Why do TMAs have more difficulty in the ring/octagon?

[mook jong man]

Emin Boztepe is not Mike Tyson though. Outside of Wing Chun circles, most people have no idea who
Boztepe is. Which is probably why he supposedly keeps challenging major MMA fighters like Bas Rutten and Brock Lesnar.

Here's a video dissection of one of Boztepe's seminars:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NS65UiYqJ1o

Notice how far back his student flies from the impact of his punches. Again, it borders on Ki-power levels of martial silliness.

The smart **** doing the stupid subtitles over the video knows about as much about Wing Chun as what you do , which is bloody zero.

Go into a genuine Wing Chun school , hold a telephone book over your chest and ask them to hit it from close range.
Then come back and tell us what you think.
But you won't do that because it is just easier to jump on the band wagon and talk **** about stuff you don't understand isn't it.

 

[Hanzou]

The smart **** doing the stupid subtitles over the video knows about as much about Wing Chun as what you do , which is bloody zero.

I guess you missed the parts where Boztepe is moving body parts while saying that he's not moving said body parts. I guess you also missed the part where he says that boxers and Karatekas are only using 20% of their body power, but his Kung Fu fists are using 100% power. These punches send hapless people flying backwards several feet, yet some how no professional fighters ever got the memo.

Go into a genuine Wing Chun school , hold a telephone book over your chest and ask them to hit it from close range.
Then come back and tell us what you think.
But you won't do that because it is just easier to jump on the band wagon and talk **** about stuff you don't understand isn't it.

I won't do it because I'm not going to waste time looking for a "genuine" Wing Chun school. Anytime someone does something like that and the magical abilities don't seem to work, someone comes back with the excuse that you didn't go to a "real" (insert style) school.

Meanwhile, I would recommend you taking Boztepe's anti-grappling stuff to your nearest Bjj school (doesn't really matter which one), and videotape the results. It would go a long way towards legitimizing his claims.

 

[mook jong man]

I guess you missed the parts where Boztepe is moving body parts while saying that he's not moving said body parts. I guess you also missed the part where he says that boxers and Karatekas are only using 20% of their body power, but his Kung Fu fists are using 100% power. These punches send hapless people flying backwards several feet, yet some how no professional fighters ever got the memo.



I won't do it because I'm not going to waste time looking for a "genuine" Wing Chun school. Anytime someone does something like that and the magical abilities don't seem to work, someone comes back with the excuse that you didn't go to a "real" (insert style) school.

Meanwhile, I would recommend you taking Boztepe's anti-grappling stuff to your nearest Bjj school (doesn't really matter which one), and videotape the results. It would go a long way towards legitimizing his claims.

Well you are wasting your time now heaping crap on something that you have personally never even felt before.
They are not magical abilities , anymore than choking someone out is a magical ability.

Oh look , he was awake , and then by blocking his carotid arteries now he is asleep , there is black magic afoot I tell you.

 

[Hanzou]

Well you are wasting your time now heaping crap on something that you have personally never even felt before.
They are not magical abilities , anymore than choking someone out is a magical ability.

Oh look , he was awake , and then by blocking his carotid arteries now he is asleep , there is black magic afoot I tell you.

Mook, tell me something; if Wing Chun punches are stronger than Karate or Boxing punches, why aren't professional fighters using it in competition? Further why aren't we seeing Wing Chun guys in competitions or tournaments knocking people around with these incredibly powerful punches? Why aren't we seeing Wing Chun stylists performing these devestating punches in street fights?

I know choking someone out isn't magic, because people outside of martial arts have done it, and it's been used to devastating effects in a competitive environment. I've also seen trained people use chokes in street fights and brawls. The only place I've seen anyone perform these magic Kung fu punches is in demonstrations.

Where's all the fighters using these devastating Wing Chun punches?

 

[Steve]

Well I agree with you, but I think it's the opening thread and title causing confusion. (Well for me at least)

I guess personally I don't see MMA as a style in the traditional sense of the term, to me it's just cherry picked moves from other systems (or developed moves from experience) to use that work within the rules of the sport they are playing. And I think that's fine, if that's what your after, why not.

I wouldn't expect any single modern or "traditional" style to be able to compete long term in that environment in it's pure form without updating your skill set. You might get a few wins up your sleeve but since it's something that is a monitored state, others will adapt and develop counters, changing with the game as well. Which is what learning MMA is, a mixture of martial moves to get the desired result in the context of the sport.

