Why do TMAs have more difficulty in the ring/octagon?

[Buka]

 

[seasoned]

Hey guys, just a little friendly advice to keep the conversation toned down a bit. We are here to discuss styles not determine which one is better.

 

[Hong Kong Pooey]

For those that don't accept Emin Boztepe as a credible MAist, check out the comment from the MCMAP instructor around 17:15 in this episode of Human Weapon where he's asked the question about how a professional MMAist would fare against the US marines:

Either he's mistaken, it's false bravado on his part, or the rules/environment in MMA do make a difference.

 

[K-man]

For those that don't accept Emin Boztepe as a credible MAist, check out the comment from the MCMAP instructor around 17:15 in this episode of Human Weapon where he's asked the question about how a professional MMAist would fare against the US marines:

Either he's mistaken, it's false bravado on his part, or the rules/environment in MMA do make a difference.

Funny how in the 'House of Pain' none of them were rolling about on the floor. Must be something to do with the fact that they were training for the real world.
:hmm:

 

[Spinedoc]

For those that don't accept Emin Boztepe as a credible MAist, check out the comment from the MCMAP instructor around 17:15 in this episode of Human Weapon where he's asked the question about how a professional MMAist would fare against the US marines:

Either he's mistaken, it's false bravado on his part, or the rules/environment in MMA do make a difference.

As a former Navy Corpsman that was stationed with the Marines.....let me say a hearty.....THANK YOU!

I'm not sure what the purpose of this discussion even was. MMA is great for a workout, it's great for sport/competition...but that ain't fightin. I've been in a number of real world fights, some in the military, some out...and when there are no rules...things are markedly different. Especially in the military when the other person is most decidedly trying to kill you.

BJJ looks like fun, in fact, recently, I got to play around with a friend who is a blue belt in BJJ. We tried different grabs and attacks, with him responding with BJJ moves, and me responding with Aikido moves. Then we free sparred for a bit. He was really impressed with the aikido, especially, when he got me to the ground, and I managed to get up to seiza and hit him with a kotegaeshi before he could grab me again. I was impressed with some of his maneuvers once he got me all the way down. He was impressed with some of the Aikido takedowns and throws....

Bottom line....we both left with positive impressions of the others martial art. He enjoys competition too, but he was also in the military. He would be one of the first to say that MMA isn't the same as real life fighting.

So, rather than ask a disingenuous question (this thread) like "How come some martial arts don't do as well in a competition that has rules that favor other martial arts"

Why not focus on the fact that people are learning them at all....or, that fighting is not always physical (I would argue that it is mostly not physical)....or, that no one really, ever, EVER wins a fight....or, that some of us have no desire to EVER fight in a competition, and take martial arts for other reasons.

Just my brief thoughts....

Mike

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I have a lot of respect for Wing Chun. When I was in College oh so many moons ago.(like a hell of a long time ago) I just wanted to try some thing different so enrolled in a semester Karate class and I studied a little bit of Wing Chun at a local school in Saginaw. (just a tiny weeny bit) The instructor was really good but that is not what impressed me. One time a new guy came in and he was a kickboxer. I could relate because well I had already had almost 9 kickboxing fights at this time. Anyways, he wasn't really there to train but to see how he would fair. The Wing Chun instructor just let it happen with one of his guy's. Full on kickboxing vs. wing chun no pads. Total dismantle, total beat down of the kickboxer by the Wing Chun guy. Wasn't even close. That guy worked his Wing Chun real well. So yes the right guy practicing Wing Chun should be respected. It can work just fine but like any system will depend on the individual.

So why didn't I stay. Frankly the Wing Chun I learned in that very brief time did not mesh well with my movement. Mainly my foot work. l could see this right from the get go. So I moved on! Though I did take a little bit of that rapid fire striking approach and appropriated it. Still in my mind there is no doubt Wing Chun can be effective!

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

For those that don't accept Emin Boztepe as a credible MAist, check out the comment from the MCMAP instructor around 17:15 in this episode of Human Weapon where he's asked the question about how a professional MMAist would fare against the US marines:

Either he's mistaken, it's false bravado on his part, or the rules/environment in MMA do make a difference.

