Well I agree with you, but I think it's the opening thread and title causing confusion. (Well for me at least)
I guess personally I don't see MMA as a style in the traditional sense of the term, to me it's just cherry picked moves from other systems (or developed moves from experience) to use that work within the rules of the sport they are playing. And I think that's fine, if that's what your after, why not.
I wouldn't expect any single modern or "traditional" style to be able to compete long term in that environment in it's pure form without updating your skill set. You might get a few wins up your sleeve but since it's something that is a monitored state, others will adapt and develop counters, changing with the game as well. Which is what learning MMA is, a mixture of martial moves to get the desired result in the context of the sport.
Think you all actually agree, just talking different languages.
Great post. I just want to point out that the guys who compete in MMA are almost all accomplished martial artists in their own styles. They are skilled no-gi submission wrestlers, skilled strikers and skilled in a gi as well. They often have black belts or equivalent in more than one style of MA. I only bring this up because, while it's true that the techniques useful in MMA may not represent the entire gamut of techniques the individual knows, they don't just train these cherry picked techniques. And, as a fan, it's pretty damned exciting when they pull something off that isn't common. I'll never forget when Nick Diaz submitted Gomi with a gogoplata. Or when Cung Le executed a spinning back kick that just deflated several opponents. The tools are there. The depth of instruction is there.
Not at all. The fight you are referring to was in 1986. Boztepe would have been about 24 at the time. If you read about it Boztepe had about the same judgement of his fight as you do. Nearly 30 years ago my training was totally different to what I train now. My knowledge has hopefully been extended and I have trained in four other styles of Martial art. So yes, I would dismiss totally what he did 30 years ago and look at what he is doing now. Obviously if I wanted to improve my grappling skills I wouldn't look to Boztepe. Obviously I would go for BJJ. But if I was looking to improve my sticky hands skills then he has some very good material out there.
Now could he change? Of course he could. It was a ballsy effort to challenge Cheung in his own environment as Cheung was putting himself up as the best WC fighter in the world at the time. The fact that it was so scrappy and that neither man 'won' possibly demonstrates that they were about equal in ability at that time. Did he create a new system as a result? No he didn't. He took what he had and modified his training to make his system more effective.
Now I have no doubt that Boztepe's knowledge and ability outweigh mine by miles. I certainly wouldn't be putting my hand up to take him on in a NHB fight. But nor am I saying that he is the best either. We will never know, and in actual fact it is of no consequence. Nor have I the first idea as to what he is like as a person. But either way I believe he is a very talented martial artist and deserves a bit of respect for what he had achieved in his MA career.
:asian:
I have no doubt that this gentlemen KNOWS a lot and puts together a great seminar. It's possible that he is now enlightened and that in that moment when he was an "expert" who found that his entire training model was broken, he truly had an epiphany. Possible. But there is no evidence of that. What we have is seminar footage and videos of techniques against enthusiastically compliant partners which continue to be suspect at best. If this were anything else, he would approached with healthy skepticism.
This is exactly like the movie, Music Man. Here we have an effective, charming and convincing salesperson. He's selling a product, instruments, but he has no idea how to play them. He's faking it. He's not competent in that regard, but everyone is convinced. In Boztepe's case, you're saying that it's like at the moment of exposure he goes, 'Okay. Yeah... I need to learn to play these instruments." And so, over 30 years he learns to play the instruments and now we're all good because he learned his lesson.
Possible? Sure. Anything is possible. Likely? Well, I guess that depends on him and on you. Him if you believe he has integrity. And you if you want or have an interest in believing him.
That said, wouldn't most people find something more credible? Wouldn't it be more sensible to find an ACTUAL music teacher in the first place? And how would you find that person? You'd probably want to see that potential teacher playing an instrument and making music. Many people don't do that in martial arts. For many people, the moment of epiphany is like Boztepe or the guys in the video posted earlier of a Tai Chi and a Kung Fu expert: "****. I'm in a fight and everything I thought I knew is wrong."
Another article by Bill Wallace in which he says that Tyson had everything to lose and nothing to gain from fighting Gracie.
Black Belt - Google Books
I think that we're getting side tracked by the Gracie Challenge.
Is there a different yardstick?
How do systems test themselves these days if it isn't in the ring?
Do traditional systems keep up with changing methods of attacks? Are they taking into account that with the popularization of MMA that maybe more attackers are going to take the situation to the ground because it is now viewed as a successful strategy as opposed to a more punching oriented attacker from the media of boxers in the past?
Blindside, I think these are great questions. I just want to point out that there are MANY other ways to test techniques and ensure that training is as good as possible. I'm sure that many schools do a great job of keeping instruction practical and effective. It starts, IMO, with a qualified instructor, which is my largest concern.
why does anybody "need" to test? If you are satisfied with the quality of your training, there is no need to "test" in competition. Again, if competition is your personal interest then go for it. But if not, there is no genuine need for it. There is no need to prove anything to anybody, certainly no to the world at large. why would anybody care what the rest of the world, who are probably mostly ignorant of what goes on in your training sessions, thinks of what you do?
If you are being sold "effective self defense" and don't "test" in some manner, you have two issues. First, as a student, you are learning on faith, lacking the experience to judge your instructor in any way. Your instructor says this will work. You're evaluation of your instructor is superficial. He/she looks the part and sounds convincing. And two, you will never know if you're learning something that really works until it's too late. If you are ever in a situation where you need these skills, they will either work or not. And then you will know. Testing is critical. Testing in some kind of competition is only one way to do it.
The smart **** doing the stupid subtitles over the video knows about as much about Wing Chun as what you do , which is bloody zero.
Go into a genuine Wing Chun school , hold a telephone book over your chest and ask them to hit it from close range.
Then come back and tell us what you think.
But you won't do that because it is just easier to jump on the band wagon and talk **** about stuff you don't understand isn't it.
That's the rub, isn't it? What's a "genuine WC school" look like? There is nothing tangible that a prospective student can evaluate. It's a system that is being sold and independent evaluation is often discouraged. Are there "genuine WC schools?" I would suspect that there are and I am sure that there are some teaching solid technique in an effective manner. Is there any way for a lay person to distinguish the good ones from the bad? I'm not sure.
I guess you missed the parts where Boztepe is moving body parts while saying that he's not moving said body parts. I guess you also missed the part where he says that boxers and Karatekas are only using 20% of their body power, but his Kung Fu fists are using 100% power. These punches send hapless people flying backwards several feet, yet some how no professional fighters ever got the memo.
I won't do it because I'm not going to waste time looking for a "genuine" Wing Chun school. Anytime someone does something like that and the magical abilities don't seem to work, someone comes back with the excuse that you didn't go to a "real" (insert style) school.
Meanwhile, I would recommend you taking Boztepe's anti-grappling stuff to your nearest Bjj school (doesn't really matter which one), and videotape the results. It would go a long way towards legitimizing his claims.
It's just too bad nobody has ever put together an event or something where experts in each style could put it all out there. Some event where everyone gets into a giant ring... but maybe bigger. We'll need a unique shape. How about a hexagon?
Seriously, though, crosstraining is another hot button topic. I think a lot of people are for it. You don't have to train in BJJ in order to establish a friendly synergy. There's nothing keeping two schools from getting together to work out and spar.