Think you all actually agree, just talking different languages.

Great post. I just want to point out that the guys who compete in MMA are almost all accomplished martial artists in their own styles. They are skilled no-gi submission wrestlers, skilled strikers and skilled in a gi as well. They often have black belts or equivalent in more than one style of MA. I only bring this up because, while it's true that the techniques useful in MMA may not represent the entire gamut of techniques the individual knows, they don't just train these cherry picked techniques. And, as a fan, it's pretty damned exciting when they pull something off that isn't common. I'll never forget when Nick Diaz submitted Gomi with a gogoplata. Or when Cung Le executed a spinning back kick that just deflated several opponents. The tools are there. The depth of instruction is there.

Not at all. The fight you are referring to was in 1986. Boztepe would have been about 24 at the time. If you read about it Boztepe had about the same judgement of his fight as you do. Nearly 30 years ago my training was totally different to what I train now. My knowledge has hopefully been extended and I have trained in four other styles of Martial art. So yes, I would dismiss totally what he did 30 years ago and look at what he is doing now. Obviously if I wanted to improve my grappling skills I wouldn't look to Boztepe. Obviously I would go for BJJ. But if I was looking to improve my sticky hands skills then he has some very good material out there.

Now could he change? Of course he could. It was a ballsy effort to challenge Cheung in his own environment as Cheung was putting himself up as the best WC fighter in the world at the time. The fact that it was so scrappy and that neither man 'won' possibly demonstrates that they were about equal in ability at that time. Did he create a new system as a result? No he didn't. He took what he had and modified his training to make his system more effective.

Now I have no doubt that Boztepe's knowledge and ability outweigh mine by miles. I certainly wouldn't be putting my hand up to take him on in a NHB fight. But nor am I saying that he is the best either. We will never know, and in actual fact it is of no consequence. Nor have I the first idea as to what he is like as a person. But either way I believe he is a very talented martial artist and deserves a bit of respect for what he had achieved in his MA career.
:asian:

I have no doubt that this gentlemen KNOWS a lot and puts together a great seminar. It's possible that he is now enlightened and that in that moment when he was an "expert" who found that his entire training model was broken, he truly had an epiphany. Possible. But there is no evidence of that. What we have is seminar footage and videos of techniques against enthusiastically compliant partners which continue to be suspect at best. If this were anything else, he would approached with healthy skepticism.

This is exactly like the movie, Music Man. Here we have an effective, charming and convincing salesperson. He's selling a product, instruments, but he has no idea how to play them. He's faking it. He's not competent in that regard, but everyone is convinced. In Boztepe's case, you're saying that it's like at the moment of exposure he goes, 'Okay. Yeah... I need to learn to play these instruments." And so, over 30 years he learns to play the instruments and now we're all good because he learned his lesson.

Possible? Sure. Anything is possible. Likely? Well, I guess that depends on him and on you. Him if you believe he has integrity. And you if you want or have an interest in believing him.

That said, wouldn't most people find something more credible? Wouldn't it be more sensible to find an ACTUAL music teacher in the first place? And how would you find that person? You'd probably want to see that potential teacher playing an instrument and making music. Many people don't do that in martial arts. For many people, the moment of epiphany is like Boztepe or the guys in the video posted earlier of a Tai Chi and a Kung Fu expert: "****. I'm in a fight and everything I thought I knew is wrong."

Another article by Bill Wallace in which he says that Tyson had everything to lose and nothing to gain from fighting Gracie.
Black Belt - Google Books

I think that we're getting side tracked by the Gracie Challenge.

Is there a different yardstick?

How do systems test themselves these days if it isn't in the ring?

Do traditional systems keep up with changing methods of attacks? Are they taking into account that with the popularization of MMA that maybe more attackers are going to take the situation to the ground because it is now viewed as a successful strategy as opposed to a more punching oriented attacker from the media of boxers in the past?

Blindside, I think these are great questions. I just want to point out that there are MANY other ways to test techniques and ensure that training is as good as possible. I'm sure that many schools do a great job of keeping instruction practical and effective. It starts, IMO, with a qualified instructor, which is my largest concern.

why does anybody "need" to test? If you are satisfied with the quality of your training, there is no need to "test" in competition. Again, if competition is your personal interest then go for it. But if not, there is no genuine need for it. There is no need to prove anything to anybody, certainly no to the world at large. why would anybody care what the rest of the world, who are probably mostly ignorant of what goes on in your training sessions, thinks of what you do?

