compare it to the debate we have been having on the forums here.

 

[DanT]

But not VT. Cos I see the banned rotational punches and hooks there.

Nothing is banned. Hook punches and rotational punches are Wing Chun techniques. They are delivered differently compared to other martial arts however.

 

[Juany118]

Nothing is banned. Hook punches and rotational punches are Wing Chun techniques. They are delivered differently compared to other martial arts however.

I'll just address the hook punch. Often you will see a "western boxer" simply rotate at the waist to throw a hook punch. I am taught to throw a hook punch (we call it a "buffalo punch") but I will, for lack of a better term, also step into it, vs simply rotating at the waist. In this way my "hook" doesn't cross my personal centerline and in doing so I still maintain my gates. That is TWC though and more than a few who fall under YMWC will say I don't do YMWC.

 

[anerlich]

Often you will see a "western boxer" simply rotate at the waist to throw a hook punch.

I don't think I've ever seen a western boxer do this. The move comes from a rotation on the ball of the front foot (for a lead hook) - "like crushing peanuts", according to one coach - and the hip leads the movement, snapping the shoulder and the rest of the hook after it. There is little waist rotation IMO. A good boxer can step or not step in as well.

 

[KPM]

Looking at lesson 4 you relate a body shot to a tan sau in SLT. Now the argument has been made that in BJ you see a high cover, you said that wasn't "right". Yet in the video you are justifying a body shot with the tan in the form.

----With that Tan you don't have to bring in a lot of conceptual twists and turns to justify it being a punch. With the Tan, you simply close your hand into a fist and you can feel that it is a valid punch. Same thing with the Bong. No great stretch of imagination needed! And the "bouncing punch" from most Ip Man WCK versions of the Chum Kiu form is essentially that....a Tan Sau as a punch. Same with the Bong being an overhand punch. Many Ip Man WCK versions of Biu Jee have this punch in the form without going to conceptual convolutions to justify it.


So I am confused because you seem to say on one hand "this guy is taking the idea of WC as a conceptual art too far" when you appear to be making a similarly conceptual conclusion in your videos.

---So that "bouncing punch" from Chum Kiu IS a body shot and one could say that it is "pure" WC. Same with the punch from the Biu Jee form. But notice that in my video lesson I only pointed out that the punches that we are using from boxing are very close to punches that are already part of Wing Chun. I never did a boxing punch and claimed it was "pure Wing Chun."

---You'll see the same when I do the video lesson on boxing defenses. I will show a high cover, low cover, inward deflection etc. and show that there are corresponding things in Wing Chun already. But you won't see my doing a high cover or a low cover and then claiming that it is "pure Wing Chun" and has nothing at all to do with boxing!

 

[KPM]

Nothing is banned. Hook punches and rotational punches are Wing Chun techniques. They are delivered differently compared to other martial arts however.

Drop Bear has simply resorted to the same short hand that LFJ uses. When he wrote "VT" he meant LFJ's version of Wing Chun, which we all now know is completely different from everyone else's Wing Chun and is extra special!

 

[Juany118]

I don't think I've ever seen a western boxer do this. The move comes from a rotation on the ball of the front foot (for a lead hook) - "like crushing peanuts", according to one coach - and the hip leads the movement, snapping the shoulder and the rest of the hook after it. There is little waist rotation IMO. A good boxer can step or not step in as well.

Apologies, I sometimes say waist, when I mean hip movement. I don't know where I picked up that bad habit. Thank you for correcting me.

 

[karatejj]

Yeah, I understand Wing Chun just fine. But maybe not LFJ's version, since it seems to be so different and extra special. And I have studied boxing....in the form of Panantukan.... which gives a little better insight in how it can be used as a martial art.

It is clear you have studied boxing, you're examples are awesome and an inspiration!!

Why do you think LFJ's wing chun is different. Looking at it seems different, but why? I have asked him but got no answer?

 

[karatejj]

OMG !!!

Are you guys using hooks and uppercuts, don't let the VT purists hear you making your Wing Chun more practical than theirs .

For sure sifu KPM is making a great new thing combine boxing and wing chun. But I thinkLFJ gave good reason said his wing chun does not using hooks and uppercuts? Seemed to make sense to me?

What I am not understanding is why is LFJ wing chun looking so different to standard wing chun?

 

[Juany118]

It is clear you have studied boxing, you're examples are awesome and an inspiration!!

Why do you think LFJ's wing chun is different. Looking at it seems different, but why? I have asked him but got no answer?

That is an interesting question with 4 potential answers, I won't judge which one is correct.
1. Some say that a few of YM's students were taught the "true" version of YMWC/VT
2. YM taught his first generation students to their strengths and weaknesses.
3. They modified what they were taught based on their own experiences in the roof top fighting culture.
4 a combination of 2 and 3.

You will have a hard time finding a consensus.

 

[karatejj]

That is an interesting question with 4 potential answers, I won't judge which one is correct.
1. Some say that a few of YM's students were taught the "true" version of YMWC/VT
2. YM taught his first generation students to their strengths and weaknesses.
3. They modified what they were taught based on their own experiences in the roof top fighting culture.
4 a combination of 2 and 3.

You will have a hard time finding a consensus.

But dude is like complete different thing, like oil and water don't mix. 2, 3, 4 don't make much sense when whole different animal. So which is the real wing chun?? I am confused.

 

[Juany118]

But dude is like complete different thing, like oil and water don't mix. 2, 3, 4 don't make much sense when whole different animal. So which is the real wing chun?? I am confused.

Not really, TWC can be similar in some respects. Thing is if you know YMWC you can see where things are the same and where they divert in terms of fighting. The similarities, at least imo, out weigh the differences once the fists fly.