Why do TMAs have more difficulty in the ring/octagon?

[K-man]

You know, another possible reason (assuming your assumption is correct) is that more likely the people attracted to MMA will just do MMA and have no background in any other style. So it's possible that in a few years time there will be no contenders with a back ground in judo or bjj either. Just a mixture of moves from differing styles taught in a way that enhances their cage fighting taught purely in a MMA school.

Below lists what I assume is the leading backgrounds for UFC contenders.
UFC® Martial Arts Styles - Fighters Train in Multiple Disciplines

I think this post makes several valid points. Firstly, in the link above which is the official UFC site they define MMA.

Mixed Martial Arts is the fusion of two or more styles of fighting. Every UFC fighter trains in various systems to create the perfect blend of skills to compete in The Octagon™.

So the premise in the OP is flawed before we even start. UFC is not a competition between two competitors from two individual styles. It is a competition between two competitors who have each trained in multiple different styles to achieve a level of competence to fight in ring according to the rules of the UFC.

The second point is that potential fighters now have a choice. They can go off to a school that teaches an individual style such as TKD or Judo or Boxing and become proficient in that style then look for another type of training to complement their initial choice. So from TKD or Boxing they might select Judo or BJJ and from Judo they might select Karate or Boxing. Or, they might go straight to an MMA gym to get a grounding in multiple disciplines right from day one. This is what jezr is saying above, but I think it is already happening and in the future you will see fewer and fewer fighters who could be identified by a particular style of training, if any at all. MMA will just be a generic term for a style of fighting that encompasses striking, grappling and ground.

To my mind the Gracies did an absolutely brilliant job of promoting their brand, firstly by developing a competition where they could use their style to dominate, then to promote their brand from their success.

In UFC 1 there were fighters that could be identified as practitioners of a particular style but those days are long gone. Now you need to train in multiple disciplines to compete in a competition designed for fighters who have trained in multiple disciplines.
:asian:

 

[Hanzou]

Very good point, when I see an arm bar for example, I have no idea if they are using JJ, BJJ, HKD, Judo, wrestling or learnt it at an MMA school. If I happen to look at the persons background, I'll assume that style is how they learnt it.

Same with a basic punch and basic kick. It would really need to be an obvious stylized move for me to tell the difference or in turn have a good understanding of that style.

Well, when I see traditional Kung Fu, it doesn't look anything like kickboxing. It has very distinct movements and stances. I don't know, maybe I've seen too many Kung Fu movies, but shouldn't fighting Kung Fu somewhat resemble pattern/form Kung Fu?

 

[Hanzou]

To my mind the Gracies did an absolutely brilliant job of promoting their brand, firstly by developing a competition where they could use their style to dominate, then to promote their brand from their success.

People often say this, but 20 years later, Bjj is still the dominant grappling form in MMA. You literally cannot go far in MMA without knowing it. Let's also not forget that Rickson was promoting Bjj in Japan via Vale Tudo, and Renzo was promoting Bjj in another NHB tournament whose name escapes me.

So yes they were brilliant promoters, but their promotion only worked because they delivered the goods.

 

[K-man]

Bjj isn't designed for the ring either, yet it excels there.

Keep in mind, there is nothing in MMA rules that prohibits what Hapkido, Ninjutsu, or Long Fist does.

I'm not convinced when you say BJJ was not designed for the ring. I believe it was totally designed for the ring with the added benefit of being able to be used on the street if required. The same would be true of boxing and a number of other arts.

Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, although obviously similar in many respects to Judo and other traditional systems of Japanese Jiu Jitsu, differs in some fundamental ways from all other related systems. Judo was originally designed as a powerful system of self-defense that also included a sportive component and the idea of self-cultivation and the mutual benefit of members of society. Presently, although the techniques of Judo may certainly be applied in real fighting situations (and many practitioners of "sport" Judo have applied their skills very effectively in non-sportive confrontations), the emphasis in most schools is on sport competition. During the course of the last century the rules of Judo began to emphasize means of achieving victory in competition that did not necessarily reflect the conditions of all in fighting. For example, a Judo match may be won by a throw or a pin hold without a submission. These rules and limited groundwork that forbids many of the original submission holds found in early Judo somewhat limit direct applicability to street fights. Other styles of classical Jiu Jitsu are still plagued by the original problem Kano addressed with his emphasis on randori, namely, technical training is limited to kata practice.

