drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
People test in street fights. Police test in street fights. If Juanny doesn't test it is because he is choosing not to.
Wing Chun Boxing
- Thread starter KPM
- Start date
People test in street fights. Police test in street fights. If Juanny doesn't test it is because he is choosing not to.
Juany118
Senior Master
First the majority of "street fights", I hate the term btw, aren't "fights". They are assualts, robberies etc. A person who is looking for revenge on an imagined slight (assault) doesn't test, they attack. A robber doesn't physically test (with jabs and the like). They say "hand me your money" and if they don't get compliance, they strike.
It is similar in an arrest scenario. If I tell someone to "put their hands behind their back" and they strike out or start to resist in another fashion I am not stepping back and physically "testing" them, I am trusting my initial observations as to their strengths and weaknesses via the tells they gave during the verbal encounter and am moving immediately for control.
If you can find a single LEO on this forum (and there are a bunch of us) who, if they can't go to a tool, is going to start the type of physical testing we are talking about here; jabs, feints etc, I would be interesting to hear their methodology. I have all the respect in the world for what you do because a bouncer can take at least as many knocks as I do for less money and crappier benefits btw.
In my experience a good LEO, hell a good Street fighter, does most, if not all, of their testing while they are talking. You use your eyes, see how they are standing, watch their body language as you make specific statements etc. That is the "testing" in an assault/robbery/arrest encounter at least. If you physically test in those scenarios, unless you are in a very enclosed space, you say "yes please, run away" and that seriously reduces the chance of achieving the goal.
Why not? Though light, it is free sparring filmed for the purpose of showing the differences in strategy and tactics between WB and TWC.
I'm not looking to fight or saying anything offensive. I'm just confused as to why I see the same thing from TWC all the time, despite TWC practitioners telling me they do something different.
I say TWC always maintains distance and circles around at arms' length, focusing on the opponent's arms while allowing them space for freedom of movement, as opposed to cutting in, eating space, and unbalancing the opponent while attacking center.
TWC practitioners tell me they do the latter, but we always see the opposite, which is what we see here in light sparring from the man himself.
Conceptually speaking. I think a lot of people miss the point that WC is a baiting style MA. It's design is to bring your opponent closer, but most people won't allow it which defeats its purpose. I mostly see people trying to stop the advance on the outer limits of contact.
I've got the "Wing Chun Boxing" project underway! Check out my youtube channel and subscribe if you are interested enough to follow on with what we are working on. I'll be putting up lessons as we go.
Iron Fist Wing Chun Boxing
Iron Fist Wing Chun Boxing
Thanks for showing those videos.
Just as a remark. When displaying basic punches you have a twist in your knee. From that angle this looks very unhealthy. Was it just from extended movie making or were you actually twisting that knee while doing jab and just a slight twist while doing cross? Just be careful with those knees. They need to last a lifetime. (Edit: I am aware that it could just be bad angle, but still wanted to highlight it just in case)
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
The concept is like jackals taking down a Buffalo.
Here is a good clip of Sifu Mark Phillips doing some Wing Chun Boxing:
[WING CHUN EXPERIMENT] DOES Pak Sao REALLY Work Against Jab Cross Punches?
[WING CHUN EXPERIMENT] DOES Pak Sao REALLY Work Against Jab Cross Punches?
It is great that you display the progress of your Wing Chun boxing and by doing so I assume you dont mind some feedback.
Some things I noticed with your bong-lop da drill.
1. You remove the flow of the bong-lop da drill and treat it as a "I move and you wait" kind of drill. To me the force pushing the hand of the opponent is what gives that spring force causing you to receive an attack back when letting go. Sensitivity in the drill, I do not see any of that in this drill. Which is perfectly fine, but it is a remark to better understand my feedback and reject it if my base differs too much to yours.
2. Now this is where I have more of an objection. You make too many moves on your "opponent" with that final punch in the stomach. The way the drill is demonstrated you make a drill where you do bong-lop da... follow up with a punch in the stomach against a frozen opponent and then perhaps also stepping. Not sure I like the whole idea of a non-resisting opponent unless the intent is just to simply train the punch itself without any real application theory to it.
3. You opponent is learning to have two hands in contact with one of yours. Instead of the opponent being aggressive and having is intent on attacking you it seems he is focued on your arm instead. This is noticed when you punch in stomach. What are his hands doing there? Is that the actually response you want people to learn as a reflex?
4. Elbow down, not to the side. It seems you are intentionally opening up that stomach for an attack.
Of course this is all hypothetical(sp?) and I have not tried your drill and have a terrible eye for these things still. I prefer sensing it myself to properly understand. It just feels like you are leaving that stomach area quite open. So feel free to argue or ignore this message. I just feel any uploaded video deserves honest feedback.