If you are being sold "effective self defense" and don't "test" in some manner, you have two issues. First, as a student, you are learning on faith, lacking the experience to judge your instructor in any way. Your instructor says this will work. You're evaluation of your instructor is superficial. He/she looks the part and sounds convincing. And two, you will never know if you're learning something that really works until it's too late. If you are ever in a situation where you need these skills, they will either work or not. And then you will know. Testing is critical. Testing in some kind of competition is only one way to do it.

The smart **** doing the stupid subtitles over the video knows about as much about Wing Chun as what you do , which is bloody zero.

Go into a genuine Wing Chun school , hold a telephone book over your chest and ask them to hit it from close range.
Then come back and tell us what you think.
But you won't do that because it is just easier to jump on the band wagon and talk **** about stuff you don't understand isn't it.

That's the rub, isn't it? What's a "genuine WC school" look like? There is nothing tangible that a prospective student can evaluate. It's a system that is being sold and independent evaluation is often discouraged. Are there "genuine WC schools?" I would suspect that there are and I am sure that there are some teaching solid technique in an effective manner. Is there any way for a lay person to distinguish the good ones from the bad? I'm not sure.

I guess you missed the parts where Boztepe is moving body parts while saying that he's not moving said body parts. I guess you also missed the part where he says that boxers and Karatekas are only using 20% of their body power, but his Kung Fu fists are using 100% power. These punches send hapless people flying backwards several feet, yet some how no professional fighters ever got the memo.

I won't do it because I'm not going to waste time looking for a "genuine" Wing Chun school. Anytime someone does something like that and the magical abilities don't seem to work, someone comes back with the excuse that you didn't go to a "real" (insert style) school.

Meanwhile, I would recommend you taking Boztepe's anti-grappling stuff to your nearest Bjj school (doesn't really matter which one), and videotape the results. It would go a long way towards legitimizing his claims.

It's just too bad nobody has ever put together an event or something where experts in each style could put it all out there. Some event where everyone gets into a giant ring... but maybe bigger. We'll need a unique shape. How about a hexagon?

Seriously, though, crosstraining is another hot button topic. I think a lot of people are for it. You don't have to train in BJJ in order to establish a friendly synergy. There's nothing keeping two schools from getting together to work out and spar.

 

[Steve]

Mook, tell me something; if Wing Chun punches are stronger than Karate or Boxing punches, why aren't professional fighters using it in competition? Further why aren't we seeing Wing Chun guys in competitions or tournaments knocking people around with these incredibly powerful punches? Why aren't we seeing Wing Chun stylists performing these devestating punches in street fights?

I know choking someone out isn't magic, because people outside of martial arts have done it, and it's been used to devastating effects in a competitive environment. I've also seen trained people use chokes in street fights and brawls. The only place I've seen anyone perform these magic Kung fu punches is in demonstrations.

Where's all the fighters using these devastating Wing Chun punches?

Just to add to this, it would be freaking awesome to see it. I'd love it.

 

[mook jong man]

Mook, tell me something; if Wing Chun punches are stronger than Karate or Boxing punches, why aren't professional fighters using it in competition? Further why aren't we seeing Wing Chun guys in competitions or tournaments knocking people around with these incredibly powerful punches? Why aren't we seeing Wing Chun stylists performing these devestating punches in street fights?

I know choking someone out isn't magic, because people outside of martial arts have done it, and it's been used to devastating effects in a competitive environment. I've also seen trained people use chokes in street fights and brawls. The only place I've seen anyone perform these magic Kung fu punches is in demonstrations.

Where's all the fighters using these devastating Wing Chun punches?

No one says they are stronger , although they are quite powerful.
I would say they cause more internal damage because of the way the vertical fist is formed on impact . (ungloved of course)

As an experiment get someone to hit you on the side of your shoulder with a horizontal fist and then get the same person , using the same force to hit you with a vertical fist , last three knuckles and forming the fist on impact.

You tell me which one hurts the most and has penetrating force.

Why aren't professionals using it in competition.
Simples , they probably think it is a load of ***** like you do and can't be bothered spending years to perfect it.

 

[Hanzou]

Just to add to this, it would be freaking awesome to see it. I'd love it.

Yep. That's what a lot of people don't understand. We're all fans of the martial arts, and when I see something crazy actually work, it makes us happy. For example, I loved watching Anderson Silva fight. He would dodge punches like the matrix and choke out people twice his size. It was like watching Bruce Lee fighting in the Octagon. Machida was another one, with his wild footwork, and karate moves.

