Why do so many Westerners have a "Paris Syndrome" to style's origin country (often laser focused)?

[skribs]

Really? I was taught geography at school, and it's part of the national curriculum here and in Europe. We'd learn about other cultures in primary school ie from age four and half. Ireland was never about drunks fighting for us but of bombs, shootings and terrorism which has stopped to a certain extent but still happens.

Also keep in mind that British history is about colonization. Up until very recently, Britain owned many parts of the world.

 

[Tez3]

Also keep in mind that British history is about colonization. Up until very recently, Britain owned many parts of the world.

Yeah but unlike the USA we don't own anything anymore, not that we actually had as much as people especially Americans think, France, Spain, Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium etc had as much. Each country that was a British colony is now independent so you have anomalies like the independent Samoa and the American owned Samoa, one of the many colonies the US still has.

 

[Tez3]

On your side of the pond, it's going to be way different due to the geographical proximity between the UK and Ireland... and the intimate history between the two countries.

We're aware of the Troubles here as well, but the Troubles haven't defined the American perception of Ireland the way it may have for Brits.

However the Troubles were and are real, drunk fighting Irishman aren't. That was the real point.

 

[skribs]

However the Troubles were and are real, drunk fighting Irishman aren't. That was the real point.

I'm pretty sure drunk fighting Irishmen are real. Conor McGregor sucker punching someone over not trying his whiskey springs to mind.

Yeah but unlike the USA we don't own anything anymore, not that we actually had as much as people especially Americans think, France, Spain, Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium etc had as much. Each country that was a British colony is now independent so you have anomalies like the independent Samoa and the American owned Samoa, one of the many colonies the US still has.

Specifically regarding China, the UK owned Hong Kong until 22 years ago. That happened while I was in elementary school. Based on how long you've been on this forum, I'm going to guess it happened during your lifetime, too. Which is why some of that might be more salient for a British child to learn than an American child.

 

[Tez3]

I'm pretty sure drunk fighting Irishmen are real. Conor McGregor sucker punching someone over not trying his whiskey springs to mind.



Specifically regarding China, the UK owned Hong Kong until 22 years ago. That happened while I was in elementary school. Based on how long you've been on this forum, I'm going to guess it happened during your lifetime, too. Which is why some of that might be more salient for a British child to learn than an American child.

Actually we didn't own Hong Kong, it was leased from China in 1898 for 99 years so when the lease was up Hong Kong went back to China on 1 July 1997. From 1941 to 1945 the Japanese occupied Hong Kong. Americans should learn about their involvement in China's history which includes Hong Kong.

You have skewed my comment about drunk Irishmen fighting, the original comment I was replying to said ' Ireland….full of drunken Irishmen fighting' which of course it's not, Conor doesn't represent all Irishmen, for example his coach John is a real gentleman and a sweetheart.

 

[skribs]

Actually we didn't own Hong Kong, it was leased from China in 1898 for 99 years so when the lease was up Hong Kong went back to China on 1 July 1997. From 1941 to 1945 the Japanese occupied Hong Kong. Americans should learn about their involvement in China's history which includes Hong Kong.

That's kind of my point. That's all British history. Not American history.

Not that Americans shouldn't learn it. There's only so much history you can teach in general education, though.

 

[Rusty B]

The only notable part that the US played in Western imperialism in China concerned Taiwan.

As far as US involvement in the Boxer Rebellion and the events leading up to it? Just barely enough for others to tell us "you too."

 

[Tez3]

That's kind of my point. That's all British history. Not American history.

Not that Americans shouldn't learn it. There's only so much history you can teach in general education, though.

So you think the Americans didn't have anything going on in China? You do need to learn your history if you think that.

You've managed to twist something that was about geography ie learning about countries, their culture etc into something about why Americans shouldn't learn history of other places, Interesting.

The only notable part that the US played in Western imperialism in China concerned Taiwan.

As far as US involvement in the Boxer Rebellion and the events leading up to it? Just barely enough for others to tell us "you too."

The Complicated History of U.S. Relations with China

 

[Rusty B]

The Complicated History of U.S. Relations with China

This link supports exactly what I said, and even moreso. Not only did the US not have any imperial ambitions in China... but the article even goes on to say that it supported China's independence in the rise of European and Japanese imperialism.