Just a final question, you want to integrate boxing techniques for long range fighting game. Why even bother doing modified chi-sau drills with boxing techniques. It is not at all what has made boxers so great at long range. I am just worried that you seem to remove the aspect of Wing Chun and yet trying to maintain some training to create a close range boxer rather than adding a long range game using boxing techniques to a close range defined Wing Chun style.
Feels like you might also need to change the entire training method if you want to incorporate long range boxing for your students. Maybe you already have and this is just experimental videos so once more I am not judging. Just raising questions as I see them.
If I am not curious I would just simply ignore your movies and not take the time to go through them in depth.
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It is great that you display the progress of your Wing Chun boxing and by doing so I assume you dont mind some feedback.
---Good feedback is welcome! Harsh judgmental criticism not so much.
1. You remove the flow of the bong-lop da drill and treat it as a "I move and you wait" kind of drill.
---You are right. My student doesn't have this drill down well at all yet. I probably should have waited until he could do it smoothly with me. But I've just started showing this to them. I'll probably swap this video out with a better one later on when we can make it look sharper.
To me the force pushing the hand of the opponent is what gives that spring force causing you to receive an attack back when letting go. Sensitivity in the drill, I do not see any of that in this drill. Which is perfectly fine, but it is a remark to better understand my feedback and reject it if my base differs too much to yours.
---No, point taken! We were definitely loosing some of the continuity of the drill by not maintaining good contact. That will get better as my guys learn it.
2. Now this is where I have more of an objection. You make too many moves on your "opponent" with that final punch in the stomach. The way the drill is demonstrated you make a drill where you do bong-lop da... follow up with a punch in the stomach against a frozen opponent and then perhaps also stepping. Not sure I like the whole idea of a non-resisting opponent unless the intent is just to simply train the punch itself without any real application theory to it.
---That's an interesting comment, given how elaborate many Wing Chun lineages get with this drill! I thought what we did was pretty simple and straight-forward in comparison! But it isn't too many moves. The idea is that the Bong & Lop with the backhand motion sets him up. If he doesn't respond he gets hit in the face. But when he puts his hand up to stop the strike he leaves an opening and gets hit in the solar plexus instead. It's quick and not complicated it all. If flows nicely just like any boxing combination. He is resisting when he throws the hand up to stop the punch. And notice that we are actually close enough that all of those strikes can land! This is unlike how this drill is done in a lot of Ip Man lineages where you are standing back from the partner and neither one of you are actually within real striking range.
3. You opponent is learning to have two hands in contact with one of yours. Instead of the opponent being aggressive and having is intent on attacking you it seems he is focued on your arm instead. This is noticed when you punch in stomach. What are his hands doing there? Is that the actually response you want people to learn as a reflex?
----I see what you are saying. The way we are doing the drill, he isn't really reinforcing a good response to the Bong-Lop Da. He is just falling right into to the trap the drill is meant to create. So I guess you could say we are using the drill to really commit actions of the guy doing the Bong-Lop and strike to muscle memory but not so much the defender's actions. But if you think about it, we are doing 2 steps in our basic drill. Most Wing Chun people only do 1.....Bong & Lop and partner stops your punch....1 step. We could do that as well by leaving out the punch to the solar plexus. I guess I skipped a step in showing the drill and should have done the even more basic 1 step drill first....like most people do.
4. Elbow down, not to the side. It seems you are intentionally opening up that stomach for an attack.
----Even with the elbow down there is going to be a gap that is easy enough to punch through. And besides, we train with the idea that if we ever use this....it won't be against a trained Wing Chun guy that is good at keep his elbows down and holding centerline.
So feel free to argue or ignore this message. I just feel any uploaded video deserves honest feedback.
---No, thanks for the feedback! Good things to think about!
Just a final question, you want to integrate boxing techniques for long range fighting game. Why even bother doing modified chi-sau drills with boxing techniques. It is not at all what has made boxers so great at long range. I am just worried that you seem to remove the aspect of Wing Chun and yet trying to maintain some training to create a close range boxer rather than adding a long range game using boxing techniques to a close range defined Wing Chun style.
----Well, like I explained in my intro video on the page, and I think higher up in this thread....there is a spectrum. On one end someone could do "classical" Wing Chun unchanged when in close, and only do Boxing things at long range as you say. I think Mark Phillips is a fairly good example of that. On the other end of the spectrum you can basically have boxing, but add in Wing Chun "hands" when in close to expand defensive abilities as well as working some Chi Sau skills from some of the drills. I think Paul Rackemann is a good example of this. I'm trying to be more in the middle....a good hybrid of both Wing Chun and Boxing. So I'm still using most of the Wing Chun drills and still doing the Wing Chun forms. But I've changed the mechanics to use the boxing "engine". So I'm sure it will be a trade off. This will make some of the Boxing better and some worse and likewise some of the Wing Chun better and some worse. But its all fun!