Bottom line; If Bozepte's punching method actually worked, people would be using it in competition. You have guys who are living, breathing, eating, and crapping martial arts, and they are looking for any advantage in a fight. There's no way they wouldn't use a punch that could floor a person with little body movement.

 

[Hanzou]

No one says they are stronger , although they are quite powerful.

Boztepe said they were stronger. He specifically stated that Karate and Boxing blows have less power than the Wing Chun punch.

I would say they cause more internal damage because of the way the vertical fist is formed on impact . (ungloved of course)

That wasn't internal damage I saw in that video. I saw a guy hit someone with a punch, and the guy went flying backwards from the impact.

As an experiment get someone to hit you on the side of your shoulder with a horizontal fist and then get the same person , using the same force to hit you with a vertical fist , last three knuckles and forming the fist on impact.

You tell me which one hurts the most and has penetrating force.

I could also use a Phoenix-Eye fist punch to get even more penetrating force. Doesn't mean I'd use that punch in a fight, because its a great way to break my fingers.

Why aren't professionals using it in competition.
Simples , they probably think it is a load of ***** like you do and can't be bothered spending years to perfect it.

Really? I know some WC instructors that are in their 20s and 30s. You telling me that even these instructors haven't mastered the secret of the magical kung fu punch?

In all seriousness, the idea that a superior punching method exists that no professional fighter wants to use is nonsense. They will spend years learning it if its legit, because they make their living doing this stuff. The problem is that its not legit.

Mythbusters for example, recently proved that the one-inch punch had less than half the power of a full punch. In the end, these wild claims simply don't stack up to scientific scrutiny.

 

[Danny T]

..., if Wing Chun punches are stronger than Karate or Boxing punches, why aren't professional fighters using it in competition? Further why aren't we seeing Wing Chun guys in competitions or tournaments knocking people around with these incredibly powerful punches? Why aren't we seeing Wing Chun stylists performing these devestating punches in street fights?

I know choking someone out isn't magic, because people outside of martial arts have done it, and it's been used to devastating effects in a competitive environment. I've also seen trained people use chokes in street fights and brawls. The only place I've seen anyone perform these magic Kung fu punches is in demonstrations.

Where's all the fighters using these devastating Wing Chun punches?

As both a wing chunner (over 25 years), a Muay Thai boxer (over 20 years), and a western boxer (over 40 years) I believe I can get an experienced opinion covering both sides. I am now in my 60s and I have competed in competitions that were available at the time both with gloves and without gloves. I also did some wrestling from the age of 14-16 and didn't do any real serious groundfighting until the late 90's. Today I still practice and instruct: WC, Muay Thai, and CSW as well as the FMA of Pekiti-Tirsia. I also coach several MMA amateur and professional fighters (many have done well, a few are struggling and most amateurs are there for a couple fights only).
Let's step back a few years and take a look at how what we now know call Boxing delivered their punches. Elbows down and in and with vertical or with a slightly cork screwed and angled thumb up punch. Upper body squared and with the weight back onto the rear foot. (very, very similar to the wing chun form and punch presentation) Why? And why the change to what is today's boxing structure? These two structures are so different one has to acknowledge they are completely different fighting methods, styles, and tactics. Why?

Answer these questions and you will begin to understand why wing chun isn't seen in today's mma venues. You will also begin to understand why only a few fighting methods are used almost to the point of complete rejection of all others.

 

[mook jong man]

Boztepe said they were stronger. He specifically stated that Karate and Boxing blows have less power than the Wing Chun punch.



That wasn't internal damage I saw in that video. I saw a guy hit someone with a punch, and the guy went flying backwards from the impact.



I could also use a Phoenix-Eye fist punch to get even more penetrating force. Doesn't mean I'd use that punch in a fight, because its a great way to break my fingers.



Really? I know some WC instructors that are in their 20s and 30s. You telling me that even these instructors haven't mastered the secret of the magical kung fu punch?

In all seriousness, the idea that a superior punching method exists that no professional fighter wants to use is nonsense. They will spend years learning it if its legit, because they make their living doing this stuff. The problem is that its not legit.

Mythbusters for example, recently proved that the one-inch punch had less than half the power of a full punch. In the end, these wild claims simply don't stack up to scientific scrutiny.