I know I could not access the video here in Nevada so I found another link:

[video]http://www.veoh.com/watch/v20570968zbTJxhNg?h1=Human+Weapon+MCMAP[/video]

 

[Hanzou]

Oh poleeese! This is nothing like the Ki master crap. You are demeaning another style yet again and trying to dismiss it by putting it up against fake crap. The biomechanics he had demonstrating are straight forward. You just can't be bothered looking at it because you know that all your training is world best practice.

If you're claiming that your hand techniques are superior to boxing, yet aren't willing to test that claim against professional athletes who use those techniques, how is it any different than the ki-master? You're still making wildly baseless claims with nothing to substantiate your claims. You're also deluding your student into a false sense of security and technical ability.

I have news for you. It us painfully obvious that you haven't seen much outside your own small arena. The fact that you can't discuss a particular technique without linking it to totally unrelated BS invalidates your entire argument.

Please indicate where that took place.

Then you dredge out a 30 year old video to demonstrate what a person is doing now? How does that work? And to suggest that 6 years of training gives a lot of experience in a TMA again demonstrates your ignorance of a TMA.

So that's what a traditional stylist fights like after 6 years of training? Okay...

I'm pretty sure Boztepe was instructing at that point. Cheung was definitely teaching at that point. Neither looked very impressive in that vid.

And your Mythbusters red herring ...
You made a claim that was demonstrably false about what they examined. Nobody at anytime that I am aware has ever suggested that a one inch punch was as powerful as a fully fledged punch. Yet because the one inch punch delivers about half the power you dismiss it out of sight. That wasn't what was being examined. What was being examined was, is the one inch punch effective? Answer, yes. As to the difference between knocking down and knocking out, I would suggest it is requires less power to knock out than knock down if you strike the right spot, but what would I know, I have never trained in MMA.

I do believe that the test for the one inch punch was that a Ninja could knock someone out with it. That sort of indicates that it's supposed to be as powerful as a regular punch. Btw, it's not hard to knock someone down with a blow when they're standing in front of you and not doing anything. I'd like to see this stuff working with a moving, reactive opponent.

I guess that's too much to ask for....

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

All the respect in the world for the Marine Corp Martial Arts Program!

 

[K-man]

If you're claiming that your hand techniques are superior to boxing, yet aren't willing to test that claim against professional athletes who use those techniques, how is it any different than the ki-master? You're still making wildly baseless claims with nothing to substantiate your claims. You're also deluding your student into a false sense of security and technical ability.

Once again you are claiming that your technique cannot be improved if you dismiss the possibility there is a better way of striking. Boxers are specialist punchers, so are karateka. I have been instructed by some of the best guys around, people who have fought in the ring. Please explain why I need to do that. And thank you for the personal attack. I am not deluding anyone, particularly my students. Please keep you comments on my ability to yourself. You have no idea of my ability.

Originally posted by Hanzou
Please indicate where that took place.

So again, why isn't Boztepe going out into the MA world and demonstrating this awesome technique on professional fighters, make himself a gazillionaire, and make WC the premiere striking art on the planet?


It's the exact same nonsense as that Ki-master who could destroy people from 20 feet away. When the poop hits the fan and these guys actually have to fight someone, none of this stuff comes out for display

.

I think that is a reasonable example.

Originally posted by Hanzou
So that's what a traditional stylist fights like after 6 years of training? Okay...

I'm pretty sure Boztepe was instructing at that point. Cheung was definitely teaching at that point. Neither looked very impressive in that vid.

Cheung was claiming to be the best WC fighter in the world. Obviously neither had trained for the ground. In Boztepe's case he acknowledged that and changed his training. Obviously you still choose to ignore that fact. Six years training to be an expert? Really? I have 8 years Aikido and recognise my limitations. I wouldn't even take an Aikido class unless there was no one else more experienced. In my experience it is about 10 years against non-compliant partners to BJJ black. Why would a TMA be faster to gain a similar degree of competence?

Originally posted by Hanzou
I do believe that the test for the one inch punch was that a Ninja could knock someone out with it. That sort of indicates that it's supposed to be as powerful as a regular punch. Btw, it's not hard to knock someone down with a blow when they're standing in front of you and not doing anything. I'd like to see this stuff working with a moving, reactive opponent.

