Why do TMAs have more difficulty in the ring/octagon?

[Hanzou]

Firstly I don't think you have the knowledge to label anything crap and secondly, after watching the video again, I could find nowhere where he claimed his punch was better than any other style's punch. He explained the WC punch. He didn't make any claims so what has he got to prove?

You're kidding right? Did you watch the video you linked me to?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SzBVs09-n4&app=desktop

In the first 2 minutes of the video he's saying that Wing Chun is the better punching method. This is on top of the video I posted earlier where he says that Wing Chun punches are more powerful than boxing or Karate punches.

What does he have to prove? He could start by putting his skills up against a boxer/kickboxer, and record the results. That would go a long way to add an air of legitimacy to his claims.

And again, you resort to: 'if it's not demonstrated in MMA competition it is BS'. Well as we all know, most practitioners of martial arts have no interest in competing against professional fighters and I suspect they couldn't give a rat's about what you think of their technique either.

Like I said in an earlier post; competition is the safest method to testing something out. If you're claiming that your punching method is superior to a boxer, then test it out and make it public. If you have an anti-grappling system, go to a competition and test it out against grapplers. If you're not going to test it publicly, you really shouldn't make wild baseless claims publicly.

So having addressed your questions perhaps you could have the curtesy to answer the ones that I ask you, instead of just ignoring them.

Fire away.

 

[Hanzou]

It is more the case that the guy is slightly mis representing boxing. Rather than trying to present that he has a super secret system that works but nobody has adopted. He also ignores a whole system that boxers use to avoid being punched that is also incorporated into the system of boxing.

One of the most glaring ones is that a boxer would not be standing in the pocket trading with a guy unless he is prepared to be punched a lot.

I wouldn't even say slightly. He flat out says that Wing Chun is the better method because Boxers would stand there and hit each other in the face all day.

Did you check out the vid where he said that Wing Chun punches generate more power than boxing and karate punches?

These claims would be fine if he was entering the ring and beating boxers. However since he's never going to do that, its a wild, baseless claim. Like his 300 fight record and his anti-grappling system.

 

[K-man]

You're kidding right? Did you watch the video you linked me to?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SzBVs09-n4&app=desktop

In the first 2 minutes of the video he's saying that Wing Chun is the better punching method. This is on top of the video I posted earlier where he says that Wing Chun punches are more powerful than boxing or Karate punches.

What does he have to prove? He could start by putting his skills up against a boxer/kickboxer, and record the results. That would go a long way to add an air of legitimacy to his claims.




Like I said in an earlier post; competition is the safest method to testing something out. If you're claiming that your punching method is superior to a boxer, then test it out and make it public. If you have an anti-grappling system, go to a competition and test it out against grapplers. If you're not going to test it publicly, you really shouldn't make wild baseless claims publicly.



Fire away. [/COLOR]

I watched it again and sure enough, he didn't say that WC was a better punching system. He was explaining the WC system and explaining why a boxing type punch doesn't fit the WC mould. So seeing he is not making any claim he had nothing to prove.

I have asked you a number of questions over time but one that I asked earlier was, what other MA styles have you trained, for how long and at what age?

 

[K-man]

Perhaps we could stop bagging people and styles and bring the discussion back to the OP. What appears obvious to me is that everyone has a different opinion of what defines a TMA and, just how do you classify other styles that aren't under the TMA umbrella?

 

[MJS]

I'm not "bagging" Boztepe. I'm merely disturbed by his crazy claims. It borders on ki master levels of martial silliness.

Actually there would have been a huge upside- If he had won. Clearly he didn't think he was going to win, which is why he backed out of it, and the challenge itself.

So what are his crazy claims? I have a number of his videos which I find really helpful. I also think he is among the best WC, or in his case WT, guys around. And you need to check the fine details. He didn't back out of any challenge at all. He declined the conditions imposed on him and in return offered to fight with no rules. That also was knocked back. In fact he had much to lose and nothing to gain by competing. He explained some of that in the video that was posted, if you had bothered to listen.

I'm not sure of the crazy claims either. The lengthy exchange between the Boztepe and Gracie camps is available online. It seems to me, that neither side could agree upon a neutral location. The Gracies wanted the LAPD training academy, while Boztepe said that would not be a fair site. IMHO, I would say that it was more of the Gracie side, that wasn't cooperating.

 

[MJS]

It is my position that NOT using MMA competitions to test is in no way an indictment against any particular system. As I've said before, MMA competition is not THE yardstick against which all martial arts must be tested.