---Good feedback is welcome! Harsh judgmental criticism not so much.
1. You remove the flow of the bong-lop da drill and treat it as a "I move and you wait" kind of drill.
---You are right. My student doesn't have this drill down well at all yet. I probably should have waited until he could do it smoothly with me. But I've just started showing this to them. I'll probably swap this video out with a better one later on when we can make it look sharper.
To me the force pushing the hand of the opponent is what gives that spring force causing you to receive an attack back when letting go. Sensitivity in the drill, I do not see any of that in this drill. Which is perfectly fine, but it is a remark to better understand my feedback and reject it if my base differs too much to yours.
---No, point taken! We were definitely loosing some of the continuity of the drill by not maintaining good contact. That will get better as my guys learn it.
2. Now this is where I have more of an objection. You make too many moves on your "opponent" with that final punch in the stomach. The way the drill is demonstrated you make a drill where you do bong-lop da... follow up with a punch in the stomach against a frozen opponent and then perhaps also stepping. Not sure I like the whole idea of a non-resisting opponent unless the intent is just to simply train the punch itself without any real application theory to it.
---That's an interesting comment, given how elaborate many Wing Chun lineages get with this drill! I thought what we did was pretty simple and straight-forward in comparison!
But it isn't too many moves. The idea is that the Bong & Lop with the backhand motion sets him up. If he doesn't respond he gets hit in the face. But when he puts his hand up to stop the strike he leaves an opening and gets hit in the solar plexus instead. It's quick and not complicated it all. If flows nicely just like any boxing combination. He is resisting when he throws the hand up to stop the punch. And notice that we are actually close enough that all of those strikes can land! This is unlike how this drill is done in a lot of Ip Man lineages where you are standing back from the partner and neither one of you are actually within real striking range.3. You opponent is learning to have two hands in contact with one of yours. Instead of the opponent being aggressive and having is intent on attacking you it seems he is focued on your arm instead. This is noticed when you punch in stomach. What are his hands doing there? Is that the actually response you want people to learn as a reflex?
----I see what you are saying. The way we are doing the drill, he isn't really reinforcing a good response to the Bong-Lop Da. He is just falling right into to the trap the drill is meant to create. So I guess you could say we are using the drill to really commit actions of the guy doing the Bong-Lop and strike to muscle memory but not so much the defender's actions. But if you think about it, we are doing 2 steps in our basic drill. Most Wing Chun people only do 1.....Bong & Lop and partner stops your punch....1 step. We could do that as well by leaving out the punch to the solar plexus. I guess I skipped a step in showing the drill and should have done the even more basic 1 step drill first....like most people do.
4. Elbow down, not to the side. It seems you are intentionally opening up that stomach for an attack.
----Even with the elbow down there is going to be a gap that is easy enough to punch through. And besides, we train with the idea that if we ever use this....it won't be against a trained Wing Chun guy that is good at keep his elbows down and holding centerline.
So feel free to argue or ignore this message. I just feel any uploaded video deserves honest feedback.
---No, thanks for the feedback! Good things to think about!
Just a final question, you want to integrate boxing techniques for long range fighting game. Why even bother doing modified chi-sau drills with boxing techniques. It is not at all what has made boxers so great at long range. I am just worried that you seem to remove the aspect of Wing Chun and yet trying to maintain some training to create a close range boxer rather than adding a long range game using boxing techniques to a close range defined Wing Chun style.
----Well, like I explained in my intro video on the page, and I think higher up in this thread....there is a spectrum. On one end someone could do "classical" Wing Chun unchanged when in close, and only do Boxing things at long range as you say. I think Mark Phillips is a fairly good example of that. On the other end of the spectrum you can basically have boxing, but add in Wing Chun "hands" when in close to expand defensive abilities as well as working some Chi Sau skills from some of the drills. I think Paul Rackemann is a good example of this. I'm trying to be more in the middle....a good hybrid of both Wing Chun and Boxing. So I'm still using most of the Wing Chun drills and still doing the Wing Chun forms. But I've changed the mechanics to use the boxing "engine". So I'm sure it will be a trade off. This will make some of the Boxing better and some worse and likewise some of the Wing Chun better and some worse. But its all fun!