Ok dude you know it all , you da man.
I think the bigger issue here is why the hell you care so much about what other people are doing.
Shouldn't you be worried more about your own training , maybe working on your "Shrimping " or something .
I mean I don't lie awake at night thinking hmm.... I wonder why we don't see any BJJ people , Muay Thai people or Boxing people trying their hand at chi sau competitions.

 

[K-man]

Emin Boztepe is not Mike Tyson though. Outside of Wing Chun circles, most people have no idea who
Boztepe is. Which is probably why he supposedly keeps challenging major MMA fighters like Bas Rutten and Brock Lesnar.

Here's a video dissection of one of Boztepe's seminars:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NS65UiYqJ1o

Notice how far back his student flies from the impact of his punches. Again, it borders on Ki-power levels of martial silliness.

Absolute BS! Nothing to do with Chi, just good bio-mechanics. I can get the same result as he does if my partner doesn't have a pad. Even with a pad they will go a couple of steps back.

But why do you pick a video taken out of context by a detractor to make your point. Here is part of the rest of that seminar ..
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0SzBVs09-n4

And I think you'll find the supposed challenge that Bas Rutten took up isn't as you put it either. And for the record, having met and trained with Bas I wouldn't be challenging him either, even with his stuffed arm.

 

[Hanzou]

Absolute BS! Nothing to do with Chi, just good bio-mechanics. I can get the same result as he does if my partner doesn't have a pad. Even with a pad they will go a couple of steps back.

But why do you pick a video taken out of context by a detractor to make your point. Here is part of the rest of that seminar ..
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0SzBVs09-n4

I chose that video because it points out the flaws in the method better than I would be able to in a post on the forum.

Looking at your video above, Boztepe is again stating that the Wing Chun method is superior to the boxing method.

I ask again, if this method is so much better than what professional fighters are doing, why isn't this guy doing demonstrations showcasing his skill against professional fighters?

This is yet another example of a "crazy claim" by Boztepe.

 

[Hanzou]

I mean I don't lie awake at night thinking hmm.... I wonder why we don't see any BJJ people , Muay Thai people or Boxing people trying their hand at chi sau competitions.

Well to be fair, NHB and MMA competitions aren't style specific competitions like a tournament revolving around Chi Sau would be a very specific Wing Chun competition. Clearly, a Wing Chun exponent would have an unfair advantage in a competition designed specifically for Wing Chun. However, Bjj, Muay Thai, Boxing, and Wing Chun should all be on equal footing in a mixed martial arts competition.

If you disagree, please explain how Boxing, Bjj, and MT have an unfair advantage over something like Wing Chun in NHB/MMA competitions.

 

[K-man]

I guess you missed the parts where Boztepe is moving body parts while saying that he's not moving said body parts. I guess you also missed the part where he says that boxers and Karatekas are only using 20% of their body power, but his Kung Fu fists are using 100% power. These punches send hapless people flying backwards several feet, yet some how no professional fighters ever got the memo.



I won't do it because I'm not going to waste time looking for a "genuine" Wing Chun school. Anytime someone does something like that and the magical abilities don't seem to work, someone comes back with the excuse that you didn't go to a "real" (insert style) school.

Meanwhile, I would recommend you taking Boztepe's anti-grappling stuff to your nearest Bjj school (doesn't really matter which one), and videotape the results. It would go a long way towards legitimizing his claims.

In your haste to bag the man you missed what he said. I would say that the way karate punches are generally taught they use less than 20% of their 'body' power. That doesn't mean they are delivering 20% of total power. I reckon the average standing karate punch delivers about 60% of total power which is why I reckon I can significantly improve the power of most people's punches. Obviously you have not experienced what he is discussing in your training. Now why doesn't that surprise me?

And for what it's worth, seeing Bas Rutten's name was mentioned earlier, his punches are as powerful as I have seen yet I believe he could still increase the power of his punch if he wanted to. He simply doesn't need to. And that is is the nub. You don't need to develop 100% power for a strike to be effective.

And of course you wouldn't want to visit a good WC school. You might not be able to handle it.

Boztepe's ground stuff is not designed to fight specialist grapplers. It is designed for the street and from the little I gave seen it may well have come from Systema.

Mook, tell me something; if Wing Chun punches are stronger than Karate or Boxing punches, why aren't professional fighters using it in competition? Further why aren't we seeing Wing Chun guys in competitions or tournaments knocking people around with these incredibly powerful punches? Why aren't we seeing Wing Chun stylists performing these devestating punches in street fights?

Where's all the fighters using these devastating Wing Chun punches?