Brazilian Jiu Jitsu has followed a different course in the last 80 years. The Gracie challenge and participation in countless free fighting events has led to a different emphasis in fighting strategy and the development of unique rules for BJJ sport competition. Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is divided into three broad categories, each mutually supportive of the others; self-defense (including striking techniques and unarmed techniques against armed opponents), free fighting competition (commonly referred to as "vale tudo" or "anything goes" events, now popularly called MMA), and sport grappling with and without the gi (matches that include a wide range of submission holds, but no striking). Even the rules of sport grappling matches are designed to ingrain the proper strategy to be applied in the street. For example in a sport BJJ match, points are awarded based on achieving superior positions, positions from which not only grappling techniques can be more readily applied, but also from which strikes may be applied or defended. Students naturally seek the positions that will garner them the most points, thereby constantly reinforcing the most efficient strategy for real life confrontations. This "position-submission" strategy has proven to be the most effective for real life confrontations.
History of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu

As to your claim that "there is nothing in MMA rules that prohibits what Hapkido, Ninjutsu, or Long Fist does", well that is demonstrably false in the case of Ninjutsu because much of Ninjutsu is to do with weapons, poisons, concealment etc that has absolutely no place in the ring.
:asian:

 

[jezr74]

Well, when I see traditional Kung Fu, it doesn't look anything like kickboxing. It has very distinct movements and stances. I don't know, maybe I've seen too many Kung Fu movies, but shouldn't fighting Kung Fu somewhat resemble pattern/form Kung Fu?

I wouldn't think so. Your seeing exactly as you stated, patterns and forms choreographed. (no different from GSP in Captain America) But in an actual fight or sparring, it will never be as flashy. You can see insights of a style when an opportunity presents itself and it can be executed, so most the time your seeing the basics, they are good and reliable. I would say BJJ would be the same, has it's quicker less complicated moves or setups, then executes the more devastating moves if the opportunity presents.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Well, when I see traditional Kung Fu, it doesn't look anything like kickboxing. It has very distinct movements and stances. I don't know, maybe I've seen too many Kung Fu movies, but shouldn't fighting Kung Fu somewhat resemble pattern/form Kung Fu?

It depends on how you want to train your traditional Kung Fu system. For example in the long fist system there are

- 1 step 1 punch,
- 1 step 2 punches,
- 1 step 3 punches,
- 2 steps 1 punch,
- 3 steps 1 punch (this is used to chase your opponent when he moves back).

When you train you 1 step 3 punches, you can train all the combinations as:

- jab, cross, hook,
- jab, cross, uppercut,
- jab, hook, uppercut,
- jab, uppercut, cross,
- ...

When you train your punch this way, the word "style" will have little meaning.

 

[jezr74]

People often say this, but 20 years later, Bjj is still the dominant grappling form in MMA. You literally cannot go far in MMA without knowing it. Let's also not forget that Rickson was promoting Bjj in Japan via Vale Tudo, and Renzo was promoting Bjj in another NHB tournament whose name escapes me.

So yes they were brilliant promoters, but their promotion only worked because they delivered the goods.

I'm not surprised. In the area I live, have plenty of TKD, Karate and BJJ schools. I only found my HKD school by chance when I got lost driving to my brothers house and popped in to check it out.

And I absolutely agree, in MMA style fights, you must have a ground game. And standing... I've seen plenty of examples of both watching the TUF series.

 

[Hanzou]

I'm not convinced when you say BJJ was not designed for the ring. I believe it was totally designed for the ring with the added benefit of being able to be used on the street if required. The same would be true of boxing and a number of other arts.

Actually its the other way around. The Gracies designed Bjj for self defense, and promoted it through competitions and sporting events. As you said, they're brilliant (and shameless) promoters. They used Vale Tudo, UFC, and other NHB events to promote their art's effectiveness as a fighting system. That's always been their modus operandi. Rorion makes that pretty clear in the Gracie Challenge tapes. Kano designed competitions for Judokas to fight against other Judokas, and he codified rules to make the matches more interesting and attractive. The Gracies designed competitions for Bjj to fight other martial arts styles with as little rules as possible, along with issuing challenges to people to fight them in order to prove martial superiority.

That's a big difference in goal and design.