Really, at the level we are working it now its mostly about training the guy doing the Bong as a defense to flow right into the Lop and strike to set up the punch to the mid-section and right into the shovel hook to the ribs. Just a like a boxing combo....jab, cross, hook. But in this Wing Chun Boxing context it becomes....Bong/Lop Da, cross, hook. And this can be done defensively....an opponent throws a punch that crosses my lead arm and prompts a Bong Sau in defense that flows right into the combo. Or it can be done more offensively....the opponent is standing in his own boxing-like guard and before he can react I step into him and jam his lead arm with a Bong Sau and then flow right into the combo. I plan on doing a lesson on various uses of the Bong Sau in the future and will include this.
It is great that you display the progress of your Wing Chun boxing and by doing so I assume you dont mind some feedback.
---Good feedback is welcome! Harsh judgmental criticism not so much.
1. You remove the flow of the bong-lop da drill and treat it as a "I move and you wait" kind of drill.
---You are right. My student doesn't have this drill down well at all yet. I probably should have waited until he could do it smoothly with me. But I've just started showing this to them. I'll probably swap this video out with a better one later on when we can make it look sharper.
To me the force pushing the hand of the opponent is what gives that spring force causing you to receive an attack back when letting go. Sensitivity in the drill, I do not see any of that in this drill. Which is perfectly fine, but it is a remark to better understand my feedback and reject it if my base differs too much to yours.
---No, point taken! We were definitely loosing some of the continuity of the drill by not maintaining good contact. That will get better as my guys learn it.
2. Now this is where I have more of an objection. You make too many moves on your "opponent" with that final punch in the stomach. The way the drill is demonstrated you make a drill where you do bong-lop da... follow up with a punch in the stomach against a frozen opponent and then perhaps also stepping. Not sure I like the whole idea of a non-resisting opponent unless the intent is just to simply train the punch itself without any real application theory to it.
---That's an interesting comment, given how elaborate many Wing Chun lineages get with this drill! I thought what we did was pretty simple and straight-forward in comparison!
3. You opponent is learning to have two hands in contact with one of yours. Instead of the opponent being aggressive and having is intent on attacking you it seems he is focued on your arm instead. This is noticed when you punch in stomach. What are his hands doing there? Is that the actually response you want people to learn as a reflex?
----I see what you are saying. The way we are doing the drill, he isn't really reinforcing a good response to the Bong-Lop Da. He is just falling right into to the trap the drill is meant to create. So I guess you could say we are using the drill to really commit actions of the guy doing the Bong-Lop and strike to muscle memory but not so much the defender's actions. But if you think about it, we are doing 2 steps in our basic drill. Most Wing Chun people only do 1.....Bong & Lop and partner stops your punch....1 step. We could do that as well by leaving out the punch to the solar plexus. I guess I skipped a step in showing the drill and should have done the even more basic 1 step drill first....like most people do.
4. Elbow down, not to the side. It seems you are intentionally opening up that stomach for an attack.
----Even with the elbow down there is going to be a gap that is easy enough to punch through. And besides, we train with the idea that if we ever use this....it won't be against a trained Wing Chun guy that is good at keep his elbows down and holding centerline.
So feel free to argue or ignore this message. I just feel any uploaded video deserves honest feedback.
---No, thanks for the feedback! Good things to think about!
Just a final question, you want to integrate boxing techniques for long range fighting game. Why even bother doing modified chi-sau drills with boxing techniques. It is not at all what has made boxers so great at long range. I am just worried that you seem to remove the aspect of Wing Chun and yet trying to maintain some training to create a close range boxer rather than adding a long range game using boxing techniques to a close range defined Wing Chun style.
----Well, like I explained in my intro video on the page, and I think higher up in this thread....there is a spectrum. On one end someone could do "classical" Wing Chun unchanged when in close, and only do Boxing things at long range as you say. I think Mark Phillips is a fairly good example of that. On the other end of the spectrum you can basically have boxing, but add in Wing Chun "hands" when in close to expand defensive abilities as well as working some Chi Sau skills from some of the drills. I think Paul Rackemann is a good example of this. I'm trying to be more in the middle....a good hybrid of both Wing Chun and Boxing. So I'm still using most of the Wing Chun drills and still doing the Wing Chun forms. But I've changed the mechanics to use the boxing "engine". So I'm sure it will be a trade off. This will make some of the Boxing better and some worse and likewise some of the Wing Chun better and some worse. But its all fun!
Thanks for the response. I will gladly wait and see how this evolves. Always found it interesting to see people doing new trial and errors.
If it works you created something that makes you proud. If not you learn yourself and your students the ability to have an open mind.
Then again I am not much of a purist. Even if I credit much to WT.