You have such limited knowledge of other systems that it is scary. Whether you can deliver a power punch in competition depends on the position you are in at the time. Personally I don't train my punching the way WC does although the power generated is similar. And, there is absolutely no reason why you couldn't use it in competition if you were prepared to take the time to learn it. Have you ever been punched by an experienced Systema practitioner?

No one says they are stronger , although they are quite powerful.
I would say they cause more internal damage because of the way the vertical fist is formed on impact . (ungloved of course)

As an experiment get someone to hit you on the side of your shoulder with a horizontal fist and then get the same person , using the same force to hit you with a vertical fist , last three knuckles and forming the fist on impact.

You tell me which one hurts the most and has penetrating force.

Why aren't professionals using it in competition.
Simples , they probably think it is a load of ***** like you do and can't be bothered spending years to perfect it.

Good points. I teach vertical fist more even than a neutral fist and don't teach the horizontal fist at all. And Mook, I think you are wrong. A good WC punch, as demonstrated, is way more powerful than most karate punches the way I have seen them taught, and that is from a 30 plus year karate background. That is not to say that karate punches from a good karateka aren't powerful but the way I have seen some karate schools train striking leaves a lot to be desired.

Bottom line; If Bozepte's punching method actually worked, people would be using it in competition. You have guys who are living, breathing, eating, and crapping martial arts, and they are looking for any advantage in a fight. There's no way they wouldn't use a punch that could floor a person with little body movement.

Then perhaps they should eat a bit of humble pie, find a good WC school and learn how to do it.

Boztepe said they were stronger. He specifically stated that Karate and Boxing blows have less power than the Wing Chun punch.

That wasn't internal damage I saw in that video. I saw a guy hit someone with a punch, and the guy went flying backwards from the impact.

I could also use a Phoenix-Eye fist punch to get even more penetrating force. Doesn't mean I'd use that punch in a fight, because its a great way to break my fingers.

Really? I know some WC instructors that are in their 20s and 30s. You telling me that even these instructors haven't mastered the secret of the magical kung fu punch?

In all seriousness, the idea that a superior punching method exists that no professional fighter wants to use is nonsense. They will spend years learning it if its legit, because they make their living doing this stuff. The problem is that its not legit.

Mythbusters for example, recently proved that the one-inch punch had less than half the power of a full punch. In the end, these wild claims simply don't stack up to scientific scrutiny.

First point, he is right. The punch he was demonstrating utilised his entire body. That delivers much more power than your normal karate or boxing strike. Even then the guy went flying back and I would be certain Boztepe wasn't striking with anywhere near his full power.

If you wouldn't use a Phoenix eye fist in a fight then you are ignoring one of your most effective strikes. But then, you don't believe in vital point striking either. A light Phoenix eye punch can be extremely effective, even when used as a distraction to apply a lock.

As to Mythbusters. You have misquoted again. Obviously a one inch punch has less power than a full punch but that doesn't mean it is ineffective. I would have thought Mythbusters would have been classed as 'scientific scrutiny'.

A ninja can knock out a person with a punch from one inch away.


PLAUSIBLE
The first had Jamie test a full force conventional punch and measure the force. Anthony, who was trained in the use of the one inch punch, performed it. The one inch punch had half the force of Jamie’s punch, and the three inch punch had two thirds the force. Anthony further demonstrated the power of the punch by using it to break only the last of three wooden boards, a feat that Jamie was unable to match. The Mythbusters concluded that with the right training, a person can use the one inch punch with enough power and expertise to knock down a person.

As others have said, you have no idea of other styles and other methods. Perhaps you should restrict your discussion to MMA and refrain from offering 'expert' opinion on things you know very little about.

 

[Steve]

Absolute BS! Nothing to do with Chi, just good bio-mechanics. I can get the same result as he does if my partner doesn't have a pad. Even with a pad they will go a couple of steps back.

But why do you pick a video taken out of context by a detractor to make your point. Here is part of the rest of that seminar ..
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0SzBVs09-n4

And I think you'll find the supposed challenge that Bas Rutten took up isn't as you put it either. And for the record, having met and trained with Bas I wouldn't be challenging him either, even with his stuffed arm.

If it's good bio-mechanics, it begs the question. These are skills which would be useful to competitive martial artists. Any advantage would be pursued. So, why not use this tremendously awesome power? You guys seem to believe that it's because MMAists have a bad attitude, wouldn't take the time or perhaps are just too short sighted. Or am I wrong? What is there about this that you think makes it unsuitable? What is it about MMA that you believe precludes these bio-mechanically sound techniques from being helpful?