Exactly. Especially considering that you could have the same person fight numerous times, and the results, ie: win/lose, will vary. I do advocate that MAists should test themselves, although that isn't a requirement, if one opts not to do it. However, I feel it's important, because I want to make sure that I can make what I do, actually work. I don't want to take the word of my teacher (not that I doubt my teachers) that because it worked for him, and his teacher, and his teachers teacher, etc., that it'll automatically work for me.

no, we are not "stuck" with that. People can do that if they wish, but they can also NOT do that if they wish.

Yup.

a collection of such news articles would tell us nothing.

Yup.

 

[MJS]

Is there a different yardstick?

How do systems test themselves these days if it isn't in the ring?

Do traditional systems keep up with changing methods of attacks? Are they taking into account that with the popularization of MMA that maybe more attackers are going to take the situation to the ground because it is now viewed as a successful strategy as opposed to a more punching oriented attacker from the media of boxers in the past?

While I do see your point, and I do advocate testing of some sort, to play devil's advocate for a moment...what if someone is not interested in competing? There has to be some sort of alternative testing venue, for lack of better words, to test yourself. Me personally...I'm not a huge fan of competing in tournaments, although I did, most recently, 2 yrs. ago, when I fought twice, in a Kyokushin tournament. I had my wife record my 2 fights. No, they're not on YT. I primarily used the recording to have a 'memory' of my 1st tournament in that style, and also as a learning tool. FWIW, I lost both fights, although I thought for sure I had the 2nd one, but it is what it is. I learned a lot and that meant more to me than anything else. Of course I wanted a win, and I'm sure my teacher would have wanted to see one of his students win too, but it wasn't in the cards that day.

I'm also going to be 41 this year. Not that I'm an old, frail man..lol...although some days I feel like it..lol...but I need to work. I can't afford to be sidelined because of an injury I got from an activity, outside of work. That fight that I fought 2yrs ago....I went for an X-ray a few days later, because I thought I broke a rib. My point is...I know and accept the fact that hard training is going to result in the typical bumps, bruises, etc., but for me, now, I'm not going to put my well being in the backseat to entering a tournament.

 

[MJS]

The smart **** doing the stupid subtitles over the video knows about as much about Wing Chun as what you do , which is bloody zero.

Go into a genuine Wing Chun school , hold a telephone book over your chest and ask them to hit it from close range.
Then come back and tell us what you think.
But you won't do that because it is just easier to jump on the band wagon and talk **** about stuff you don't understand isn't it.

LOL...funny you should mention that telephone book. Quite a few years ago, a guy I used to work out with on occasion, was training with a WC guy. So, one day, he asked me if I wanted to try out a class. I said sure. Small group, which was fine, and of course, I felt like an ***, because I really had no idea what I was doing. I came from a Kenpo background, so the footwork, movement, etc, was giving me a lot of issue. Anyways, after the class, I was talking to the teacher. I was asking questions about the art, etc., and was interested in what he was saying. As the conversation went on, he asked me about the 1 in. punch. Again, not being from a WC background, I said I'd heard about it, but that was pretty much it. He didn't use a phone book, and thankfully he didn't use his fist, but instead, his palm. Needless to say, he sent me flying. I didn't think there was any martial arts mumbo jumbo behind it. He asked me to get into a solid stance, that I felt I would be pretty stable in. It was an interesting experience to say the least.

 

[MJS]

Are you absolutely sold on the value of everything in your system? Does every technique make sound sense? Can you pull them off? You and I both walked away from kenpo because we had doubts about the training method, so I know you are a critical thinker, you don't accept things "as sifu says." I don't test the system to prove it to others, I do so to prove it to myself. Yes I can work with my students to practice different techniques, but can I pull it off when they are fully resisting? Good, and then because I know that working only with your own group can cause a bias in the testing sample, I then have to go outside the group and since I am not getting into street fights, that requires competition. Competition has taught me lessons that make me a better instructor. I see things even in my own systems that are clearly artifacts of people not pressure testing the material, going very kenpoish with a lack of resistance training, I won't do that to my students.

Oh please...come on now...you, FC and I, all know the real reason why we didn't grasp Kenpo, was because we didn't have real teachers who taught us all the secrets! LOL! Yes, I'm being a smart *** here, because that's the typical reply from some people. Anyways...all joking aside, and to answer your questions...no, not every tech makes sound sense, I can't pull them all off, and I have my share of doubts. Part of the reason why I crosstrain, is because I want to address certain gaps, although as I've said, many will say there are no gaps. Hmm...OK, well, to each their own. As for testing...as I've said, I have alternative ways, outside of competing, to test my stuff. It works for me, and I'm happy with it. IMO, pressure testing is a requirement, if one is really serious about their training.