As to your claim that "there is nothing in MMA rules that prohibits what Hapkido, Ninjutsu, or Long Fist does", well that is demonstrably false in the case of Ninjutsu because much of Ninjutsu is to do with weapons, poisons, concealment etc that has absolutely no place in the ring.

So if someone practices Ninjutsu and has to defend themselves, they'll have to carry weapons, poisons, and smoke bombs in order to fight back?

 

[K-man]

So if someone practices Ninjutsu and has to defend themselves, they'll have to carry weapons, poisons, and smoke bombs in order to fight back?

Now you are asking the wrong person. I know very little about it but I'm sure my mate Chris will give a complete answer. I am under the impression that he teaches self defence separate to Ninjustsu because Ninjutsu doesn't equip you for that sort of fighting. Perhaps, since you made the statement, you might like to provide the evidence to back it up.

Which reminds me, you didn't answer my question.

 

[Hanzou]

I wouldn't think so. Your seeing exactly as you stated, patterns and forms choreographed. (no different from GSP in Captain America) But in an actual fight or sparring, it will never be as flashy. You can see insights of a style when an opportunity presents itself and it can be executed, so most the time your seeing the basics, they are good and reliable. I would say BJJ would be the same, has it's quicker less complicated moves or setups, then executes the more devastating moves if the opportunity presents.

Well I was talking about stuff like this;

That's stuff that was published for decades in Martial Arts magazines and books as the fighting applications of Kung Fu, and it very closely resembled the forms.

So why aren't we seeing stuff like that in MMA?

 

[Dirty Dog]

Well I was talking about stuff like this;

That's stuff that was published for decades in Martial Arts magazines and books as the fighting applications of Kung Fu, and it very closely resembled the forms.

So why aren't we seeing stuff like that in MMA?

Well, let's just see what we have here...
#1 shows a stance that would be a little difficult to apply while wearing the wrist-wrap gloves that are standard in MMA competition. #2 shows an eye gouge - illegal in pretty much every ruleset. #3 shows a kick to the groin - illegal in pretty much every ruleset. #4 shows what appears to be a small joint manipulation, but it's a bit difficult to see clearly in such a small image - illegal in pretty much every ruleset. #5 shows a strike to the back of the head or spine - illegal in pretty much every ruleset.

[Sarcasm]Gosh... I can't figure out why we're not seeing stuff like that in MMA...[/Sarcasm]

 

[jezr74]

Well I was talking about stuff like this;

That's stuff that was published for decades in Martial Arts magazines and books as the fighting applications of Kung Fu, and it very closely resembled the forms.

So why aren't we seeing stuff like that in MMA?

The first slide has moves maybe good example of stylized technique, yeah can get what your meaning by kung fu styled, but no good in a cage with rules. The second looks no different to what I've seen in UFC style fights constantly, strikes, grabbing arms, knees. I'm not sure I understand what you are thinking it represents?

 

[Hanzou]

Now you are asking the wrong person. I know very little about it but I'm sure my mate Chris will give a complete answer. I am under the impression that he teaches self defence separate to Ninjustsu because Ninjutsu doesn't equip you for that sort of fighting. Perhaps, since you made the statement, you might like to provide the evidence to back it up.

While there's some weapon stuff, there's a lot of unarmed combat.

Which reminds me, you didn't answer my question.

Because this thread needs to get back on track.

 

[Hanzou]

Well, let's just see what we have here...
#1 shows a stance that would be a little difficult to apply while wearing the wrist-wrap gloves that are standard in MMA competition. #2 shows an eye gouge - illegal in pretty much every ruleset. #3 shows a kick to the groin - illegal in pretty much every ruleset. #4 shows what appears to be a small joint manipulation, but it's a bit difficult to see clearly in such a small image - illegal in pretty much every ruleset. #5 shows a strike to the back of the head or spine - illegal in pretty much every ruleset.

[Sarcasm]Gosh... I can't figure out why we're not seeing stuff like that in MMA...[/Sarcasm]

1.You can ask to have the wrist wrap reduced. I'm sure the promoters won't mind.
2.If you have the precision to perform an eye gouge, then why not strike another vital area of the face or head instead?
3. Instead of striking the groin, strike another target in the thigh or knee. Again, if you have that type of opening, why can't you hit a nearby target instead?
4. Wrist locks are not considered small join manipulation.
5. Again, modify by hitting the face, or knee or elbow them in the head instead.