I would like to assure you that this is not the case. There seems to be a fundamental disregard for the pragmatic nature of professional athletes. They are serious martial artists with years of experience and skills drawn from various martial arts systems. Many are black beltor equivalent in multiple systems, and are not dabblers. They continue to train separately in multiple styles while also training for MMA competition. While the specific cocktail of skills on display in an MMA match may seem limited to someone who is unfamiliar, these athletes are committed to learning as much as possible. I know guys who do everything from meditation to yoga to tai chi and anything else you can imagine which they believe helps them physically, mentally or spiritually.

 

[Blindside]

why does anybody "need" to test? If you are satisfied with the quality of your training, there is no need to "test" in competition. Again, if competition is your personal interest then go for it. But if not, there is no genuine need for it. There is no need to prove anything to anybody, certainly no to the world at large. why would anybody care what the rest of the world, who are probably mostly ignorant of what goes on in your training sessions, thinks of what you do?

Are you absolutely sold on the value of everything in your system? Does every technique make sound sense? Can you pull them off? You and I both walked away from kenpo because we had doubts about the training method, so I know you are a critical thinker, you don't accept things "as sifu says." I don't test the system to prove it to others, I do so to prove it to myself. Yes I can work with my students to practice different techniques, but can I pull it off when they are fully resisting? Good, and then because I know that working only with your own group can cause a bias in the testing sample, I then have to go outside the group and since I am not getting into street fights, that requires competition. Competition has taught me lessons that make me a better instructor. I see things even in my own systems that are clearly artifacts of people not pressure testing the material, going very kenpoish with a lack of resistance training, I won't do that to my students.

 

[K-man]

If it's good bio-mechanics, it begs the question. These are skills which would be useful to competitive martial artists. Any advantage would be pursued. So, why not use this tremendously awesome power? You guys seem to believe that it's because MMAists have a bad attitude, wouldn't take the time or perhaps are just too short sighted. Or am I wrong? What is there about this that you think makes it unsuitable? What is it about MMA that you believe precludes these bio-mechanically sound techniques from being helpful?

I would like to assure you that this is not the case. There seems to be a fundamental disregard for the pragmatic nature of professional athletes. They are serious martial artists with years of experience and skills drawn from various martial arts systems. Many are black beltor equivalent in multiple systems, and are not dabblers. They continue to train separately in multiple styles while also training for MMA competition. While the specific cocktail of skills on display in an MMA match may seem limited to someone who is unfamiliar, these athletes are committed to learning as much as possible. I know guys who do everything from meditation to yoga to tai chi and anything else you can imagine which they believe helps them physically, mentally or spiritually.

Hey, don't shoot the messenger. I have no problem with MMA. I think it is awesome training and if you are young and want competition it is the way to go. It is only when people start telling me that MMA has all the answers and that other styles are crap and top exponents of other styles are frauds that I get my nose out of joint.

I have no doubt that top MMA people exploit biomechanics to the utmost to extract every bit of advantage they can. That is probably the top 0.1% of people training MMA. For most people they do what they do. They are not professional athletes. They can not afford the specialist coaching that a top athlete gets. I spend a lot of time teaching it to guys who have trained for decades to give them a little edge. But unless it has been shown to you, you are not going to be able to teach it to others. Having a black belt in any style doesn't guarantee a great knowledge or ability although it us a good first step. (BJJ may be the exception here but even that seems to be reducing its requirements time wise to BB.)
:asian:

 

[Hanzou]

In your haste to bag the man you missed what he said. I would say that the way karate punches are generally taught they use less than 20% of their 'body' power. That doesn't mean they are delivering 20% of total power. I reckon the average standing karate punch delivers about 60% of total power which is why I reckon I can significantly improve the power of most people's punches. Obviously you have not experienced what he is discussing in your training. Now why doesn't that surprise me?

Clearly I'm not the only one who hasn't experienced what he is discussing, because no one talks about the power of Wing Chun's punches in any MA circles. Again, if there was an ounce of reality to what Bozetepe was talking about, everyone would be training in it. Its nonsense to believe that people would ignore this incredible secret power because they're "too lazy". People spent years to learn Bjj after the first UFC bouts. You honestly believe that those same people wouldn't spend years to learn a punching from Wing Chun if it was effective?

And of course you wouldn't want to visit a good WC school. You might not be able to handle it.