 

[Blindside]

While I do see your point, and I do advocate testing of some sort, to play devil's advocate for a moment...what if someone is not interested in competing? There has to be some sort of alternative testing venue, for lack of better words, to test yourself. Me personally...I'm not a huge fan of competing in tournaments, although I did, most recently, 2 yrs. ago, when I fought twice, in a Kyokushin tournament. I had my wife record my 2 fights. No, they're not on YT. I primarily used the recording to have a 'memory' of my 1st tournament in that style, and also as a learning tool. FWIW, I lost both fights, although I thought for sure I had the 2nd one, but it is what it is. I learned a lot and that meant more to me than anything else. Of course I wanted a win, and I'm sure my teacher would have wanted to see one of his students win too, but it wasn't in the cards that day.

I'm also going to be 41 this year. Not that I'm an old, frail man..lol...although some days I feel like it..lol...but I need to work. I can't afford to be sidelined because of an injury I got from an activity, outside of work. That fight that I fought 2yrs ago....I went for an X-ray a few days later, because I thought I broke a rib. My point is...I know and accept the fact that hard training is going to result in the typical bumps, bruises, etc., but for me, now, I'm not going to put my well being in the backseat to entering a tournament.

If someone isn't interested in competing they shouldn't compete, but the system as a whole better have a feedback mechanism about what works and what doesn't, and part of that is testing it against people who have a different approach to fighting than your own style. I don't require my students to compete, but sparring is a regular component of the class, so that they are getting some of that feedback regularly, those of us who do compete will bring back whatever we learn. I am 42, and I am going to my second Dog Brothers Gathering in a couple of weeks, and I will continue to go to those until my body tells me I am being truly stupid, I think the learning opportunity is that important. And I realize that it isn't for everyone, it is hard to find other FMA practitioners interested in sparring an near full contact outside of my group which is why the Gatherings are so important.

 

[Reedone816]

Is this kind of test acceptable?
Using science and "dojo challenge"
Really impressed with cctv4 series "experience the real kung fu", to my opinion is better than Hong Kong tv kung fu quest series.

 

[Tez3]

Mixed Martial Arts does what it says on the tin...it's a mixture of anything that works in a fight from any martial arts style, simples. There is no one style that works better, there is no style that doesn't contain something you can use. MMA'ers who aren't necessarily fighters btw ( and if they are fighters they may fight under a variety of rules ie amateur, semi pro etc so aren't all in the UFC which while a big company is just that a company not a definition of MMA). I don't see why there is a need for a discussion on 'which TMAs work and which don't' in MMA because all of the techniques, yep all, come from one TMA or another.

 

[MJS]

If someone isn't interested in competing they shouldn't compete, but the system as a whole better have a feedback mechanism about what works and what doesn't, and part of that is testing it against people who have a different approach to fighting than your own style. I don't require my students to compete, but sparring is a regular component of the class, so that they are getting some of that feedback regularly, those of us who do compete will bring back whatever we learn. I am 42, and I am going to my second Dog Brothers Gathering in a couple of weeks, and I will continue to go to those until my body tells me I am being truly stupid, I think the learning opportunity is that important. And I realize that it isn't for everyone, it is hard to find other FMA practitioners interested in sparring an near full contact outside of my group which is why the Gatherings are so important.

I agree with what you wrote here. And just to be clear, please don't take my posts as me being anti pressure testing, anti sparring, and anti competing. That is not the case at all. I agree that one shouldn't be forced to compete, but as you said, there should be some sort of testing method in place, to ensure that it's happening. As for sparring...I love it. I've done it in Arnis and I still do it in my Kyokushin class. Given the hardcore nature of that art in general, fighting in that tourny was certainly an eye opener for me. I did enjoy it, and took the loss, as well as the bruises in stride.

Good luck in the DB event!

 

[Dirty Dog]

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[Kung Fu Wang]

I am going to my second Dog Brothers Gathering in a couple of weeks, ...

One of my guys told me his Dog Brothers experience. They like to attack from a very far distance, generate enough body momentum, charge in toward you, and then run you down. If you are not used to

- move your body outside of their attacking path, and
- take advantage on their forward commitment,

you may not be able to play their game very well.