The Chinese Exclusion Act was mentioned... however, that was domestic policy.

 

[Tez3]

This link supports exactly what I said, and even moreso. Not only did the US not have any imperial ambitions in China... but the article even goes on to say that it supported China's independence in the rise of European and Japanese imperialism.

The Chinese Exclusion Act was mentioned... however, that was domestic policy.

So how is this anything to do with knowing about the cultures of other countries, according to you and the other poster if you don't have any 'imperialistic history' with a country you don't learn anything about it! I don't think you realised that the other poster, for reasons of his own and not for the first time is having a dig with all this 'colonial and imperialistic' stuff at me. Tiresome but there you are. We don't learn geography or history here in Europe because we had colonies we learn them because it's why you go to school, to be educated!
The US has a history with China, you can't deny it, it doesn't matter whether it wanted it as a colony or not, there is no reason anyway not to learn about Chinese history as we did, it is one of the oldest civilisation on the planet and brought you a great many things you wouldn't have had if they hadn't existed, I suppose you didn't learn about the Greeks or Romans either.

 

[Rusty B]

So how is this anything to do with knowing about the cultures of other countries, according to you and the other poster if you don't have any 'imperialistic history' with a country you don't learn anything about it!

This is a non-sequitur. But...

I don't think you realised that the other poster, for reasons of his own and not for the first time is having a dig with all this 'colonial and imperialistic' stuff at me. Tiresome but there you are. We don't learn geography or history here in Europe because we had colonies we learn them because it's why you go to school, to be educated!
The US has a history with China, you can't deny it, it doesn't matter whether it wanted it as a colony or not, there is no reason anyway not to learn about Chinese history as we did, it is one of the oldest civilisation on the planet and brought you a great many things you wouldn't have had if they hadn't existed, I suppose you didn't learn about the Greeks or Romans either.

It appears that what you're trying to do is lure me into a di¢k-measuring contest on US vs UK educational systems. Even if I had the inclination to entertain such idiocy (I don't), I would have to pretend to know what the British educational system does and does not teach. You know... kind of like how you're doing with the American educational system.

 

[Tez3]

This is a non-sequitur. But...



It appears that what you're trying to do is lure me into a di¢k-measuring contest on US vs UK educational systems. Even if I had the inclination to entertain such idiocy (I don't), I would have to pretend to know what the British educational system does and does not teach. You know... kind of like how you're doing with the American educational system.

Don't be silly, I'm telling you that the other poster has a thing about the UK and me. And no I'm not telling you anything about the American educational system, I'm telling you that British history is not what this poster thinks it is. He is trying to goad me into an argument which instead is the one you are getting into.

Also keep in mind that British history is about colonization. Up until very recently, Britain owned many parts of the world.

Britain has been a colony, it's been invaded, it's been settled by many different people. It has fought wars with and against many people as happens with very old countries, it's been at war with the countries that make up the UK and has been under threat of invasions many times. It's made peace with many countries too and the colonies can't be all bad if they all remain in the Commonwealth ( that includes two countries who weren't British colonies) the 'British empire' only lasted a couple of hundred years and out of a few thousand years history that isn't much but somehow that's what one poster wants to focus on colonisation. However as I said the UK has no colonies now unlike the USA who won't give independence to theirs. You have 14 territories under your control and are claiming 2 more, so an argument about colonisation is probably not going to end well on here as it will turn political something not allowed.

The USA has relationships with many countries including China, that is what I'm telling you, don't fall into the trap of thinking history is only about wars, colonisation and conflicts. As I posted, the US has a history with China, it doesn't negate that history just because it didn't want it as a colony, history is about far more.

 

[Tez3]

This is a non-sequitur. But...



It appears that what you're trying to do is lure me into a di¢k-measuring contest on US vs UK educational systems. Even if I had the inclination to entertain such idiocy (I don't), I would have to pretend to know what the British educational system does and does not teach. You know... kind of like how you're doing with the American educational system.

Oh and I'm positive that your dick would be far larger than my non existent one. My posts have nothing to do with educational systems btw.

 

[Rusty B]

Britain has been a colony, it's been invaded, it's been settled by many different people.