The very fact that I can't just visit any WC school immediately sends up red flags.

Boztepe's ground stuff is not designed to fight specialist grapplers. It is designed for the street

And its effectiveness has been tested in what way exactly? Those supposed 200 fights that Boztepe participated in?

You have such limited knowledge of other systems that it is scary. Whether you can deliver a power punch in competition depends on the position you are in at the time.

Er... whether you can deliver a power punch on the street depends on the position you are in at the time too. Are you saying that WC exponents can't power punch because they are unable to attain the proper position in a competition format?

Seriously?

Then perhaps they should eat a bit of humble pie, find a good WC school and learn how to do it.

It needs to be proven to be a viable method first. WC fighters entering MMA competitions have never been able to demonstrate that level of punching power. That includes one of Emin Bozetepe's students.

First point, he is right. The punch he was demonstrating utilised his entire body. That delivers much more power than your normal karate or boxing strike. Even then the guy went flying back and I would be certain Boztepe wasn't striking with anywhere near his full power.

So again, why isn't Boztepe going out into the MA world and demonstrating this awesome technique on professional fighters, make himself a gazillionaire, and make WC the premiere striking art on the planet?

It's the exact same nonsense as that Ki-master who could destroy people from 20 feet away. When the poop hits the fan and these guys actually have to fight someone, none of this stuff comes out for display. Just like when Boztepe attacked William Cheung during a demo. Where was the one-inch punching? Where's the chi sau? Even if you want to make the excuse that Boztepe was young and inexperienced (even though at that point he had been studying Wing Chun for 6 years), Cheung was a grandmaster in WC and he didn't do anything resembling WC either. Both men scrambled on the floor wailing on each other like two untrained lunatics.

Simply put, the facts don't back up Boztepe's claims.

As to Mythbusters. You have misquoted again. Obviously a one inch punch has less power than a full punch but that doesn't mean it is ineffective. I would have thought Mythbusters would have been classed as 'scientific scrutiny'.

"Plausible" on Mythbusters mean that its possible, but couldn't be proven on the show. I do believe the goal was to see if someone can be knocked out with a one-inch punch, their findings showed that someone could be knocked down by the punch. There's a big difference between knocking someone down, and knocking someone out.

Additionally, I said that they found that the one-inch punch produced less than half the power of a standard punch. Your quote backed that up, so what are you talking about?

 

[K-man]

It's the exact same nonsense as that Ki-master who could destroy people from 20 feet away. When the poop hits the fan and these guys actually have to fight someone, none of this stuff comes out for display. Just like when Boztepe attacked William Cheung during a demo. Where was the one-inch punching? Where's the chi sau? Even if you want to make the excuse that Boztepe was young and inexperienced (even though at that point he had been studying Wing Chun for 6 years), Cheung was a grandmaster in WC and he didn't do anything resembling WC either. Both men scrambled on the floor wailing on each other like two untrained lunatics.

Simply put, the facts don't back up Boztepe's claims.



"Plausible" on Mythbusters mean that its possible, but couldn't be proven on the show. I do believe the goal was to see if someone can be knocked out with a one-inch punch, their findings showed that someone could be knocked down by the punch. There's a big difference between knocking someone down, and knocking someone out.

Additionally, I said that they found that the one-inch punch produced less than half the power of a standard punch. Your quote backed that up, so what are you talking about?

Oh poleeese! This is nothing like the Ki master crap. You are demeaning another style yet again and trying to dismiss it by putting it up against fake crap. The biomechanics he had demonstrating are straight forward. You just can't be bothered looking at it because you know that all your training is world best practice. :bs:
I have news for you. It us painfully obvious that you haven't seen much outside your own small arena. The fact that you can't discuss a particular technique without linking it to totally unrelated BS invalidates your entire arguement.

Then you dredge out a 30 year old video to demonstrate what a person is doing now? How does that work? And to suggest that 6 years of training gives a lot of experience in a TMA again demonstrates your ignorance of a TMA.

And your Mythbusters red herring ...
You made a claim that was demonstrably false about what they examined. Nobody at anytime that I am aware has ever suggested that a one inch punch was as powerful as a fully fledged punch. Yet because the one inch punch delivers about half the power you dismiss it out of sight. That wasn't what was being examined. What was being examined was, is the one inch punch effective? Answer, yes. As to the difference between knocking down and knocking out, I would suggest it is requires less power to knock out than knock down if you strike the right spot, but what would I know, I have never trained in MMA.