Again, if you have that level of opening to strike those vital areas, you should have the skill to modify your strikes. Additionally, you can choose to modify the wrist wraps, especially if you're using a KF style never seen before in MMA. The wraps are in place to protect the fighter, but if feel that they hinder your ability to fight, you could go without them.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Benson Henderson was a brown belt in bjj two or three years ago. I wouldn't be surprised if he's a black belt by now.


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Yes now he is but he wasn't early on. I believe he was around blue belt when he won the championship. He relied heavily on his striking ability and his wrestling background. Like any mma fighter though you can to diversify and BJJ is great to add to your ground game!

 

[drop bear]

By the way. Sakuraba wasn't a bjjer to my knowledge.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=e6khZnrh4RE

 

[drop bear]

Benson Henderson was a brown belt in bjj two or three years ago. I wouldn't be surprised if he's a black belt by now.


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It also depends where you are from. America has really good base level wrestling Brazil bjj Australia muay Thai. One of the important factors in these tmas are that they are good.
So the best karate can prepare you better than the worst muay Thai.

 

[Dirty Dog]

1.You can ask to have the wrist wrap reduced. I'm sure the promoters won't mind.
2.If you have the precision to perform an eye gouge, then why not strike another vital area of the face or head instead?
3. Instead of striking the groin, strike another target in the thigh or knee. Again, if you have that type of opening, why can't you hit a nearby target instead?
4. Wrist locks are not considered small join manipulation.
5. Again, modify by hitting the face, or knee or elbow them in the head instead.

Again, if you have that level of opening to strike those vital areas, you should have the skill to modify your strikes. Additionally, you can choose to modify the wrist wraps, especially if you're using a KF style never seen before in MMA. The wraps are in place to protect the fighter, but if feel that they hinder your ability to fight, you could go without them.

So... Basically, when you ask why we don't see these things in MMA, what you really mean us "why don't we see completely different things in MMA". Which seems sort of a silly thing to ask.


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.

 

[Tez3]

What some people seem to expect from MMA fighters is to be able to tell specifically every time which technique comes from which TMA, it doesn't work like that. Techniques are picked up and adapted to suit the fighter, they are used, hopefully, seamlessly so that one technique flows into another. You cannot watch a fight sitting there saying 'oh that's a TKD kick, that's a Aikido move' etc. It's an MMA fight, one where a fighter has knowledge of his opponents fighting style and will have prepared for that. In the early days, "back in the day" which I do remember, you could tell which style a fighter had come from but now MMA is taught as an encompassing style in it's own right. We are constantly looking at techniques to use from any style, it may only be one or even part of one technique, it may be more but people should stop trying to see MMA as a one TMA style being used at a time thing, it isn't. It's a meld of many styles ( the name gives it away) see it as a whole rather than it's parts. Oh and try not to think of the UFC as the only place where MMA is fought, I've watched in different capacities thousands of fights and you'd be surprised how many techniques are used by fighters covering a huge range of martial arts styles.

 

[Hanzou]

So... Basically, when you ask why we don't see these things in MMA, what you really mean us "why don't we see completely different things in MMA". Which seems sort of a silly thing to ask.


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.

Why is that a silly thing to ask? If someone is using Praying Mantis Kung Fu in a fight, would they look like those pics from Inside Kung Fu, or would they look more like a Sanshou/Sanda or MMA fighter?

Whenever I see a fight breakout, I never see anyone break out the Mantis or Tiger claw. It's always some crazy kickboxing-like Melee which oftentimes ends up on the ground with someone pummeling on the other person. You see this over and over again in several street fight videos and competition videos across continents and throughout time. From Emin Boztepe vs William Cheung, to those two. Kung Fu masters fighting in the ring in 1952, to two Kung Fu guys fighting in the streets of Hong Kong recently, it all looks very similar, and it looks nothing like what you see demonstrated in Inside Kung Fu, or the Kung Fu forms.

Karate is similar in that regard as well.

Is there an ideal fighting aesthetic on one side, and a more reality based aesthetic on another? In other words, when everything breaks down to pure fighting, does all the fancy hand techniques and stances go out the window and everyone pretty much fights in a very similar fashion (i.e. like a MMA fighter)?