I guess that's too much to ask for....

No it doesn't indicate that at all. You are making an assumption. A one inch punch is a useful tool in your armoury. We were shown its effectiveness in Okinawa at the Jundokan. It is not exclusively WC. But no one I have met would claim it to be more powerful than a full blooded punch from a longer range. The fact that you might even think that they were claiming that means you have little knowledge of biomechanics. As to whether it is working against a moving opponent, fine, but that is not what this demonstration was about. We could change the scenario and say what if Chuck Liddell fought Randy Couture on ice in a Blizzard. Hypothesise all you like. It just didn't happen!

 

[Hanzou]

Once again you are claiming that your technique cannot be improved if you dismiss the possibility there is a better way of striking. Boxers are specialist punchers, so are karateka.

Where is the evidence that Boztepe's method is the better way of striking? He has an interesting theory, but where's the evidence of him actually defeating professional fighters using those hand techniques? Are we supposed to just take his word for it? Why?

I have been instructed by some of the best guys around, people who have fought in the ring. Please explain why I need to do that.

And that is relevant because......?

And thank you for the personal attack. I am not deluding anyone, particularly my students. Please keep you comments on my ability to yourself. You have no idea of my ability.

I was talking about Boztepe.

Cheung was claiming to be the best WC fighter in the world. Obviously neither had trained for the ground. In Boztepe's case he acknowledged that and changed his training. Obviously you still choose to ignore that fact. Six years training to be an expert? Really? I have 8 years Aikido and recognise my limitations. I wouldn't even take an Aikido class unless there was no one else more experienced. In my experience it is about 10 years against non-compliant partners to BJJ black. Why would a TMA be faster to gain a similar degree of competence?

Its not about being an expert, it's about being able to showcase your training and skill after six years of study. I seriously doubt that a Bjj practitioner after 6 years of training couldn't be able to perform Bjj skills in a confrontation or streetlight.

No it doesn't indicate that at all. You are making an assumption. A one inch punch is a useful tool in your armoury. We were shown its effectiveness in Okinawa at the Jundokan. It is not exclusively WC. But no one I have met would claim it to be more powerful than a full blooded punch from a longer range. The fact that you might even think that they were claiming that means you have little knowledge of biomechanics. As to whether it is working against a moving opponent, fine, but that is not what this demonstration was about. We could change the scenario and say what if Chuck Liddell fought Randy Couture on ice in a Blizzard. Hypothesise all you like. It just didn't happen!

Yes, the demonstration was to see if a one inch punch had enough power to knock someone out. It failed the test. Hence why it got plausible instead of fact.

 

[Hanzou]

For those that don't accept Emin Boztepe as a credible MAist, check out the comment from the MCMAP instructor around 17:15 in this episode of Human Weapon where he's asked the question about how a professional MMAist would fare against the US marines:

Either he's mistaken, it's false bravado on his part, or the rules/environment in MMA do make a difference.

What does that have to do with Boztepe?

 

[Flying Crane]

Testing in some kind of competition is only one way to do it.

bingo. that's my whole point. It's only ONE way. Not THE ONLY way.

and why are so many people so concerned with what everyone else is doing? take care of yourself. I do the same.

 

[Hanzou]

bingo. that's my whole point. It's only ONE way. Not THE ONLY way.

It's the safest way though. Your other options are dojo storming or getting into street fights.

If someone asked me if Bjj can help a smaller person take out a bigger, or more muscular person, I have lots of fight footage I can show where Bjj guys (and gals) do exactly that.

If someone asked the same of a Kung Fu, Aikido, or Karate style, it would be a bit harder to find examples.

 

[Steve]

bingo. that's my whole point. It's only ONE way. Not THE ONLY way.

and why are so many people so concerned with what everyone else is doing? take care of yourself. I do the same.

I agree to an extent. I don't stress about this stuff. But when it comes up in a thread like this, I do have concerns that people might not be learning what they think they're learning. And the stakes are high in self defense training.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk H

 

[K-man]

Where is the evidence that Boztepe's method is the better way of striking? He has an interesting theory, but where's the evidence of him actually defeating professional fighters using those hand techniques? Are we supposed to just take his word for it? Why?