This is a half-truth, if you don't put into proper context.

If we're specifically talking about the English people (who were not present during Roman conquest), they've never really been conquered or colonized. Invaded by Germany during World War II? Sure, but that's not the same as being colonized.

The last Anglo-Saxon King being overthrown by the Normans? That's probably the closest claim you've got, but it didn't result in the general English population being displaced or oppressed by Normans.

However as I said the UK has no colonies now unlike the USA who won't give independence to theirs. You have 14 territories under your control and are claiming 2 more, so an argument about colonisation is probably not going to end well on here as it will turn political something not allowed.

Yes the UK does; it's called The Commonwealth of Nations. What makes this even more sinister is that the member nations are nominally independent, which legally absolves the British government from having to provide economic safety nets to the citizens of the poorer countries.

If you are poor in Puerto Rico, Guam, or any other US territory; you're entitled to the same public assistance (and standard of living that comes with it) as any other US citizen.

Even if, for the sake of argument, we did not include the Commonwealth of Nations... the world is fully aware of the independence movement in Scotland.

Also, much of the reason why these places remain US territories is because the people want to be US citizens. Kind of like the case with Northern Ireland..

By the way, has the UK come to an agreement with Argentina over the Falkland islands yet?

 

[Rusty B]

By the way, this is not be speaking ill of the UK. What I am saying, however, is that neither county can claim to be victims of anything.

If the Brits want to claim German invasion during World War II, then Americans can claim the same from Japan.

I will say, however, that China is not our mess.

You could say that Korea is (but then again, would you REALLY wish that the US never made an attempt to stop the Kim family from ruling the entire peninsula?), you could say that Vietnam is (although the final outcome was going to happen whether the US was involved or not).

But not China.

 

[skribs]

So you think the Americans didn't have anything going on in China? You do need to learn your history if you think that.

You've managed to twist something that was about geography ie learning about countries, their culture etc into something about why Americans shouldn't learn history of other places, Interesting.



The Complicated History of U.S. Relations with China

Who do you think I know better, my mother or the checker at my grocery store? Who is it more important for me to know what's going on in their lives? Who is it more important for me to learn life lessons from? I have a relationship with both. My mother is obviously my Mom, and I have a customer-business relationship with the checker at my grocery store. Objectively, both people are equally important. But that doesn't change the fact that for me, my Mom is significantly more important.

This is the point. Yes, the US has some history with China. Not as much as the UK. So it makes more sense for UK-Chinese relations to be a consideration when teaching UK history more than US-Chinese relations in US history.

 

[Tez3]

nvaded by Germany during World War II?

You are joking aren't you?

Yes the UK does; it's called The Commonwealth of Nations. What makes this even more sinister is that the member nations are nominally independent, which legally absolves the British government from having to provide economic safety nets to the citizens of the poorer countries.

They are more than nominally independent, they are totally independent and they don't have to join. If you think India isn't independent then you are very much mistaken. You don't understand this at all do you? also the British do provide a huge amount of aid as does the other Commonwealth countries to any and all countries that need it. You have seriously misconstrued what the Commonwealth is and likely to upset many citizens of many countries. Our work | The Commonwealth

I will say, however, that China is not our mess.

Again, you aren't understanding this are you? You are jumping to conclusions, making 2 and 2 make 5. Do you think history is all about wars? The USA has a history of trading with China. In the 1600s CE, the early Americans would be importing silk, tea, sandalwood and porcelain from China, American trade missions were in China in 1784CE. The Americans would export furs and cotton.

The Chinese emperor, starting in the late 1700s, prohibited the importation of opium into the country so happened was that the smuggling trade sprang up and the westerners, with the British in the lead, would bring in increasing quantities of opium. The Chinese smugglers, were paying huge quantities of silver to get opium, and the British and the Americans used that to turn around and purchase Chinese goods. The Americans were earning millions of dollars, the British were earning tens of millions of dollars, and addiction was growing in China. You need to look up Robert Morris, the link between America and China is far stronger than you imagine. It's not all about wars and certainly not all about modern day governments, they will be the history of the future.

You do know what history is right?