 

[Blindside]

You can't generalize about "what Dog Brothers do," the Gatherings are groups of like minded fighters, not necessarily any particular style. Last year I fought a kempo guy, two judo/escrima guys, and a well, I don't know what the fourth guy did, it was decidedly unorthodox. The guys who earn the title of "Dog Brother" can come from any background. But I agree that the ground is a critical range, three of those four fights did hit the floor.
Sent from my Lumia 900 using Board Express

 

[Hong Kong Pooey]

What does that have to do with Boztepe?

Nothing, it was a source that you might respect making the same point i.e. competition fighting is not the same as real fighting without rules. Although he may well have picked a bad example in Randy Couture, I didn't know he was ex-army too! Thanks DB.

A point to consider regarding the whole Boztepe/Gracie spat, R Gracie could have accepted Emin's terms and put him in his place at any time but didn't. Why?

After reading the transcripts in the link kindly provided by K-Man - How the superfight got started - Sherdog Mixed Martial Arts Forums - my conclusion is that R Gracie thought he had the advantage in the usual MMA format, Emin thought he had the advantage in a real fight, and given all the to-ing and fro-ing I'd say that they agreed with each other.

Or at least that R Gracie thought he wouldn't have as big an advantage in a real fight if that's more acceptable to you.

I think its also noteworthy that Emin was the only one to accept one of the other persons offers/terms but R Gracie then wanted to change the date.

Appreciate this doesn't really answer your question of why 'a few rules' makes a difference, but it suggests to me that they do.

 

[Hanzou]

Nothing, it was a source that you might respect making the same point i.e. competition fighting is not the same as real fighting without rules. Although he may well have picked a bad example in Randy Couture, I didn't know he was ex-army too! Thanks DB.

Yet would anyone say that Randy Couture couldn't "really fight" in a situation where there are no rules?

A point to consider regarding the whole Boztepe/Gracie spat, R Gracie could have accepted Emin's terms and put him in his place at any time but didn't. Why?

After reading the transcripts in the link kindly provided by K-Man - How the superfight got started - Sherdog Mixed Martial Arts Forums - my conclusion is that R Gracie thought he had the advantage in the usual MMA format, Emin thought he had the advantage in a real fight, and given all the to-ing and fro-ing I'd say that they agreed with each other.

I find it interesting that you believe that considering that the thread you linked to almost unanimously believed that Boztepe ducked the Gracies, not the other way around.

I think its also noteworthy that Emin was the only one to accept one of the other persons offers/terms but R Gracie then wanted to change the date.

I think its noteworthy that the Gracies have a long history of taking challenge matches and competitions, and putting their reputations and their art on the line.

Boztepe? Not so much.

Appreciate this doesn't really answer your question of why 'a few rules' makes a difference, but it suggests to me that they do.

Well like I said earlier, do we really doubt that professional fighters can fight outside the ring? You really think a professional boxer couldn't really knock someone on their **** in a confrontation?

 

[drop bear]

Nothing, it was a source that you might respect making the same point i.e. competition fighting is not the same as real fighting without rules. Although he may well have picked a bad example in Randy Couture, I didn't know he was ex-army too! Thanks DB.

A point to consider regarding the whole Boztepe/Gracie spat, R Gracie could have accepted Emin's terms and put him in his place at any time but didn't. Why?

After reading the transcripts in the link kindly provided by K-Man - How the superfight got started - Sherdog Mixed Martial Arts Forums - my conclusion is that R Gracie thought he had the advantage in the usual MMA format, Emin thought he had the advantage in a real fight, and given all the to-ing and fro-ing I'd say that they agreed with each other.

Or at least that R Gracie thought he wouldn't have as big an advantage in a real fight if that's more acceptable to you.

I think its also noteworthy that Emin was the only one to accept one of the other persons offers/terms but R Gracie then wanted to change the date.

Appreciate this doesn't really answer your question of why 'a few rules' makes a difference, but it suggests to me that they do.

You are basing street vs ring on a fight that didn't happen?

The Gracie's were always carefull picking matches for their fighters.

 

[Hanzou]

Is this kind of test acceptable?
Using science and "dojo challenge"
Really impressed with cctv4 series "experience the real kung fu", to my opinion is better than Hong Kong tv kung fu quest series.

Nope.

While entertaining and informative, it just doesn't have the randomness of competitive combat. These guys aren't trying to "win" against the dojos they're "challenging", they're trying to learn from them. When two fighters enter a cage, their goal is to demolish each other because they both want to win.