You weren't addressing that at Boztepe. It was addressed at me.

Posted by Hanzou
If you're claiming that your hand techniques are superior to boxing, yet aren't willing to test that claim against professional athletes who use those techniques, how is it any different than the ki-master? You're still making wildly baseless claims with nothing to substantiate your claims. You're also deluding your student into a false sense of security and technical ability.

And that is relevant because......?

I teach a similar strike as do many other instructors I know.

I was talking about Boztepe.

Then perhaps you should make that clear in your post.

Its not about being an expert, it's about being able to showcase your training and skill after six years of study. I seriously doubt that a Bjj practitioner after 6 years of training couldn't be able to perform Bjj skills in a confrontation or streetlight.

So you are honestly suggesting a BJJ practitioner after 6 years training could match someone like Royce Gracie at his peak or even now? :hmm:

Yes, the demonstration was to see if a one inch punch had enough power to knock someone out. It failed the test. Hence why it got plausible instead of fact.

I can't find the episode on YouTube so don't know what they were actually trying to disprove. Obviously they didn't disprove it or they would have called it a myth. I recall seeing some show on TV where they measured the power of a one inch punch but can't find it on YouTube either.

 

[Hanzou]

You weren't addressing that at Boztepe. It was addressed at me.

Again, I was talking about Boztepe. I compared him to the Ki-master, and I pointed out the crap he put in his videos. Why in the world would that be about you when you never claimed that your style had more power and better technique than boxing and karate?

Now please answer the question;

Where is the evidence that Boztepe's method is the better way of striking? He has an interesting theory, but where's the evidence of him actually defeating professional fighters using those hand techniques? Are we supposed to just take his word for it? Why?

 

[K-man]

Again, I was talking about Boztepe. I compared him to the Ki-master, and I pointed out the crap he put in his videos. Why in the world would that be about you when you never claimed that your style had more power and better technique than boxing and karate?

Now please answer the question;

Where is the evidence that Boztepe's method is the better way of striking? He has an interesting theory, but where's the evidence of him actually defeating professional fighters using those hand techniques? Are we supposed to just take his word for it? Why?

Firstly I don't think you have the knowledge to label anything crap and secondly, after watching the video again, I could find nowhere where he claimed his punch was better than any other style's punch. He explained the WC punch. He didn't make any claims so what has he got to prove? And again, you resort to: 'if it's not demonstrated in MMA competition it is BS'. Well as we all know, most practitioners of martial arts have no interest in competing against professional fighters and I suspect they couldn't give a rat's about what you think of their technique either.

So having addressed your questions perhaps you could have the curtesy to answer the ones that I ask you, instead of just ignoring them.

 

[drop bear]

I know I could not access the video here in Nevada so I found another link:

[video]http://www.veoh.com/watch/v20570968zbTJxhNg?h1=Human+Weapon+MCMAP[/video]

I loled hard at that when I originally saw it. He picked the wrong martial artist.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dKw3YaWxzRI

Yep. Ex soldier.

 

[drop bear]

I chose that video because it points out the flaws in the method better than I would be able to in a post on the forum.

Looking at your video above, Boztepe is again stating that the Wing Chun method is superior to the boxing method.

I ask again, if this method is so much better than what professional fighters are doing, why isn't this guy doing demonstrations showcasing his skill against professional fighters?

This is yet another example of a "crazy claim" by Boztepe.

It is not that so much. Boxers use that method as well. They don't go around pushing people with their punches either.

Anyhoo. James te huna did a training promo once that I can't find where he actually mentioned the vertical fist as part of his training. With the statement thumb up for speed thumb down for authority. That chun punch is a boxing/MMA punch.

You can see him banging them off against the pads.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RSNm8M9KvPQ

The concept is seen a bit in amature boxing more than professional boxing.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=W2t5L7vo7vU

We use it for MMA because the elbows can be used a bit more readily to block takedowns.

It is more the case that the guy is slightly mis representing boxing. Rather than trying to present that he has a super secret system that works but nobody has adopted. He also ignores a whole system that boxers use to avoid being punched that is also incorporated into the system of boxing.

One of the most glaring ones is that a boxer would not be standing in the pocket trading with a guy unless he is prepared to be punched a lot.