 

[Tez3]

Who do you think I know better, my mother or the checker at my grocery store? Who is it more important for me to know what's going on in their lives? Who is it more important for me to learn life lessons from? I have a relationship with both. My mother is obviously my Mom, and I have a customer-business relationship with the checker at my grocery store. Objectively, both people are equally important. But that doesn't change the fact that for me, my Mom is significantly more important.

This is the point. Yes, the US has some history with China. Not as much as the UK. So it makes more sense for UK-Chinese relations to be a consideration when teaching UK history more than US-Chinese relations in US history.

Not really, India not China has always been the focus of British interactions in Asia, the East India Company for example but at least you have the grace to realise that the US does have a history with China, instead of leaping to conclusions about wars.
This is history, Two Hundred Years of U.S. Trade with China (1784-1984) | Asia for Educators | Columbia University

 

[Rusty B]

You are joking aren't you?

Joking? Was the Battle of Britain in 1940 a joke to you?

You do know what history is, right?

I'm fairly certain that your compatriots who lost loved ones then wouldn't take very kindly to you referring it as a "joke."

They are more than nominally independent, they are totally independent and they don't have to join. If you think India isn't independent then you are very much mistaken. You don't understand this at all do you? also the British do provide a huge amount of aid as does the other Commonwealth countries to any and all countries that need it. You have seriously misconstrued what the Commonwealth is and likely to upset many citizens of many countries. Our work | The Commonwealth

Thank you for proving my point. Economic aid? That is not the same thing as giving British citizenship and/or the same rights and benefits as British citizens. A poor man in Jamaica is not the same as a poor man in the UK. Not even close.

However, a poor man in American Samoa IS the same as a poor man in the US.

Again you aren't understanding this are you? You are jumping to conclusions, making 2 and 2 make 5. Do you think history is all about wars? The USA has a history of trading with China. In the 1600s CE, the early Americans would be importing silk, tea, sandalwood and porcelain from China, American trade missions were in China in 1784CE. The Americans would export furs and cotton.

The Chinese emperor, starting in the late 1700s, prohibited the importation of opium into the country so happened was that the smuggling trade sprang up and the westerners, with the British in the lead, would bring in increasing quantities of opium. The Chinese smugglers, were paying huge quantities of silver to get opium, and the British and the Americans used that to turn around and purchase Chinese goods. The Americans were earning millions of dollars, the British were earning tens of millions of dollars, and addiction was growing in China. You need to look up Robert Morris, the link between America and China is far stronger than you imagine. It's not all about wars and certainly not all about modern day governments, they will be the history of the future.

You do know what history is right?

Not all history happens at the business end of a rifle, but all the bad history for which a country is held liable does. If I recall correctly, the American involvement in the Boxer Rebellion merely consisted of one battalion of Marines. That's really not enough for you to drag us down with you.

 

[Tez3]

Invaded by Germany during World War II? Sure, but that's not the same as being colonized.

You know we weren't invaded right? The Battle of Britain wasn't an invasion btw and yes I do know more about it than you obviously do, I an ex RAF and have had the honour to work with several BoB pilots.

That is not the same thing as giving British citizenship and/or the same rights and benefits as British citizens.

Commonwealth countries are sovereign countries with their own citizens, their own governments


and their own passports, why would they be given British passports?

However, a poor man in American Samoa IS the same as a poor man in the US.

Well no, American Samoans did not participate in the November 8, 2016, general election because it is a territory and not a state. So no voting for their head of state.

A poor man in Jamaica is not the same as a poor man in the UK. Not even close.

Jamaica is an independent country, a poor man can vote for his own government and claim his own passport. It is the Jamaican governments responsibility to look after it's citizens. Government of Jamaica Portal - GOV.JM | Home

Ministries - Jamaica Information Service

Not all history happens at the business end of a rifle, but all the bad history for which a country is held liable does. If I recall correctly, the American involvement in the Boxer Rebellion merely consisted of one battalion of Marines. That's really not enough for you to drag us down with you.

As well as not understanding context you seem to have a huge chip on your shoulder. How strange. perhaps if you understood history better you wouldn't be so defensive. There isn't 'bad' history, there's just history. As you brought it up not I try this. China Relief Expedition

As for your ideas on 'English' history well that's just amusing.